Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[jjenny]

You bring up something else.

If they want to film a close up of someone loading a revolver would they use dummy rounds with holes in the side of the case which could be seen by viewers or the kind with BB's in them that armorer Clay Van Sickle demonstrated in the link above?

Ones they had on Rust had a hole on the side per AD. There might have not been a scene of someone loading a gun.

 

[RANCH]

Ones they had on Rust had a hole on the side per AD. There might have not been a scene of someone loading a gun.

That's true. Do you consider AD Halls as being competent in checking the safety of the firearms on this set. I sure don't. JMO.

 

[jjenny]

That's true. Do you consider AD Halls as being competent in checking the safety of the firearms on this set. I sure don't. JMO.

He admitted he didn't thoroughly checked the firearm he gave to Baldwin. He claims he saw three rounds when armorer showed him the gun, he doesn't remember if she span the gun to see the rest. And he doesn't even say he verified the rounds he saw were dummies. So, why would I consider him competent in checking firearm safety? He declared the gun "cold" even though he didn't actually verified that it was cold.

 

[jjenny]

That's true. Do you consider AD Halls as being competent in checking the safety of the firearms on this set. I sure don't. JMO.

He admitted he didn't thoroughly checked the firearm he gave to Baldwin. He claims he saw three rounds when armorer showed him the gun, he doesn't remember if she span the gun to see the rest. And he doesn't even say he verified the rounds he saw were dummies. So, why would I consider him competent in checking firearm safety?

 

[RANCH]

I'm trying to figure out why a film production would want to use dummy rounds with a simulated live primer in it. If they want a rear shot that shows primers they could simply film blanks that have live primers in them. There's no legitimate reason that I can think of to make dummy rounds that are harder to distinguish from live ammunition. JMO

 

[Satchie]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. That is the essence of HGR's job, right there. To watch those guns and ammo like they were the nuclear football, and when she isn't watching them, they're locked in the safe. Then finally to engage in the vital ritual of checking that there are no live rounds before handing off the gun.

Every time. Full stop.

She can say anything she wants about no live rounds ever being on the set. It is a fact that there was a live round, not an opinion, because that's why Halyna died and why the same bullet was removed from Souza's shoulder after tearing through Halyna.

I've mentioned before that I watched Breaking Bad which was also filmed in New Mexico. That show was guns all day long. I have no idea who was in charge and what kind of guns were used, but whomever was the armorer was on point because there was no catastrophe. Same state, same laws governing TV and theatrical productions. But clearly a crew who paid attention to their jobs.

IMO

I guess the question to ask Armorers - on Breaking Bad or anywhere - would be: how often have you found live bullets in a prop gun when you were checking it, just before you passed it to an actor.

No one has ever mentioned this, that as Armorers they have frequently found live
bullets in guns that they loaded earlier in the day but that left their sight momentarily.

That would be something I think they would mention, that there were always people sneaking real bullets into prop guns, so you have to be exceptionally vigilant.

 

[Only4Justice]

In a statement issued through her attorney, Jason Bowles, Ms Gutierrez-Reed said she was "devastated and completely beside herself over the events that transpired".

(...)

The statement continued: "Safety is Hannah's number one priority on set. Ultimately this set would never have been compromised if live ammo were not introduced. Hannah has no idea where the live rounds came from.

"Hannah and the prop master gained control over the guns and she never witnessed anyone shoot live rounds with these guns and nor would she permit that.

"They were locked up every night and at lunch and there's no way a single one of them was unaccounted for or being shot by crew members.

"Hannah still, to this day, has never had an accidental discharge."

More at link

Alec Baldwin shooting: Rust movie set armourer says her role in death of cinematographer 'falsely portrayed'

I’m sorry but I absolutely do not believe her. JMO and all that. I’m not laying all the blame at her feet, as I feel there is much blame to go around here.

 

[RANCH]

He admitted he didn't thoroughly checked the firearm he gave to Baldwin. He claims he saw three rounds when armorer showed him the gun, he doesn't remember if she span the gun to see the rest. And he doesn't even say he verified the rounds he saw were dummies. So, why would I consider him competent in checking firearm safety?

I'm glad to hear that. I was thinking you felt that the hole in the side of the case was the only way to identify a dummy round because AD Halls said that.

