Greece American tourist a retired cop, 59, not returned from a solo hike, Amorgos Island, 11 June 24

[Herat]

I think they can't be disclosed to third parties, like the media, not the Greek police. The US rescue team most likely didn't come with an official request, they were just volunteers so they they can't be privy to all the inner workings of the investigation.

Yes, very important points that the US group is not an official governmental delengation. Much like the family of the missing French women are not official, and are also displeased that the French government cannot just send over some of their SAR people to a foreign country and usurp the responsibilities and domain of the host government.

Same thing is being said about the 19 year old UK kid missing on Tenerife. The UK is just not going to send a delegation to look for them in Spanish territory.

Just like Greece would not send a delegation of searchers to the US to look for a missing Greek citizen, without some special request from US LEO.

 

[Cedars]

I think they can't be disclosed to third parties, like the media, not the Greek police. The US rescue team most likely didn't come with an official request, they were just volunteers so they they can't be privy to all the inner workings of the investigation.

I wonder whether perhaps some conflict might have arisen because family/friends believed it was still a rescue operation days later, whereas authorities may have approached it as recovery (as well as a potential for crime/self disappearance that can't be ruled out by them).

JMO

 

[indicolite22]

I think they can't be disclosed to third parties, like the media, not the Greek police. The US rescue team most likely didn't come with an official request, they were just volunteers so they they can't be privy to all the inner workings of the investigation.

A few days ago his brother stated in a media interview (linked on this forum) that he filed a request for more detailed phone information and signed a statement that foul play was suspected, which was supposedly necessary. It looks like his request was denied anyway.

 

[Herat]

A few days ago his brother stated in a media interview (linked on this forum) that he filed a request for more detailed phone information and signed a statement that foul play was suspected, which was supposedly necessary. It looks like his request was denied anyway.

Perhaps a more respectful and diplomatic approach to the Greek LEO by an official from Amargos might be better received.

I do sense the real anger and tensions in the voices of the brother and the friend and some mediation is needed. The Greek LEO likely think this is a lost cause and are not willing to expend additional resources for deceased older foreigners, thinking this is going to become a trend. They've already been heavily criticized for not finding Dr. Mosely, there are other at-risk foreigners missing and its hardly even summer. This kind of scenario is likely to repeat itself 10X this year, alone.

Someone who can make it in the Greek LEO best interest to use cell phone data to quickly find lost foreigners and reduce expenses and stress to the LEO in the Greek isles may be needed..

 

[Cedars]

According to the friend, only the general area of last pings was disclosed, which was basically the entire island of Amorgos. Apparently privacy laws prohibit providing more precise location (or perhaps providing raw data).

IMO, there's also a limit in how precisely celltower technicians are able to pinpoint a 'historical' signal from a phone (ie not in real time, but by going back into stored data.)

IMO, if the person made a call/text, then the more precise data about their location can be determined for that moment, because the phone connected with the tower. This is especially true if they called 911 or equivalent - they are set up to record the exact location.

But if a phone is in the range of that tower, but not being actively used, it's not sending constant pings to the tower. So no movement of the phone is detected. Even a 'just checking-in ping', might not have the precise location stored in their databanks of all the phones connecting to that tower.

IMO, people believe there's infinite capacity to pinpoint location - but IMO, that's from cases where either:
- the phone is still on, the police ask the celltower to ping the phone right now and get a precise gps location;
- the phone was moving in an urban area with multiple towers, so the phone was pinging as it switched between towers, and police experts know how to map and triangulate precisely where a phone would be, when it switched to a closer tower,
- or, police have the actual phone, which shows actual gps movement as stored in the phone (not stored in the celltower databanks).

Then there are 'find my phone' apps, that don't connect to towers but to other nearby devices (if there are any). Even that might not reveal anything in this case, if there weren't any people nearby actively using a device.

JMO

 

[Herat]

IMO, there's also a limit in how precisely celltower technicians are able to pinpoint a 'historical' signal from a phone (ie not in real time, but by going back into stored data.)

IMO, if the person made a call/text, then the more precise data about their location can be determined for that moment, because the phone connected with the tower. This is especially true if they called 911 or equivalent - they are set up to record the exact location.

But if a phone is in the range of that tower, but not being actively used, it's not sending constant pings to the tower. So no movement of the phone is detected. Even a 'just checking-in ping', might not have the precise location stored in their databanks of all the phones connecting to that tower.

IMO, people believe there's infinite capacity to pinpoint location - but IMO, that's from cases where either:
- the phone is still on, the police ask the celltower to ping the phone right now and get a precise gps location;
- the phone was moving in an urban area with multiple towers, so the phone was pinging as it switched between towers, and police experts know how to map and triangulate precisely where a phone would be, when it switched to a closer tower,
- or, police have the actual phone, which shows actual gps movement as stored in the phone (not stored in the celltower databanks).

