ATTENTION: IDI's...please explain.....

[JMO8778]

No confusion here (at least on the sweater Check out the pic of the sweater Patsy wore to the Whites. It is red and black over a red turtleneck.

Anything in the basement is subject to transferrence because Patsy and John both interacted with JonBenet carrying her upstairs, putting her to bed, etc. Even if the Ramseys are guilty, fiber evidence would be of little if any use in a conviction.

What we need to look at is what should NOT be there if the Ramseys are guilty (foreign dna, HiTec boot print, palm print, etc.)

Also, another interesting thing that just came out on an A&E program - they found fibers from the rope JonBenet was bound with in her bed. Doubt the parents would need to tie their daughter up to get her out of bed.

Burke's knife was nearby,outside her room,so I think the R's cut the cord there.There may have even been a prior staging there,which was later revised and moved to the basement.The knife was moved to the basement as well.Only the R's and the housekeeper knew where it was hidden...I think they were trying to set up the housekeeper,esp with the way the 'ransom note' was written.

 

[narlacat]

UKGuy happens to be one of my favorite posters here too. He seems extremely smart. There was more read into my comment than their should have been....it was taken way, WAY overboard....and blown completely our of proportion.

Sorry, I should have directed my post more at Solace, re reading I see she was the one saying UKGuy was rude and condescending though you did insult him in post 32.

 

[Credence]

I think you make a valid point.

To know if there even is a consistent pattern of parental behavior in such circumstances I would think someone would have to have delivered the news of a child's murder to the parents in at least 100 cases to even have a real sense of what the reaction usually is like (to know what is always done or to know what is never done etc.) and then that person would have had to follow along to observe longer term behavior as well as the initial shocking first moments. I doubt most of us would have such detailed knowledge from actual experience and I have not heard much about any books of research on the subject (but I suppose books could easily be out there that I haven't heard of.) Even knowing what behavior, if any, is usual in such cases would only help us by raising a red flag to help us know to begin to investigate more for actual evidence.

There are some things about the evidence in the case that speak to me but that will have to be the subject of another post sometime.

I saw in another post where a comment was made that some people would defend some suspects no matter what, so before any posting member thinks I am defending anyone in this case let me say that I am not defending or making excuses for any suspect/s in this case. Someone made a valid point and I thought it good to admit it. When the guilty are proven it will be evidence that turns the day, regardless of any red flags that may be raised by our opinions of behavior and at this point I am not sure we know enough of behaviors in such circumstances to even know a red flag should or should not be raised.

I agree. I just recently read on another board someone bringing up the case in AU where the dingo "ate the baby". The mother was convicted and imprisioned based on circumstantial evidence, comments she made, her behavior (reacting strangely as some put it) and experts saying it was impossible that a dingo would eat human flesh. She has since been freed from jail when a few years later a dingo took another baby and her case was reopened and she was exonerated.

Behavior is just not tangible evidence and there is no "proper" way to act. MOO

 

[Ames]

Sorry, I should have directed my post more at Solace, re reading I see she was the one saying UKGuy was rude and condescending though you did insult him in post 32.

That was NOT meant as an insult.... It was blown WAY out of proportion. He must have not taken it as one, either...because he still acknowledges my posts..by answering or asking me questions concerning them.

 

[Solace]

That was NOT meant as an insult.... It was blown WAY out of proportion. He must have not taken it as one, either...because he still acknowledges my posts..by answering or asking me questions concerning them.

I think UK can take care of himself or herself.

 

[rashomon]

No confusion here (at least on the sweater Check out the pic of the sweater Patsy wore to the Whites. It is red and black over a red turtleneck.

Now it's me who is confused: didn't Patsy wear an red and black jacket over a red turtleneck?
From SuperDave's post:

her sweater was completely red, not red and black.

You seem to call the jacket 'sweater', Alexi. But isn't 'sweater' a kind of pullover? (I'm no native speaker).
Would one call a jacket 'sweater'?
And just curious: where can I see a picture of that (SteveThomas called it jacket) sweater?

Anything in the basement is subject to transferrence because Patsy and John both interacted with JonBenet carrying her upstairs, putting her to bed, etc. Even if the Ramseys are guilty, fiber evidence would be of little if any use in a conviction.

But why then were none of Patsy's fibers found on JB's body itself, but only in these incriminating locations: in the garrote, on the duct tape and in the paint tray?
And how on earth did fibers from John's shirt get into the crotch area of JB's oversized underwear?
The fiber evidence links both Ramseys to the staging of the scene.