 

[RANCH]

I guess the question to ask Armorers - on Breaking Bad or anywhere - would be: how often have you found live bullets in a prop gun when you were checking it, just before you passed it to an actor.

No one has ever mentioned this, that as Armorers they have frequently found live
bullets in guns that they loaded earlier in the day but that left their sight momentarily.

That would be something I think they would mention, that there were always people sneaking real bullets into prop guns, so you have to be exceptionally vigilant.

I would have to say that the reason we haven't heard armorers talking about frequently finding live ammo on sets is that it's a very rare occurrence.

I still would not be surprise if someone brought live ammunition on sets before but adherence to safety protocols prevented a live fire event like this one. JMO.

 

[Only4Justice]

Problem is, at this point, no one is fessing up to putting live bullets in that gun - The Armorer is saying she has no idea how live ammo got in the gun- there is the chance that we will never know who put live ammo in the gun-

I believe they all know who it is. All it will take is one person to turn in the rest. All IMO

 

[RANCH]

I’m sorry but I absolutely do not believe her. JMO and all that. I’m not laying all the blame at her feet, as I feel there is much blame to go around here.

I'm sure the number of people with the opportunity to load live rounds in the gun is very limited. LE will focus on them and find the truth. JMO.

 

[Satchie]

I would have to say that the reason we haven't heard armorers talking about frequently finding live ammo on sets is that it's a very rare occurrence.

I still would not be surprise if someone brought live ammunition on sets before but adhered to safety protocols prevented a live fire event like this one. JMO.

I would agree. Therefore, while safety checks are undoubtedly necessary, it's entirely possible that this kind of thing hasn't happened in the past because no one actually put a live bullet in a prop gun. And therefore the lack of accidents may not be entirely due to complacency in this situation. There may be many, many other film shootings - Breaking Bad was mentioned - where there was also occasional complacency, lapses in attention and care, but since there were no live bullets in the prop guns, it didn't matter.

 

[branmuffin]

Replying to Datchery. I hope I have quoted the question <modsnip>

The weapon is a historic design -- not F Lee Pieta as stated, but F.LLI Pietta (not that it matters because the answer to your question is the same).

This is a single-action revolver. That means that it is not fired simply by pulling (squeezing) the triggere! The revolver must first be "cocked" by drawing the hammer back (usually with the thumb of the operating hand) to what is called a "full *advertiser censored*" position. The reason that is important is that the hammer can be drawn back to a half-*advertiser censored* position. It is in the half-*advertiser censored* condition that the weapon is loaded or unloaded or inspected. See note about "going off half-cocked" below.

The round thing (which has been wrongly referred to here as a "drum") is called the "cylinder" and it is in the cylinder that the rounds/bullets are loaded. Unlike modern double-action revolvers, the cylinder does NOT swing out for loading/unloading/inspection. Rather, you can see on the side of the weapon (usually on the right side) just to the rear of the cylinder a "loading gate" which swings away from the frame and allows access to the rear of the cylinder --- ONE CHAMBER AT A TIME!! -- THIS IS IMPORTANT!)

In order to open the loading gate, the hammer must be in the half-*advertiser censored* position. When the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*, the trigger is blocked and the weapon cannot be discharged. While at half-*advertiser censored* with the loading gate open, the cylinder may be rotated so that each chamber may be inspected, unloaded or loaded. On the same side as the loading gate, there is a rod attached to the frame just forward of the cylinder and the rod is held in position by a spring. The operator may slide the rod to the rear of the frame whereupon it will enter the front end of the cylinder and push through the cylinder thus removing any casing or bullet that is in that perticular chamber of the cylinder. The rod is then released so that the cylinder may be rotated to the next position and similarly cleared/unloaded.

Typically, these revolvers have six chambers (hence the term "six-shooter") but may have only five or, in the case of .22 cal. revolvers, may have as many as nine chambers. Revolvers chambered for .45 Long Colt will not have more than six chambers because the rounds/bullets are too large (almost half an inch in diameter).

Okay; so How do you check the weapon?

I am not familiar enough with the F.LLI Pietta design to know for certain, but I base my answer on the Ruger Single-six which you can examine safely at any gun store where the clerk will have an unloaded weapon in his showcase and will be happy to demonstrate all the above and below. Make him think you are interested in buying because he is not going to respond well to "Oh, I was thinking about the homicide on the movie set . . . . Do not ask to see a F.LLI Pietta because he is not going to have one and he will immediately know why you are there! Ask to see a Ruger Single-six in any caliber like .357 or .44. Don't ask for .45 Long Colt because he may not stock that one.

