Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[tlcya]

@Niner are you talking about the jury field trip? I don't believe Judge Gull has ruled on the jury viewing crime scene. The prosecution has objected but I thought she would rule on that after the jury is seated. Unless I missed a filing or docket entry I think that is still up in the air.

 

[iamshadow21]

@Vern or @steeltowngirl (seems you access) - but I saw an article (could not access) entitled where the Judge denied the jury viewing - is that in the docket yet? TIA!
or did I miss a post on that...

Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

A judge has ruled that the jury in the Delphi Murders trial will not visit the crime scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were killed in 2017.

www.starcitytv.com

 

[ClearAhead]

Because he had to get there to get the lay of the land and see who was about. He looked completely harmless standing out on platform one watching the fish.

He couldn’t follow them because it was too risky if other people were about, and they could change routes or ask for help. The Bridge was the perfect opportunity, as he knew they would be completely alone and defenseless without any chance of help.

Moo

RA was already familiar with the lay of the land as he lived close to it for years. It was known to be a place where young people frequented, also a day off from school so it wouldn’t have been at all unusual to find teens there if one was on the lookout.

Father of Libby’s mom -

Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens: I know she fought killer

Dennis Bridge, 59, lost granddaughter Liberty German 14, when she and friend Abigail Williams were murdered on a hike outside Delphi, Indiana. He tells DailyMail.com she would have 'put up a fight'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Dennis Bridge said the local area was a place where 'kids play until sunset and then they come home' and that he believed the Monon High Bridge was a 'hangout'.

From the same article, sadly we now know this to be true
The grandfather of one of the teens found murdered in rural Indiana believes his 'strong-willed girl' put up a fight for her life.

 

[steeltowngirl]

@Vern or @steeltowngirl (seems you access) - but I saw an article (could not access) entitled where the Judge denied the jury viewing - is that in the docket yet? TIA!
or did I miss a post on that...

Hi @Niner
I can only see what’s publicly visible on Indiana Case search.

An Order of denial could be this order, but I am unsure.

Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 9/30/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Stacey Lynn Diener;Jennifer Jones Auger;James David Luttrull​

[td]

10/01/2024​

[/td]​

 

[tlcya]

Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

A judge has ruled that the jury in the Delphi Murders trial will not visit the crime scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were killed in 2017.

www.starcitytv.com

thank you for this. wow. I get the reasoning that probably went into this decision but am sort of surprised since she previously had said she would wait to rule on it.

 

[AugustWest]

LE was called to the Allen residence in 2015 for a domestic disturbance, IIRC KA took him to the hospital. I think there will be other things coming out at trial that may surprise us.

JMO

In order for other things to come out at trial, it must be relevant. Relevance is defined as such (in terms of evidentiary law):

Evidence is relevant if:

(a) it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence; and

(b) the fact is of consequence in determining the action.

Rule 401. Test for Relevant Evidence

www.law.cornell.edu

What occurred in 2015 is of no consequence in determining whether RA killed A & L. It makes it no more or less probable he did so, either. Thus, it is not relevant, and thus would not be introduced at trial.

 

[AugustWest]

@Vern or @steeltowngirl (seems you access) - but I saw an article (could not access) entitled where the Judge denied the jury viewing - is that in the docket yet? TIA!
or did I miss a post on that...

@Niner I'm almost 100% positive that article is incorrect. As @tlcya has stated, Judge Gull has taken that issue under advisement.

 

[tlcya]

@Niner I'm almost 100% positive that article is incorrect. As @tlcya has stated, Judge Gull has taken that issue under advisement.

Special Judge Fran Gull took the defense motion under advisement pending the state’s response and a hearing to be conducted once jury selection wraps up.
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/delp...efense-request-to-take-jurors-to-crime-scene/

In a recent decision for the upcoming Delphi Murders trial, the judge has denied a request from the defense to allow the jury to visit the scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were murdered in 2017.
Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

both articles were published October 1.