What we need to look at is what should NOT be there if the Ramseys are guilty (foreign dna, HiTec boot print, palm print, etc.)

Wasn't this palm print from either Patsy or Melinda Ramsey?

Also, another interesting thing that just came out on an A&E program - they found fibers from the rope JonBenet was bound with in her bed. Doubt the parents would need to tie their daughter up to get her out of bed.

The first question to ask is always: how reliable is the source of a specific info? For in case this A&E program was just some pro-Ramsey slanted 'crockumentary', forget it.
Did the lab find that out? Or were there just some rope fibers found in JB's room without actually having been matched to the murder ligature?

 

[Pepper]

Even when JonBenet's body was found...John simply yelled..."I found her"...and Fleet yelled to "call an ambulance"....STILL....Patsy's butt sat on the couch, not budging an inch. If it were me, and my husband had yelled "I FOUND her!"....and Fleet yelled to call an ambulance....here is MY thoughts and actions. "OH MY GOSH.....THANK you God.....she has been found IN THE HOUSE....she must be injured, since Fleet said to call an ambulance, and since she is still IN THE HOUSE. I have to get to her her...and see if I can help!!! Everybody...get out of my way...because I am COMING through...I have to help my baby". Patsy's reaction: She still stayed seated....not budging an inch....her friends had to PULL her down the hallway. What a strange reaction for someone that SUPPOSEDLY didn't know if her child was alive and injured...or dead. People would have been trying to HOLD ME BACK...because I would have been knocking people down to get to my MAYBE injured child....not having to PULL me down the hallway. My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead.....HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's behavior?

All I can say is that I can imagine me doing the exact same thing. My nature is not to react immediately to shock or an emergency. I freeze and don't move. So to me that reaction is not unusual at all.

 

[rashomon]

All I can say is that I can imagine me doing the exact same thing. My nature is not to react immediately to shock or an emergency. I freeze and don't move. So to me that reaction is not unusual at all.

It is the totality of Patsy Ramseys suspicious behavior which adds up imo.
For example, when covering her face with her hands in alleged 'grief', a policeman noticed that she eyed him through splayed fingers. Eyeing through splayed fingers can't be explained away by a mother being in shock. I think a person eyeing someone through splayed fingers in this situation wants to see if her performance is convincing.

Patsy sat frozen on the couch when everybody else was in turmoil, but as soon as JB's body had been put on the living room floor, she switched gears in no time, theatrically throwing herself on the body: "Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead!"
Imo such a performance does not point to a person being in shock at all.

 

[mrsjonnob]

Interesting post...

Like a previos posted stated, I have "lost" one of my kids in my home... my son climbed into a linen cupboard when he was 3 or 4 (playing hide and seek with older siblings) and fell asleep. I never once stopped looking... I was all over the house looking for him... in part due to just nervous energy.

If my child had been missing for hours, and she was suddenly found in the house and I heard someone yell to call an ambulance, I would assume my child was alive and there is no way you could keep me from going to her. IMO, Patsy knew Jon Benet was dead and that is why she didn't rush to her child's side.

 

[Alexi]

Now it's me who is confused: didn't Patsy wear an red and black jacket over a red turtleneck?
From SuperDave's post:
You seem to call the jacket 'sweater', Alexi. But isn't 'sweater' a kind of pullover? (I'm no native speaker).
Would one call a jacket 'sweater'?
And just curious: where can I see a picture of that (SteveThomas called it jacket) sweater?


But why then were none of Patsy's fibers found on JB's body itself, but only in these incriminating locations: in the garrote, on the duct tape and in the paint tray?
And how on earth did fibers from John's shirt get into the crotch area of JB's oversized underwear?
The fiber evidence links both Ramseys to the staging of the scene.
Wasn't this palm print from either Patsy or Melinda Ramsey?
The first question to ask is always: how reliable is the source of a specific info? For in case this A&E program was just some pro-Ramsey slanted 'crockumentary', forget it.
Did the lab find that out? Or were there just some rope fibers found in JB's room without actually having been matched to the murder ligature?

rashomon,

I don't know how to break out quotes like you did, but I'll try to answer each of your points.

I would call the jacket a cardigan type of sweater. I can see where a guy might call it a jacket, but it would be more like a suit jacket (meant to be work indoors).

Will try to get you a URL for the pic. I've seen it several times, but I think the last time I saw it was in a book.

