Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #17

[ActusReus]

I don't think that this is right CC. This link should establish that

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1963/44.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=plomp

Not sure if I am able to explain the upshot of that case without going through the vertification process on the forum, so best to just take a look at it. Interestingly enough, the case which finally settled that a person accused of a homicide can be convicted on circumstantial evidence alone for the purpsoes of the criminal law in Qld, was the case of a wife murdered at Southport.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/tas/TASCCA/2012/2.html

Just to add to Hawkins post about convictions on circumstantial evidence only. The link is to a recent appeal in the Tas Court of Criminal Appeal. The appeal was dismissed although a slight reduction in the head sentence was achieved.

If you read through the appeal it clearly highlights the foundation for the conviction.

IMO the DPP would be quite prepared to take the case to trial on circumstantial evidence provided that the evidence was enough to leave no other alternative than accused.

 

[True]

Thanks! That was in 1963. Do you believe "beyond reasonable doubt" is treated the same way today? What I mean is, for example, the Gabe Watson case of his wife dying while diving, there seems to have been a lot of circumstantial evidence, opportunity and motive, but he was let go.

GOOD POINT CASECLOSED. YES, I THOUGHT HE WAS DONE LIKE A ROAST DINNER! That verdict astounded me!

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks! That was in 1963. Do you believe "beyond reasonable doubt" is treated the same way today? What I mean is, for example, the Gabe Watson case of his wife dying while diving, there seems to have been a lot of circumstantial evidence, opportunity and motive, but he was let go.

There was no admissible evidence of intention in his case, which is why the judge in the US instructed the jury to acquit him. He was convicted of causing her death in Qld and served a sentence for it. Both those facts were dealt with extensively in the media so not going to look for links. Lots of cases where it looks very suspiciously like a murder, the accused is only charged with manslaughter because it's so hard to establish intention unless the accused has made death threats, or there are witnesses to the violence. Hytch is a prime example.

 

[Keentoknow]

I don't think that this is right CC. This link should establish that

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1963/44.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=plomp

Not sure if I am able to explain the upshot of that case without going through the vertification process on the forum, so best to just take a look at it. Interestingly enough, the case which finally settled that a person accused of a homicide can be convicted on circumstantial evidence alone for the purpsoes of the criminal law in Qld, was the case of a wife murdered at Southport.

Thanks for your guidance and directions..... we need you every ten mins.

 

[Happymedium]

Regarding the "geocaching". Does a geocache hold information? What does it do> Let off a signal and people go looking for it?...What is it in aid of? Im confused.

Geocaching is a world-wide hunting game by using a handheld GPS...there's millions of caches everywhere...there's probably ones hidden right where you live Willough...lol. Actually we are all going past caches everyday and don't know it.
It's basically to encourage people, families, kids to get out and enjoy nature.
It's educational, fun, great exercise and very competitive.
Most caches contain swaps...which are things you take and replace with something else...kids love that part cause most of the swaps are toys, keyrings, stickers etc.

By downloading the geocache from the website to your GPS...you then get navigated to the location...following clues and hints.
Caches can range in size from being a very small container...or to a massive ammo tin. I know of one in Ferny Grove that is the size of a phone booth.

Many organisations have their own Geo-coins and support the game.

 

[mountainhigh]

With all due respect, Alcohol can be a major contributing factor to crime. In an extreme example, Jeffery Dahmer could not commit his crimes unless he was drunk. Also it can alter ones mood and lower inhibitions dramatically. I think it's a valid point.
Dutch courage it's widely known as.

Fair point, although admittedly I think we all use the word dutch courage in a more trivial sense, such as a bloke in a bar downing half a dozen beers before working up the courage to go over and chat a girl up..... or a few sharp ales before a best man makes his speech at a wedding ....I have never personally heard it used any other way to be honest.

You are right however in saying that alcohol contributes in a major way to crime because it does, particulary DV and 'street' violence and countless other crimes. Although i am sure drugs are quickly overtaking it..

however, in reference to a post before about the meeting at the church or something along those lines (I really didn't take too much notice of it to be honest because it was that much off the radar), isn't this a meeting full of sober people trying not to be drunk?? or affected famlies??

I think with everything we have been told to date we can rule out a random drunk or druggie murdering ACB and stealing the two cars and taking her body to Kholo Creek and then returning the cars back to the house....???

 

[True]

This is off topic I know, but it's relevant in discussing intent. I read that Watson badgered his wife about a life insurance policy, a policy that was active on the event of her death. They had expert witness stating he lied about how quickly he surfaced to get help and that she sunk to the bottom slowly, hardly the actions of a woman fighting for breath. It was his own description and experts argued the only way she would have sunk to the bottom slowly was if she were already dead. Her air tank was full and showed no signs of malfunction. Isn't a recent insurance policy a very strong motive? Don't his actions how intent? Please forgive me, I'm not the greatest Sleuther at court proceedings...just trying to understand!

 

[willough]

Geocaching is a world-wide hunting game by using a handheld GPS...there's millions of caches everywhere...there's probably ones hidden right where you live Willough...lol. Actually we are all going past caches everyday and don't know it.
It's basically to encourage people, families, kids to get out and enjoy nature.
It's educational, fun, great exercise and very competitive.
Most caches contain swaps...which are things you take and replace with something else...kids love that part cause most of the swaps are toys, keyrings, stickers etc.

