ATLANTIC CITY SK: possible link to LISK and GB4?

[Theforeigner]

How do you determine age and skin color in a phone call? Speech patterns, maybe the speed of talking. Both can be simulated easily.



That's part of the FBI rubber stamp profile. They even gave it out in Phoenix/AZ after surviving victims had already described the attacker as black. So well, the hit quota of the FBI was in the last decade not what I would consider as reliable, especially not if I see a perpetrator actively using their playbook to give wrong impressions.



So, a drunk standard white loner basement dwelling rubber stamp-SK full of rage is ... always calm, always in control, never yells and never laughs, never even raises the voice. Funny thing, have you ever noticed that, when you try to simulate other people's speech patterns, in your first few attempts, you speak automatically low? It's because the brain is focused on the patterns and other details of speech articulation fall a little flat. You can experiment with that, just try to simulate speech and voice patterns from somebody you see at TV. So, low voice as sign, he was overly concentrated on what he did, total control -> definitively not the signs of a drunk persons.



The point here is, those are the words. Now if someone speaks words, we actually don't know are those words true or wrong. All we hear are the words. And whether spoken in truth or spoken with the intent to lie, who speaks those words has reasons. And if someone, who pretends to be drunk and isn't (see above) to tells about his motives and presents me with an exact copy of the FBI playbook, I become a wee little suspicious. Just because never ever a serial killer who injected himself (and the fact, that LISK made phone calls in only one case out of four indicates, it is injection here) into an investigation told the truth. They don't tell you what they are, they tell you as what they want to be seen. So the question is, do I have to buy his story or do I ask why he tells that story? Mr. Cohen obviously bought the story.



Obviously, we agree on that. However, the pressing question is not that he wasn't drunk. The pressing question in my opinion is, why he felt the need to deliver this picture of a drunk guy.



Again, how to determine race in a phone call? Speech patterns?



30 phone calls is a lot, especially from someone, who didn't make phone calls in other cases, only in this one. Now, here is the behavioral trap:

- either Terri was a pimp, then attempt to torture him psychologically with phone calls probably never went over the level of "annoying". Pimps usually come with some degree of anti-social behavior themselves and a serial killer, quite anti-social as he is, would recognize that lately in the first few phone calls.

- or Melissa actually meant something to Terry. Well, then psychological torture is possible.

My problem is, how would LISK know which one of those two is it? To call a "boyfriend" anyone has to assume to be rather "pimp" makes no sense. And I can't even argue Melissa told him. Because every prostitute will tell you what a great guy her pimp is. Part of the scheme. So, LISK actually couldn't know, what was it. Okay, he could make a bet. And maybe he had seen Melissa and Johnny while he stalked Melissa and saw the way they treated each other, leading to the conclusion, he was actually more of a boyfriend than a mere pimp. But please, 30 phone calls? This was far beyond the scope of psychological torture and if it would have worked so great for a serial killer liking to torture people near to his victims on a psychological level, why did he stop in the next murders? It would have become part of his signature in all subsequent murders. But it didn't.
So, this wasn't about psychological torture. But there was a need to let it look as if. Now, looking a little around, who could LISK have in mind when he played sexual sadist 101, white drunk loner type on the phone? Oh yes, that is exactly the FBI rubber stamp again.

The real problem is, if he played that all, what would he be, if not the thing, he tried to sell with so much effort? Why so much effort at all?

But Peter the caller NEVER EVER acted as if he was a drunk when he called MB's sister and mother, so he did NOT pretend somthing he wasen't"

It is ONLY MB's boyfriend/pimp who claimed that an alledged caller was drunk most of the time when he called.
However we have NO info from LE that thise calls was the same caller or that those calls ever took place at all for that matter.

 

[Peter Brendt]

All the reasons you give correspond with the man who called MB's little sister and MB's mother (one call, belive to be the same man, where he claimed he was a NYPD officer) and it was never claimed that that caller was drunk.

It was MB's boyfriened/pimp Johnny Terry, who said that the caller he claimed called him at least 30 times, was durunk most of the time when he called.
However, we don´t know for sure if Terry is telling the truth.

The thing is that the right thing to do, when stating somthing that you belive but don't know 100% sure, is somthing like; "I belive he was not drunk at all" or "In my opinion he was not drunk at all "

I referred to your very own post, Foreigner. So I logically referred also to all the phoney you referred to.