I agree, I think Star City is wrong.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Special Judge Fran Gull took the defense motion under advisement pending the state’s response and a hearing to be conducted once jury selection wraps up.
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/delp...efense-request-to-take-jurors-to-crime-scene/

In a recent decision for the upcoming Delphi Murders trial, the judge has denied a request from the defense to allow the jury to visit the scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were murdered in 2017.
Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

both articles were published October 1.

I agree, I think Star City is wrong.

I emailed Star City to clarify or provide a source. I will report back if they respond.

 

[somequestions]

A Royal Flush.

Or the prosecution has a busted straight.

I really do not think LE had much more on Richard Allen when they arrested him than what you read in the PCA. They do have one piece of evidence, the unspent cartridge that toolmark analysis places his gun at the crime scene.

I still think a conviction is likely though if the jury finds the confessions genuine. I think it will be difficult for a jury that will probably have mothers and fathers on it to find him not guilty. The number one confession will be Richard Allen admitting to being the bridge guy from Liberty German's phone video, if he confessed to that.

 

[girlhasnoname]

In order for other things to come out at trial, it must be relevant. Relevance is defined as such (in terms of evidentiary law):

Rule 401. Test for Relevant Evidence

www.law.cornell.edu

What occurred in 2015 is of no consequence in determining whether RA killed A & L. It makes it no more or less probable he did so, either. Thus, it is not relevant, and thus would not be introduced at trial.

I was replying to the OP who said RA had no prior police record. He did have LE called to his home for a domestic disturbance in 2015, I did not state that specific event would come into play during this trial, but who knows if anything else has happened that would.

MOO

 

[AugustWest]

I was replying to the OP who said RA had no prior police record. He did have LE called to his home for a domestic disturbance in 2015, I did not state that specific event would come into play during this trial, but who knows if anything else has happened that would.

MOO

Prior bad acts, which are basically what you are referring to, are inadmissible. Not only for relevance, but there is another rule on the matter in evidentiary law. See Rule 404:

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

www.law.cornell.edu

The only way that type of evidence is admissible is if, first, a defendant introduces evidence of his/her good character. Then, a prosecution could use evidence of prior bad acts to rebut/impeach the evidence of a defendant's good character. This is what most posters here would be familiar with as a defendant "opening the door."

I am posting this information not only for your benefit, but for others, so they understand why prior convictions and the like are not likely to be used at trial.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

You could very well be correct SSN about it being a random act by RA. KAK is a disgusting CSAM operator and a lying liar who lies, with all the reasons in the world to play games with LE in hopes of getting a deal, or a reduction in sentencing.

LE obviously looked heavily into him and didn't make a direct connection because he got no breaks or sentence reduction and his first Appeal was denied, unless there is bombshell info. by the State we don't know of yet.

I'm still of the belief somehow and someway, RA knew L&A were going to be there that day. I try and talk myself out of it daily lol, but it just seems too coincidental. IDK, that is one of the biggest questions I have, which hopefully we will find out at trial.

If RA just randomly set out that day looking for a victim, stumbled onto Abby and Libby and killed them in such a brutal fashion makes it even scarier to me. That and my 'gut instinct' thing keeps me just on the side of it being planned ahead of time.

Regardless, I believe BG=RA=Killer of Abby and Libby and I hope we find out how that actually happened, not the CS details, but whether RA had previous communication with one of them or just followed them randomly.

JMO

Yes.
I hope we get a definitive answer to that.
Of course, if RA would, or be allowed to, plead guilty by his defense team, he could put a quick end to all of our speculation

 

[girlhasnoname]

Prior bad acts, which are basically what you are referring to, are inadmissible. Not only for relevance, but there is another rule on the matter in evidentiary law. See Rule 404:

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

www.law.cornell.edu

The only way that type of evidence is admissible is if, first, a defendant introduces evidence of his/her good character. Then, a prosecution could use evidence of prior bad acts to rebut/impeach the evidence of a defendant's good character. This is what most posters here would be familiar with as a defendant "opening the door."