The most reasonable way to check a single-action revolver for safe condition is to unload it by going to half-*advertiser censored*, opening the loading gate, and using the clearing rod to unload each chamber. Then you can observe the rear of the cylinder as you rotate it (it will turn freely and may or may not have little "click" detents during rotation) and assure that all the chambers are empty. THEN you would load whatever you wish to put into each of the chambers -- or only one or two of them. When that is conccluded, you would close the loading gate and release the hammer -- or just leave it at half-*advertiser censored*.

To fire the weapon, draw the hammer back to the full-cocked position, aim and squeeze the trigger. After the weapon has discharged (or not if you had it set to an empty chamber), nothing will happen until you draw the hammer back to the full cocked position which will cause the cylinder to rotate one increment thus placing the next chamber in position.

To "Safe the weapon" point the barrel to a safe place (not the sky!) away from people and things, hold the hammer securely and squeeze the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer. Best place to leave the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*.

GOING OFF HALF-COCKED

While you are looking at that Ruger Single-Six, ask the clerk about the "Transfer Bar." (The F.LLI Pietta almost surely did not have a transfer bar!)

A single-action revolver which is loaded and fully cocked might be dropped and the impact jolt could release the "sear" which holds the hammer in position. That would allow the hammer to swing forward and strike the bullet and discharge the weapon which could be aimed anywhere at that time. This is often seen in old Western movies and usually the bullet will hit a chandelier and the fixture will fall onto a table or onto a bad guy, etc. If you're old enough, you've seen such a movie. Always in black and white.

Such weapons COULD have the same thing happen if only half-cocked when dropped. That is always what we call "bad ****."

The weapon is said to have "gone off half-cocked."

TRANSFER BAR (circa 1972?)

Rules made in the early seventies required that a half-cocked or fully cocked revolver could not discharge unless the operator was squeezing the trigger while the hammer fell onto the ammunition/bullet.

As the trigger is squeezed, a bar moves up into a position between the hammer and the firing pin. The hammer strikes the transfer bar which, in turn, strikes the firing pin. The hammer has a lug above the place where the transfer bar will be such that IF the transfer bar is not in position, the hammer will strike the frame of the revolver above (usually) the firing pin and the firing pin will not move --- thus the weapon will not discharge.

The Ruger Single-six you are looking at will have a transfer bar and you will be able to observe what happens if you .... Well, just get the clerk to show you. It would be very difficult for me to explain without a video or series of pictures.

ANYWAY -- IN CONCLUSION

A.B. <modsnip> I would not expect him to know how to properly inspect the single-action revolver. That is why the movie company has an armorer and why it is reasonable to say that A.B. should have been able to rely on the "unloaded" weapon assurance when the weapon was handed to him. Whether the A.D. should have been allowed to handle the weapon between the armorer's preparation is a question for someone else.

THE QUICK CHECK we are taught to use with double-action revolvers does NOT APPLY to single-action revolvers. I don't happen to like A.B., but he is being criticized for not checking the weapon and l submit that he could NOT have been expected to know how to do that. I would have been expected to know how to do it because I am a self-confessed "gun nut."

I hope that helps somebody.
C

I stated something similar in post #711 of this thread. The info is from a YT video. The gun expert in the video stated that this Pietta model should not have all chambers filled since the firing pin would be resting on a round causing it to misfire if bumped or jostled. He skipped the second chamber so that when the hammer was back in place the firing pin was against an empty chamber. Five rounds vs six to avoid 'shooting yourself in the foot'.

 

[book-thinker]

I’m sorry but I absolutely do not believe her. JMO and all that. I’m not laying all the blame at her feet, as I feel there is much blame to go around here.

She provided a unconvincing explanation of what she was doing leading up to what happened. She was as amorist period! Instead she’s casting blame on everyone else. I don’t feel she’s taken responsibility for her part in the death of this beautiful young lady.

 

[cocomod]

The armorers job is the guns! She is saying she didn’t know there were love rounds on set. How?!!! She should know what is on set - that is her freaking job!

Her father trained her - she has been around movies her whole life. She may understand the business, but perhaps she doesn’t understand the safety side of it.