And for reasons of calming down the Foreigner, please all listen: I hereby would like to exchange the terms:
"I don't think so", "I think", "I don't buy it"
into
"in my opinion, I don't think so", "in my opinion, I think" and "in my opinion, I don't buy it."
Furthermore, I would like to state for the protocol, that, whenever I use the pronoun "I", I refer to MY opinion, to MY exceptions and to MY deductions. And before the next one jumps me, I am aware, the capitalization of "my" is grammatically not correct and serves only to make the point clearer. And if this all sounds stupid, this all happens only because according to Foreigner, I have to make clear, that "in my opinion my opinion is only my opinion". :waitasec:

 

[Peter Brendt]

But Peter the caller NEVER EVER acted as if he was a drunk when he called MB's sister and mother, so he did NOT pretend somthing he wasen't"

It is ONLY MB's boyfriend/pimp who claimed that an alledged caller was drunk most of the time when he called.
However we have NO info from LE that thise calls was the same caller or that those calls ever took place at all for that matter.

You refer to 48 hours, to what Cohen said. You don't refer to the earlier articles in the media. The 48 hours was kind of a turn point when this other description came suddenly up. So ... now I (as in I, me, me alone, nobody else) can either sit here for a week and think about my original opinion (in my opinion, only mine and mine alone) that there was never a drunk white guy and that the turn, that came with Cohen's statements in 48 hours basically went all along with my opinion (mine and mine alone, well at least till someone joins the bandwagon now after Cohen spoke those statements). Or in my opinion in my opinion and in my opinion alone, it would be wiser, to go the next step and think about what that means. In my opinion, what would that tell us about the killer. Because, in my opinion and my opinion alone, it is a way, that leads to the killer and getting that guy caught would be, in my opinion and in my opinion obviously alone, worth a little thinking work.

Did I make the point that all of this is only in my opinion and only in mine, clear enough now?

 

[marie-chantal]

It was MB sister who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man". That was only her opinion and not proof that the caller was black and was trying to imitate one on purpose by disguising this voice.

Also you mention many times that the GB4, JT, SG (& also the AC4) do not have any visual resemblance. They were all on the small size, same race, age, petite body type - especially MBB and ALC / MW and MB. Looking at all of their pictures, I think they do resemble each other and had the same characterics and body type. IMO

In addition to MB's sister saying that the called sounded white, MB's boyfriend who also received mysterious phone calls, said that the caller sounded white.

 

[mysterymom7]

In addition to MB's sister saying that the called sounded white, MB's boyfriend who also received mysterious phone calls, said that the caller sounded white.

In your professional opinion, is this a probable opinion the receiver of the call could make based on the sound of the voice?

 

[marie-chantal]

I just went to the ID site, and I looked at each of the links. There are eight cases featured, and the second or third case is the Atlantic City case. I don't think that HA necessarily meant to comment on the Jennings case. I think he was skimming through each of the pages and then decided to comment.

I still find HA to be an interesting character, but honestly, I don't think he was talking about Jennings.

 

[Justiceforever]

I just went to the ID site, and I looked at each of the links. There are eight cases featured, and the second or third case is the Atlantic City case. I don't think that HA necessarily meant to comment on the Jennings case. I think he was skimming through each of the pages and then decided to comment.

I still find HA to be an interesting character, but honestly, I don't think he was talking about Jennings.

Thank you! That makes sense.

 

[marie-chantal]

In your professional opinion, is this a probable opinion the receiver of the call could make based on the sound of the voice?

Yes it is. In the United States, there is the AAVE (African-American Vernacular English). This is unique to the US; for example, in the UK, people of African descent do not sound differently from their caucasian counterparts. I took a semester of AAVE linguistics when I was getting my master's degree and it was absolutely fascinating. As a doctoral student, I've kept up on research and followed advocates who push for the recognition of the legitimacy of this form of American English. I'd be happy to point anyone toward articles, authors, etc.

AAVE manifests itself in its own speech patterns, grammar structures, and tones. Of course people from other backgrounds can speak in this manner, just as African-Americans can speak without this dialect. However, this dialect can be "heard" by the listener when conversing on the phone.

So it leaves us with two options: the caller was white, or the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a "white" accent. If the person sounded really nasal when they were speaking, it is highly possible that the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a white person. I'd love to hear a sample of the call. It would answer so many questions.

By the way-weight is something that can be heard (in some cases), when listening to a speech sample.

 

[marie-chantal]

Oh, I realized I forgot to mention something. When we try to mimic accents, we usually end up sounding either exaggeratedly flat or nasal. That's why I mentioned the bit about the caller sounding "nasal". My African-American friends who have tried to mimic "white" American English almost always sound either ridiculously flat, or very nasal. It's just like when a Caucasian tries to sound African-American-they'll take the tones to the front of their mouths or they'll drag the sounds out in a very unnatural way.