My understanding is that it was this sweater/jacket that the red fibers appeared to match. Fibers could have been wiped from JBs body or simply fallen off. It would be more difficult to shake them off a rope or piece of duct tape. As for the paint tray, I'd be surprised if they didn't find lots of different fibers in there if it's anything like my paint tray.

Hadn't heard about fibers from John's shirt being found. Where did you get that info?

I agree - fiber evidence could indicate the parents --- or it could simply indicate two parents carrying their child upstairs and putting her to bed.

The last I heard, the palm print had yet to be identified.

We all have to make our own decisions about reliable sources. I try to read books from both sides of the aisle, ditto with tv programs. That way, I can make up my own mind.

The rope fibers were found on the sheets of JB's bed and were identical to the rope used to bind her hands and garrote her. This was in the original lab reports and just released in this report.

 

[rashomon]

[Alexi]Check out the pic of the sweater Patsy wore to the Whites. It is red and black over a red turtleneck.

[Alexi]
As I said in my other response, the sweater I am talking about was the one Patsy was photographed in at the White's party.

But no picture of that party has ever been released, Alexi. Didn't you know that?
Therefore my question: How could you have seen a photo of Patsy wearing that red and black sweater/jacket to the Whites' party?

The rope fibers were found on the sheets of JB's bed and were identical to the rope used to bind her hands and garrote her. This was in the original lab reports and just released in this report.

Question to all: is this true? Were fibers from the ligature found on the sheets of JB's bed? Was this in the "original lab reports" which were just released in this A&E documentary or (I live in Germany and can't watch A&E) 'crockumentary'?

[edited to add]:
I just read this in your latest post, Alexi:

Will try to get you a URL for the pic. I've seen it several times, but I think the last time I saw it was in a book.

Question to all: has anyone ever seen a picture of Patsy's red and black jacket which she wore to the Whites? If yes, where?

 

[narlacat]

That was NOT meant as an insult.... It was blown WAY out of proportion. He must have not taken it as one, either...because he still acknowledges my posts..by answering or asking me questions concerning them.

Yeah things do around here, I should shut up because I've been warned before about backing people up...

Ames and Solace, you are entitled to think what you think of UKGuy, I was just surprised to read what you both said as I've always found UKGuy to be very approachable and very knowledgeable on this case.

All cool?

 

[coloradokares]

But no picture of that party has ever been released, Alexi. Didn't you know that?
Therefore my question: How could you have seen a photo of Patsy wearing that red and black sweater/jacket to the Whites' party?
Question to all: is this true? Were fibers from the ligature found on the sheets of JB's bed? Was this in the "original lab reports" which were just released in this A&E documentary or (I live in Germany and can't watch A&E) 'crockumentary'?

My unerstanding there were rope fibers from the rope in the spare bedroom the one that JAR had used. it was a hemp based rope NOT the rope that was used to garotte JonBenet. If fibers from the rope that garotted JonBenet had been found in JonBenet's room I want to see that information .

 

[coloradokares]

rashomon,

I don't know how to break out quotes like you did, but I'll try to answer each of your points.

I would call the jacket a cardigan type of sweater. I can see where a guy might call it a jacket, but it would be more like a suit jacket (meant to be work indoors).

Will try to get you a URL for the pic. I've seen it several times, but I think the last time I saw it was in a book.

My understanding is that it was this sweater/jacket that the red fibers appeared to match. Fibers could have been wiped from JBs body or simply fallen off. It would be more difficult to shake them off a rope or piece of duct tape. As for the paint tray, I'd be surprised if they didn't find lots of different fibers in there if it's anything like my paint tray.

Hadn't heard about fibers from John's shirt being found. Where did you get that info? It was in was it deposition leading up to the Grand Jury

I agree - fiber evidence could indicate the parents --- or it could simply indicate two parents carrying their child upstairs and putting her to bed.

The last I heard, the palm print had yet to be identified.

This wa sourced to a partial from John Ramseys daughter

We all have to make our own decisions about reliable sources. I try to read books from both sides of the aisle, ditto with tv programs. That way, I can make up my own mind.

The rope fibers were found on the sheets of JB's bed and were identical to the rope used to bind her hands and garrote her. This was in the original lab reports and just released in this report.

I need to see this please. What report and what original lab report please provide link or page number or article or something if you would be so kind

 

[Credence]

But no picture of that party has ever been released, Alexi. Didn't you know that?
Therefore my question: How could you have seen a photo of Patsy wearing that red and black sweater/jacket to the Whites' party?
Question to all: is this true? Were fibers from the ligature found on the sheets of JB's bed? Was this in the "original lab reports" which were just released in this A&E documentary or (I live in Germany and can't watch A&E) 'crockumentary'?