She also isn’t taking responsibility. She should know what is on set - period! She can’t say she doesn’t know what is in her wheelhouse.

She cannot say she was safe and responsible if she is honestly saying she didn’t see live rounds on set.

Plus, she personally said she checked the guns and then put them in the safe before lunch. Her JOB is to know the difference between a live round, a dummy, and a blank.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I don't think DH has spoken publicly at all. We just found out what he had told LE about not fully checking the gun from the affidavit. Apparently he is now only communicating with police through his lawyer. As far as I understand it.

Thank you, Mo.

 

[SuziQ]

An actor from the production has stated that the camera crew were protected behind screens. I am not clear on why Halyna and the director weren't behind them at the time of the shooting unless they weren't required to be so during a rehearsal, nothing is really clear at all at this point apart from the fact that something went terribly,tragically wrong.

Imo, they were not behind protective glass because it was a rehearsal with what was supposed to be a cold gun.

 

[oc1234]

Replying to Datchery. I hope I have quoted the question <modsnip>

The weapon is a historic design -- not F Lee Pieta as stated, but F.LLI Pietta (not that it matters because the answer to your question is the same).

This is a single-action revolver. That means that it is not fired simply by pulling (squeezing) the triggere! The revolver must first be "cocked" by drawing the hammer back (usually with the thumb of the operating hand) to what is called a "full *advertiser censored*" position. The reason that is important is that the hammer can be drawn back to a half-*advertiser censored* position. It is in the half-*advertiser censored* condition that the weapon is loaded or unloaded or inspected. See note about "going off half-cocked" below.

The round thing (which has been wrongly referred to here as a "drum") is called the "cylinder" and it is in the cylinder that the rounds/bullets are loaded. Unlike modern double-action revolvers, the cylinder does NOT swing out for loading/unloading/inspection. Rather, you can see on the side of the weapon (usually on the right side) just to the rear of the cylinder a "loading gate" which swings away from the frame and allows access to the rear of the cylinder --- ONE CHAMBER AT A TIME!! -- THIS IS IMPORTANT!)

In order to open the loading gate, the hammer must be in the half-*advertiser censored* position. When the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*, the trigger is blocked and the weapon cannot be discharged. While at half-*advertiser censored* with the loading gate open, the cylinder may be rotated so that each chamber may be inspected, unloaded or loaded. On the same side as the loading gate, there is a rod attached to the frame just forward of the cylinder and the rod is held in position by a spring. The operator may slide the rod to the rear of the frame whereupon it will enter the front end of the cylinder and push through the cylinder thus removing any casing or bullet that is in that perticular chamber of the cylinder. The rod is then released so that the cylinder may be rotated to the next position and similarly cleared/unloaded.

Typically, these revolvers have six chambers (hence the term "six-shooter") but may have only five or, in the case of .22 cal. revolvers, may have as many as nine chambers. Revolvers chambered for .45 Long Colt will not have more than six chambers because the rounds/bullets are too large (almost half an inch in diameter).

Okay; so How do you check the weapon?

I am not familiar enough with the F.LLI Pietta design to know for certain, but I base my answer on the Ruger Single-six which you can examine safely at any gun store where the clerk will have an unloaded weapon in his showcase and will be happy to demonstrate all the above and below. Make him think you are interested in buying because he is not going to respond well to "Oh, I was thinking about the homicide on the movie set . . . . Do not ask to see a F.LLI Pietta because he is not going to have one and he will immediately know why you are there! Ask to see a Ruger Single-six in any caliber like .357 or .44. Don't ask for .45 Long Colt because he may not stock that one.

The most reasonable way to check a single-action revolver for safe condition is to unload it by going to half-*advertiser censored*, opening the loading gate, and using the clearing rod to unload each chamber. Then you can observe the rear of the cylinder as you rotate it (it will turn freely and may or may not have little "click" detents during rotation) and assure that all the chambers are empty. THEN you would load whatever you wish to put into each of the chambers -- or only one or two of them. When that is conccluded, you would close the loading gate and release the hammer -- or just leave it at half-*advertiser censored*.

To fire the weapon, draw the hammer back to the full-cocked position, aim and squeeze the trigger. After the weapon has discharged (or not if you had it set to an empty chamber), nothing will happen until you draw the hammer back to the full cocked position which will cause the cylinder to rotate one increment thus placing the next chamber in position.