Just try it. If you're African-American, try to sound white. Notice how your mouth is positioned when you're making sounds. If you're white, try to sound African-American and notice where your sounds are coming from.

 

[mysterymom7]

Yes it is. In the United States, there is the AAVE (African-American Vernacular English). This is unique to the US; for example, in the UK, people of African descent do not sound differently from their caucasian counterparts. I took a semester of AAVE linguistics when I was getting my master's degree and it was absolutely fascinating. As a doctoral student, I've kept up on research and followed advocates who push for the recognition of the legitimacy of this form of American English. I'd be happy to point anyone toward articles, authors, etc.

AAVE manifests itself in its own speech patterns, grammar structures, and tones. Of course people from other backgrounds can speak in this manner, just as African-Americans can speak without this dialect. However, this dialect can be "heard" by the listener when conversing on the phone.

So it leaves us with two options: the caller was white, or the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a "white" accent. If the person sounded really nasal when they were speaking, it is highly possible that the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a white person. I'd love to hear a sample of the call. It would answer so many questions.

By the way-weight is something that can be heard (in some cases), when listening to a speech sample.

Fascinating! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question!

Another question, can you tell by writing style a persons decent? Say, for example, the author claims to be Hispanic, but the author's identity is unknown. Would you be able to distinguish a difference?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Oh, I realized I forgot to mention something. When we try to mimic accents, we usually end up sounding either exaggeratedly flat or nasal. That's why I mentioned the bit about the caller sounding "nasal". My African-American friends who have tried to mimic "white" American English almost always sound either ridiculously flat, or very nasal. It's just like when a Caucasian tries to sound African-American-they'll take the tones to the front of their mouths or they'll drag the sounds out in a very unnatural way.

Just try it. If you're African-American, try to sound white. Notice how your mouth is positioned when you're making sounds. If you're white, try to sound African-American and notice where your sounds are coming from.

Flat, calm, expressionless, low? Would that be the description?

 

[marie-chantal]

Flat, calm, expressionless, low? Would that be the description?

It means that it was either a white guy or it was someone trying to sound white. It means that the AAVE dialect was not heard during the call. I personally don't subscribe to the theory that the killer is African-American, but anything is possible, I guess.

When it comes to writing, it's harder to tell someone's descent if they're writing in standard English. If they're writing informally, then it is possible to detect age, race, ethnicity, gender, native language, social class, level of education and general area in which they live.

Got something you'd like me to analyze? I love, love, love looking at writing samples.

I don't do handwriting analysis though. I can only do linguistic analyses.

 

[marie-chantal]

Flat, calm, expressionless, low? Would that be the description?

I'm sorry Peter. I just realized that I didn't fully answer your questions. When a native speaker of AAVE tries to mimic a caucasian speaker of American English, they either sound exaggeratedly flat or exaggeratedly nasal (or a combo of both). The calm state has nothing to do with mimicing an accent.

 

[marie-chantal]

I'm at work right now and can't access it, but if you type into Youtube something along the lines of "how to do an American accent" or "how to sound white", etc, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It means that it was either a white guy or it was someone trying to sound white. It means that the AAVE dialect was not heard during the call. I personally don't subscribe to the theory that the killer is African-American, but anything is possible, I guess.

When it comes to writing, it's harder to tell someone's descent if they're writing in standard English. If they're writing informally, then it is possible to detect age, race, ethnicity, gender, native language, social class, level of education and general area in which they live.

Got something you'd like me to analyze? I love, love, love looking at writing samples.

I don't do handwriting analysis though. I can only do linguistic analyses.

Well, if my opinion, he is African-American would be solely based on the phone calls, it would be a little thin. But otherwise, what you say, explains to me why people when they try to simulate someone else's speech patterns are always so low at first. Unfortunately, I have no probes from those phone calls, that would be interesting!

So to add all the things up:

Voice: It can be a white or a black

Content: The return to the lifestyle subject is in essence marker for some kind of religious upbringing (not necessarily exclusive) in a religion, with a base tradition of self-righteous judgements against prostitutes plus a deeply anchored tradition of self-justified punishment against prostitutes ... apologizes, I forgot to add: IN MY OPINION. Take a look at Jezebel in the Bible and IN MY OPINION, I think, the gist is clear. And well, Mary Magdalene is also such an example.