[edited to add]:
I just read this in our lates post, Alexi:
Question to all: has anyone ever seen a picture of Patsy's red and black jacket which she wore to the Whites? If yes, where?

Pictures to my knowledge have not been released from the 25th. In everything I've read she wore a red turtleneck under a red, black and gray checked fleece/acrylic? jacket.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Even when JonBenet's body was found...John simply yelled..."I found her"...and Fleet yelled to "call an ambulance"....STILL....Patsy's butt sat on the couch, not budging an inch. If it were me, and my husband had yelled "I FOUND her!"....and Fleet yelled to call an ambulance....here is MY thoughts and actions. "OH MY GOSH.....THANK you God.....she has been found IN THE HOUSE....she must be injured, since Fleet said to call an ambulance, and since she is still IN THE HOUSE. I have to get to her her...and see if I can help!!! Everybody...get out of my way...because I am COMING through...I have to help my baby". Patsy's reaction: She still stayed seated....not budging an inch....her friends had to PULL her down the hallway. What a strange reaction for someone that SUPPOSEDLY didn't know if her child was alive and injured...or dead. People would have been trying to HOLD ME BACK...because I would have been knocking people down to get to my MAYBE injured child....not having to PULL me down the hallway. My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead.....HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's behavior?

Explaining away the mystery verbage in the ransom note (SBTC, fat cats, Victory!, etc.), and the overdone, complicated garrote with 2nd ligature (still looking for a full explanation), and the sudden need to kill an otherwise dressable and pageant competitive little girl. Mom didn't do it. Thats a quick-fix, wishful thinking approach to wrapping up an open case.

The killer is still out there, and he writes just like the ransom note writing. He uses expressions just like the ransom note uses. He kills just like JBR was killed.

 

[Ames]

It is the totality of Patsy Ramseys suspicious behavior which adds up imo.
For example, when covering her face with her hands in alleged 'grief', a policeman noticed that she eyed him through splayed fingers. Eyeing through splayed fingers can't be explained away by a mother being in shock. I think a person eyeing someone through splayed fingers in this situation wants to see if her performance is convincing.

Patsy sat frozen on the couch when everybody else was in turmoil, but as soon as JB's body had been put on the living room floor, she switched gears in no time, theatrically throwing herself on the body: "Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead!"
Imo such a performance does not point to a person being in shock at all.

No it doesn't. She sure did get out of her "FROZEN" stage, pretty quickly...didn't she? She did the opposite of what I would have done....as I have stated at least "100" times on these boards....IF I had of heard John say "I FOUND HER!" (like she was hiding in the closet) and then Fleet say.."CALL AN AMUBLANCE"....my relex would have been to jump up and run like h*ll down that hall to my baby...who, in my mind...was PROBABLY injured....SINCE she was found in the house..and there was NO mention of her being dead...by John OR Fleet....just simply..."I FOUND HER"...."CALL AN AMBULANCE!". After I got there, and John brought her stiff body up, and she was OBVIOUSLY dead....THEN I WOULD HAVE FROZEN....I would have been in shock...and THEN hysterical. I wouldn't have thought to fling myself on her, and beg Jesus to raise her from the dead....I would have been in TOTAL shock. Patsy of course....did the OPPOSITE. She has raised more red flags...than I can count. So many red flags...that it looks like a sea of blood.

 

[Ames]

Interesting post...

Like a previos posted stated, I have "lost" one of my kids in my home... my son climbed into a linen cupboard when he was 3 or 4 (playing hide and seek with older siblings) and fell asleep. I never once stopped looking... I was all over the house looking for him... in part due to just nervous energy.

If my child had been missing for hours, and she was suddenly found in the house and I heard someone yell to call an ambulance, I would assume my child was alive and there is no way you could keep me from going to her. IMO, Patsy knew Jon Benet was dead and that is why she didn't rush to her child's side.

My thoughts exactly!!! That's why I started this thread.....

 

[Ames]

<snipped>

Question to all: is this true? Were fibers from the ligature found on the sheets of JB's bed?

Never heard that one before...

Question to all: has anyone ever seen a picture of Patsy's red and black jacket which she wore to the Whites? Nope, I haven't...because the pictures haven't been released to the public.

If yes, where?

 

[Ames]

<snipped>
All cool?

Yep...LOL...all cool!!