To "Safe the weapon" point the barrel to a safe place (not the sky!) away from people and things, hold the hammer securely and squeeze the trigger and SLOWLY lower the hammer. Best place to leave the hammer is at half-*advertiser censored*.

GOING OFF HALF-COCKED

While you are looking at that Ruger Single-Six, ask the clerk about the "Transfer Bar." (The F.LLI Pietta almost surely did not have a transfer bar!)

A single-action revolver which is loaded and fully cocked might be dropped and the impact jolt could release the "sear" which holds the hammer in position. That would allow the hammer to swing forward and strike the bullet and discharge the weapon which could be aimed anywhere at that time. This is often seen in old Western movies and usually the bullet will hit a chandelier and the fixture will fall onto a table or onto a bad guy, etc. If you're old enough, you've seen such a movie. Always in black and white.

Such weapons COULD have the same thing happen if only half-cocked when dropped. That is always what we call "bad ****."

The weapon is said to have "gone off half-cocked."

TRANSFER BAR (circa 1972?)

Rules made in the early seventies required that a half-cocked or fully cocked revolver could not discharge unless the operator was squeezing the trigger while the hammer fell onto the ammunition/bullet.

As the trigger is squeezed, a bar moves up into a position between the hammer and the firing pin. The hammer strikes the transfer bar which, in turn, strikes the firing pin. The hammer has a lug above the place where the transfer bar will be such that IF the transfer bar is not in position, the hammer will strike the frame of the revolver above (usually) the firing pin and the firing pin will not move --- thus the weapon will not discharge.

The Ruger Single-six you are looking at will have a transfer bar and you will be able to observe what happens if you .... Well, just get the clerk to show you. It would be very difficult for me to explain without a video or series of pictures.

ANYWAY -- IN CONCLUSION

A.B. <modsnip> I would not expect him to know how to properly inspect the single-action revolver. That is why the movie company has an armorer and why it is reasonable to say that A.B. should have been able to rely on the "unloaded" weapon assurance when the weapon was handed to him. Whether the A.D. should have been allowed to handle the weapon between the armorer's preparation is a question for someone else.

THE QUICK CHECK we are taught to use with double-action revolvers does NOT APPLY to single-action revolvers. I don't happen to like A.B., but he is being criticized for not checking the weapon and l submit that he could NOT have been expected to know how to do that. I would have been expected to know how to do it because I am a self-confessed "gun nut."

I hope that helps somebody.
C

Yes, thank you for this very helpful and informative post!

 

[SuziQ]

RSBM.

Do we know what HG's armoury experience was before this year?

I would think that some kind of certification in at least basic gun safety would be required? I'm not sure that just anyone can adequately perform this role. I would imagine that attributes such as attention to detail, adherence to safely protocols, stability and integrity would be important.

Perhaps internships under experts like Larry Zanoff, could give new armourers experience. I noticed that he is POST certified and has military experience.

Larry Zanoff - Biography - IMDb

From the podcast she said she started learning about guns when she was 16 and only started training as an armorer (I cannot recall the time frame). Iirc it wasn't all that long ago.

Moo. Because I can't look for a link right now. Basically she was still green.

 

[Arkay]

The armorers job is the guns! She is saying she didn’t know there were love rounds on set. How?!!! She should know what is on set - that is her freaking job!

Her father trained her - she has been around movies her whole life. She may understand the business, but perhaps she doesn’t understand the safety side of it.

She also isn’t taking responsibility. She should know what is on set - period! She can’t say she doesn’t know what is in her wheelhouse.

She cannot say she was safe and responsible if she is honestly saying she didn’t see live rounds on set.

Plus, she personally said she checked the guns and then put them in the safe before lunch. Her JOB is to know the difference between a live round, a dummy, and a blank.

Agree 1000%.

HGR saying she didn't know there were live rounds on the set is equivalent IMO to a firefighter saying "oh, I didn't know I was supposed to put out that fire." Or an airplane pilot saying, "oh, I didn't know I was supposed to fly the plane." I mean, c'mon really now...the job of armorer exists for this very reason. To go through every necessary step, every time, to ensure that no weapon fires real bullets at a real person.

If we all think of our jobs and what is the absolutely most fundamental part of our job, and imagine ourselves not doing it, that's what this shakes out to be. IMO.