Then there are 'find my phone' apps, that don't connect to towers but to other nearby devices (if there are any). Even that might not reveal anything in this case, if there weren't any people nearby actively using a device.

JMO

How well do you think What3 Words would work on a small islands like Amargos or Sikinos?

 

[Cedars]

Perhaps a more respectful and diplomatic approach to the Greek LEO by an official from Amargos might be better received.

I do sense the real anger and tensions in the voices of the brother and the friend and some mediation is needed. The Greek LEO likely think this is a lost cause and are not willing to expend additional resources for deceased older foreigners, thinking this is going to become a trend. They've already been heavily criticized for not finding Dr. Mosely, there are other at-risk foreigners missing and its hardly even summer. This kind of scenario is likely to repeat itself 10X this year, alone.

Someone who can make it in the Greek LEO best interest to use cell phone data to quickly find lost foreigners and reduce expenses and stress to the LEO in the Greek isles may be needed..

Coincidentally, I followed a case last summer of a foreign visitor to California who disappeared. There was very strong criticism and outrage against police inaction coming from family. It also turned out to be a heat stroke situation, that wasn't resolved for months, and then only because a vehicle was eventually found. Apparently there was a cell phone ping, but it didn't help the Sheriff pinpoint the location.

I think the stress and anger is from coming to terms with the reality of what happened, and police just can't make it all okay.

JMO

 

[Cedars]

How well do you think What3 Words would work on a small islands like Amargos or Sikinos?

I don't know much, but it seems just a different format for standard GPS coordinates (which are extremely long strings of numbers) . Like shorthand, if you put the gps coordinates into the 3 words app, you can memorize them and then more easily send them via text nessage or phone call.

You still have to know what the gps coordinates are, though.

For example, there are 3 ways of telling people where your home is: your street address, your gps coordinates, your what3words. People can use any of those ways to find you there - if you are home.

But if you're not home, they won't know where to find you.

JMO

 

[Herat]

I don't know much, but it seems just a different format for standard GPS coordinates (which are extremely long strings of numbers) . Like shorthand, if you put the gps coordinates into the 3 words app, you can memorize them and then more easily send them via text nessage or phone call.

You still have to know what the gps coordinates are, though.

For example, there are 3 ways of telling people where your home is: your street address, your gps coordinates, your what3words. People can use any of those ways to find you there - if you are home.

But if you're not home, they won't know where to find you.

JMO

It would seem that if missing French woman on Sikinos Francoise could dial the phone # of her lodging, she would be able to say or send the written 3 word code. Better if the app just directly sent the code without it having to be spoken.

One of the sad parts is that the guest lodging owner could speak to her and hear her voice but no useful information was communicated. She was able to send a selfie, would sending the 3 word code ( in any of 60 languages) be that more difficult?

Just tried it on my own phone and it was easier than sending a picture or a selfie. Went directly to the person I texted it too.
1. Click onto app icon
2. See the map
3. Hit Share
4. Chose contact from your text list or type in one

 

[Cedars]

It would seem that if missing French woman on Sikinos Francoise could dial the phone # of her lodging, she would be able to say or send the written 3 word code. Better if the app just directly sent the code without it having to be spoken.

One of the sad parts is that the guest lodging owner could speak to her and hear her voice but no useful information was communicated. She was able to send a selfie, would sending the 3 word code ( in any of 60 languages) be that more difficult.

Just tried it on my own phone and it was easier than sending a picture or a selfie. Went directly to the person I texted it too.
1. Click onto app icon
2. See the map
3. Hit Share
4. Chose contact from your text list or type in one

Yes, that seems very convenient for some situations. But in an emergency, 911 or the equivalent in Greece would be a much better idea...they will not miss the call, they have multilanguage speakers, they will log your gps coordinates without you having to use an app...usually you don't have to have much juice left on your phone...

JMO

 

[Herat]

Yes, that seems very convenient for some situations. But in an emergency, 911 or the equivalent in Greece would be a much better idea...they will not miss the call, they have multilanguage speakers, they will log your gps coordinates without you having to use an app...usually you don't have to have much juice left on your phone...

JMO

FB evidently did not send an emergency notification to either Greek or French authorities. If her carrier was French, it should have reverted to the French equivalent of 911 (US).

I doubt she would have known what the Greek equivalent of 911 was ( It's 112 for reference).

Certainly not suggesting to ignore the local emergency calls, just think What3words adds another simple layer of redundancy and safety.

I really appreciate your explanations of all this. We do so rely on phone data now for everything and those of us who live in countries with abundant cell towers and such make assumptions that are not valid in different locations and environments.

Just goes to show that even having 2 cell phones is not an absolute guarantee of finding assistance.

I suppose it means you have to have one of the expensive satellite phones and subscriptions. Something that would not suit casual travelers.