I am posting this information not only for your benefit, but for others, so they understand why prior convictions and the like are not likely to be used at trial.

Saw a lot of arguing by the Defense re: Rule 404 in the Murdaugh case, but ultimately Judge Newman did allow some of it in as it went to the Defendants criminal acts in the homicide and financial trials.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Prior bad acts, which are basically what you are referring to, are inadmissible. Not only for relevance, but there is another rule on the matter in evidentiary law. See Rule 404:

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

www.law.cornell.edu

The only way that type of evidence is admissible is if, first, a defendant introduces evidence of his/her good character. Then, a prosecution could use evidence of prior bad acts to rebut/impeach the evidence of a defendant's good character. This is what most posters here would be familiar with as a defendant "opening the door."

I am posting this information not only for your benefit, but for others, so they understand why prior convictions and the like are not likely to be used at trial.

Is it unlikely / inadmissible for defense to repeat in court what they stated right after his arrest?

• Rick is a 50-year-old man who has never been arrested nor accused of any crime in his entire life. He is innocent and completely confused as to why he has been charged with these crimes.

'Rick is innocent': Allen's attorneys release statement questioning evidence

The attorneys representing Richard Allen have released a statement in reaction to the release of the probable cause affidavit earlier this week.

www.wrtv.com

 

[Niner]

@Niner are you talking about the jury field trip? I don't believe Judge Gull has ruled on the jury viewing crime scene. The prosecution has objected but I thought she would rule on that after the jury is seated. Unless I missed a filing or docket entry I think that is still up in the air.

Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

A judge has ruled that the jury in the Delphi Murders trial will not visit the crime scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were killed in 2017.

www.starcitytv.com

Special Judge Fran Gull took the defense motion under advisement pending the state’s response and a hearing to be conducted once jury selection wraps up.
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/delp...efense-request-to-take-jurors-to-crime-scene/

In a recent decision for the upcoming Delphi Murders trial, the judge has denied a request from the defense to allow the jury to visit the scene where Abby Williams and Libby German were murdered in 2017.
Judge denies jury visit to crime scene in Delphi Murders trial

both articles were published October 1.

I agree, I think Star City is wrong.

Thank you all for the replies! I shall wait & see what @steeltowngirl from the newspaper. And the article @iamshadow21 posted is the one I saw & couldn't access. That is why I asked!

 

[tlcya]

as far as the DV call from 2015, as far as we know that contact with LE at his home did not result in any charges whatsoever so IMO the defense attorney did not lie in his statement after the arrest.

The only reason I could see that prior incident coming in at trial is if the defense themselves were to introduce it and why would they? It is irrelevant to this case. JMO. I don't see it coming up at trial.

 

[AugustWest]

Is it unlikely / inadmissible for defense to repeat in court what they stated right after his arrest?

• Rick is a 50-year-old man who has never been arrested nor accused of any crime in his entire life. He is innocent and completely confused as to why he has been charged with these crimes.

'Rick is innocent': Allen's attorneys release statement questioning evidence

The attorneys representing Richard Allen have released a statement in reaction to the release of the probable cause affidavit earlier this week.

www.wrtv.com

Yes, I think it is unlikely they will repeat that in court. That would arguably open the door.

Even if they did open the door, that still does not negate the need for evidence to be relevant. An event happening in 2015 (or anytime prior) doesn't have any relevance to whether or not RA killed A & L.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes, I think it is unlikely they will repeat that in court. That would arguably open the door.

Even if they did open the door, that still does not negate the need for evidence to be relevant. An event happening in 2015 (or anytime prior) doesn't have any relevance to whether or not RA killed A & L.

Just to be clear, you are only referring to legal relevance in court, correct?