Victimology: Some think, the victims are similar and establish a type, despite the fact, that the similar factors are only gender (built with a stretch) and race. However, IN MY OPINION, this isn't enough to establish a type. And on a side note, I never found an SK who based a type on only built and gender and race, unless, it was a victimology more like Lemuel Smith, Gary Carlton, Bernard Jackson and such. So such an ambiguous "type" which doesn't include any primary visual markers would be a new one for me.

That makes IN MY OPINION two out of three (two half ones and a full one) markers indicating an African-American, rather mission-based offender.

 

[Justiceforever]

Yes it is. In the United States, there is the AAVE (African-American Vernacular English). This is unique to the US; for example, in the UK, people of African descent do not sound differently from their caucasian counterparts. I took a semester of AAVE linguistics when I was getting my master's degree and it was absolutely fascinating. As a doctoral student, I've kept up on research and followed advocates who push for the recognition of the legitimacy of this form of American English. I'd be happy to point anyone toward articles, authors, etc.

AAVE manifests itself in its own speech patterns, grammar structures, and tones. Of course people from other backgrounds can speak in this manner, just as African-Americans can speak without this dialect. However, this dialect can be "heard" by the listener when conversing on the phone.

So it leaves us with two options: the caller was white, or the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a "white" accent. If the person sounded really nasal when they were speaking, it is highly possible that the caller was an African-American who was trying to mimic a white person. I'd love to hear a sample of the call. It would answer so many questions.

By the way-weight is something that can be heard (in some cases), when listening to a speech sample.

Thank you for sharing. I know this dialect well as I've spent most of my life around people who speak it. I also know that when you hear a white person who "sounds black" that unless they are well versed in it and it comes natural, it inveritably sounds FAKE. So it would be very helpful to hear the call because I'm pretty sure a person can tell if it's fake or not. Maybe he was a black man who came up around "white speaking" people in
which case it wouldn't sound put on. I took a linguistics 101 class my first year in college
and it was fascinating! I.was interested to learn (thank you very much) that you can hear weight...please elaborate if you would be so kind.
al

 

[Theforeigner]

Victimology: Some think, the victims are similar and establish a type, despite the fact, that the similar factors are only gender (built with a stretch) and race. However, IN MY OPINION, this isn't enough to establish a type. And on a side note, I never found an SK who based a type on only built and gender and race, unless, it was a victimology more like Lemuel Smith, Gary Carlton, Bernard Jackson and such. So such an ambiguous "type" which doesn't include any primary visual markers would be a new one for me.

Peter

I belive that you have misunderstod all along what people mean when they state that they belive there is a similarity between the victims.
As I understand it, when people here on WS say that, they are refering to the comparation I have made between the GB4 and the AC4 victims.

I have compared the GB4 and the AC4 victims facial looks, due to that I belive the killer is responsible for both clusters of victims, and indeed found that they IMO are striking lookalikes.

Here is the image where I have added red arrows between the victims, in pairs, that IMO, AND many others, are lookaliks.

I belive that the killer, after the AC4 murders, was trolling internet adds for prostitues that was lookalikes of his lates cluser of victims, the AC4 victims.

 

[marie-chantal]

Thank you for sharing. I know this dialect well as I've spent most of my life around people who speak it. I also know that when you hear a white person who "sounds black" that unless they are well versed in it and it comes natural, it inveritably sounds FAKE. So it would be very helpful to hear the call because I'm pretty sure a person can tell if it's fake or not. Maybe he was a black man who came up around "white speaking" people in
which case it wouldn't sound put on. I took a linguistics 101 class my first year in college
and it was fascinating! I.was interested to learn (thank you very much) that you can hear weight...please elaborate if you would be so kind.
al

BBM

There are always exceptions to every rule, but it is common to hear weight in a voice. When a person is very overweight, their voice contains more breath. This also happens when someone is excited, nervous, talking while running, etc.

Do you remember the hip-hop artist Big Punisher? He is a classic example of how you can hear weight in a person's voice:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEqTbaFVXU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEqTbaFVXU[/ame]
Listen to his voice (not the voice of the singer). Listen to the breath that can be heard as he speaks.

Not all overweight people sound like this, but it does happen more often than not.

 

[Justiceforever]

Thank you MC. I totally understand now. I hear this breathyness (if that's what you call it) in the voices of a few overweight people I know. I also hear it in my own voice at times when I am winded or nervous ( I have asthma ). Thanks for the excellent example!

 

[CriminalMinds]

Thanks PB. I appreciate the time you took doing that comparison. It will help keep me focused. : ) I am not exactly the sharpest sleuth in the drawer ; ) Would love to se you and others join me. I seem to be the only one there. It's pretty cold. lease:

:rocker: I'm there---just silent so far observing/collecting mental data