 

[otto]

Regarding the map from the News report, the 3 points seem to be Lagada, Chora, and slightly NW of Chora.

I've been thinking for a few days now that it is possible that Albert stopped to buy water and coke 2 hours into the hike because he was already beginning to feel the effects of sun stroke. I think it's quite possible that he was confused an hour or so later, and that he may have taken a wrong turn. Dr. Mosley made a mistake regarding the trail. It's not out of the question that Albert made a similar mistake.

Although we have read that he hiked the area often, I'm curious whether he was familiar with all the trails in the area - is it possible that he took a wrong turn, thinking it was a short cut to Katapola, and ended up lost in the area NW of Chora (see second map).

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

I don't know much, but it seems just a different format for standard GPS coordinates (which are extremely long strings of numbers) . Like shorthand, if you put the gps coordinates into the 3 words app, you can memorize them and then more easily send them via text nessage or phone call.

You still have to know what the gps coordinates are, though.

For example, there are 3 ways of telling people where your home is: your street address, your gps coordinates, your what3words. People can use any of those ways to find you there - if you are home.

But if you're not home, they won't know where to find you.

JMO

Any idea how well an app like Glympse or Find Friends would work in a place like that? I use both on occasion in the US for tracking my contacts as they travel via car, and can see my friends or relatives as they drive in real time, on a map. It’s pretty darn accurate unless, of course, they’re in an area of no cell access. Glympse even displays their speed so I can see if they’re possibly delayed due to traffic. And if they park and go into a large store like a Walmart, I can see that they’re in the building. Seems all hikers should have a buddy system with a realtime tracking app enabled. Or better yet, a satellite based Garmin device. I know they’re not cheap but I don’t think you need to call out coordinates when calling for help and using one. And the average casual tourist isn’t going to have one.

 

[Herat]

Regarding the map from the News report, the 3 points seem to be Lagada, Chora, and slightly NW of Chora.

I've been thinking for a few days now that it is possible that Albert stopped to buy water and coke 2 hours into the hike because he was already beginning to feel the effects of sun stroke. I think it's quite possible that he was confused an hour or so later, and that he may have taken a wrong turn. Dr. Mosley made a mistake regarding the trail. It's not out of the question that Albert made a similar mistake.

Although we have read that he hiked the area often, I'm curious whether he was familiar with all the trails in the area - is it possible that he took a wrong turn, thinking it was a short cut to Katapola, and ended up lost in the area NW of Chora (see second map).

View attachment 512178

View attachment 512181

Yes, that area generally in the region of the last red dot has few marked trails, some of which I can see better on Google shots of Amargos. It also has some unexpectedly steep ravines. The stone walls in those areas look old and not well-maintained and in a hyperthermic conditions where you are confused, with a bad headache or squinting, it would be easy to lose the original trail and just keep stumbling into more remote desolate places without any hope of shade or water.

So very frustrating for the desperate family and SAR people. I truly hope he is found soon.

 

[otto]

Yes, that area generally in the region of the last red dot has few marked trails, some of which I can see better on Google shots of Amargos. It also has some unexpectedly steep ravines. The stone walls in those areas look old and not well-maintained and in a hyperthermic conditions where you are confused, with a bad headache or squinting, it would be easy to lose the original trail and just keep stumbling into more remote desolate places without any hope of shade or water.

So very frustrating for the desperate family and SAR people. I truly hope he is found soon.

I just had a look - yes, a lot of places for something to go wrong off the main trail

google earth

 

[Herat]

There is a very steep ravine on that NW side that has a name that translates to Stream Cold Water.

You can see it on the Google map better, and there is a hike in that area with the name on Google, but not in All Trails

Ρέμα Κρύο Νερό​

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[otto]

There is a very steep ravine on that NW side that has a name that translates to Stream Cold Water.

You can see it on the Google map better, and there is a hike in that area with the name on Google, but not in All Trails

Ρέμα Κρύο Νερό​

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Here?






google earth: trails near the ravine

 

[Herat]

Here?

View attachment 512199

View attachment 512200

View attachment 512203
google earth: trails near the ravine

Yes, that's the one.

 

[otto]

Assuming he went off the main trail at point B, there looks to be some riskier portions of the trail - perhaps moreso during 96°F temperatures.

 

[Herat]

Assuming he went off the main trail at point B, there looks to be some riskier portions of the trail - perhaps moreso during 96°F temperatures.

The area of the switchbacks looks like an old road, with two parallel tracks and a center that shows it hasn't been driven for a while. That seems like it should be fairly easy to check on foot with dogs, as the tracks are fairly wide.

It does get to a really good trail next to a stone wall than runs fairly level in a NE to SW direction. Part of that has a bushy or perhaps low tree cover. That one small ravine just north of the Church of St. George looks like a place I would be heading for if I needed shade.