By downloading the geocache from the website to your GPS...you then get navigated to the location...following clues and hints.
Caches can range in size from being a very small container...or to a massive ammo tin. I know of one in Ferny Grove that is the size of a phone booth.

Many organisations have their own Geo-coins and support the game.

Thats really interesting....Im sorry if it seemed i was putting it down...I didnt understand it and initially thought it ridiculous, but you are so right....Anything that gets people out and about is good. The only worrying aspect is that something the police sources are used, when they are items confused as being bombs. Other than that, sounds rather excellent. Almost like a nice marriage of technology and as I mentioned earlier, orienteering.

 

[Berry]

IN this picture I believe the shape on the right hand side is a police office is it not? I remember catching that shape move on the video. He seemed to be pointing to different locations to the photographer above.

Yes correct, even thought the item in his hand looks like a light coloured vid camera to show the steep path and bank down to access the under bridge spot too.

 

[CaseClosed]

Geocaching is a world-wide hunting game by using a handheld GPS...there's millions of caches everywhere...there's probably ones hidden right where you live Willough...lol. Actually we are all going past caches everyday and don't know it.
It's basically to encourage people, families, kids to get out and enjoy nature.
It's educational, fun, great exercise and very competitive.
Most caches contain swaps...which are things you take and replace with something else...kids love that part cause most of the swaps are toys, keyrings, stickers etc.

By downloading the geocache from the website to your GPS...you then get navigated to the location...following clues and hints.
Caches can range in size from being a very small container...or to a massive ammo tin. I know of one in Ferny Grove that is the size of a phone booth.

Many organisations have their own Geo-coins and support the game.

I'm pretty tech savvy but have never heard of this! I must be getting old ... :anguish:

 

[Hawkins]

This is off topic I know, but it's relevant in discussing intent. I read that Watson badgered his wife about a life insurance policy, a policy that was active on the event of her death. They had expert witness stating he lied about how quickly he surfaced to get help and that she sunk to the bottom slowly, hardly the actions of a woman fighting for breath. It was his own description and experts argued the only way she would have sunk to the bottom slowly was if she were already dead. Her air tank was full and showed no signs of malfunction. Isn't a recent insurance policy a very strong motive? Don't his actions how intent? Please forgive me, I'm not the greatest Sleuther at court proceedings...just trying to understand!

Almost everyone has life insurance and lots of people increase it when they get married, go on holdiay overseas etc. Can be part of the circumstantial mix re motive but in the absence of other very strong evidence it's not that useful. Looks sus of course, but looking sus is a long way from beyond reasonable doubt. And a life insurance policy is not evidence of any intention other than to insure somebody's life. The evidence about his rate of ascent was patchy and mishandled by the detectives if you read some of the material which is readily available online. The evidence in relation to his dive computer in particular was poorly handled. No expert proved that Watson lied about anything. There was no evidence that she could only have sunk to the bottom if she was dead, but she was probably unconscious. Either way she wasn't conscious to inflate her BCD. In the court of public opinion and maybe common sense it probably looks very much like he gave her a bear hug, turned off her air, wiated for her to pass out, let her sink then left for the surface. That's what I believe probably happened. But what looks like common sense and what you and I believe isn't admissible in court. IMO. MOO.

 

[Berry]

I would not know for sure. I assume, they did not because there were no arrests made. Any finding, really, would lead to arrest. JMO.

ANY finding????

No my dear, it has to be the whole, fitting, full kebab of evidence to make an arrest; not just any...........

 

[Hawkins]

I have to go to bed but just wanted to say to those who have left flowers etc that you are awesome human beings to care so genuinely for this woman and her family. I suspect that you'll be able to at least see that some justice is done in this case. There will be a trial and conviction(s) eventually IMO. MOO.

 

[willough]

Almost everyone has life insurance and lots of people increase it when they get married, go on holdiay overseas etc.

Maybe everyone you know in your circles of Margarita's on the bay (not meant as a criticism) have it. Alot of people cant even afford medical insurance, let alone life insurance or T&PD Insurance.

I know every adult in my family have it...But I know many who dont.

 

[Berry]

YES. - I think of her spirit having left her body the second she died, not when she was disposed of.

But it is not a better place in my opinion.

 

[frustrated detective]

I remember seeing a arial shot of the body early on now it is blurred out. But after looking at other arial shots it looks like she ws very high up on the bank. I dont know how high the tide gets there but seemed a bit to high to me.

If the body was found in the water the shot may have been taken after police had moved it out of the water ready to be taken away.

I am trying to recall whether the police ever made clear statement about whether the body was discovered in or out of the water?

 

[Berry]

I've enlarged this pic and indicated with the arrows where Allison and the policeman are.

I'm sorry if this photo is offensive. I find it very disturbing but I like to think that Allison is in a better place now, looking over her three little girls. What we see on that riverbank is Allison's shell. Her spirit will live on forever.

Click image to enlarge.

But it is not a better place in my opinion.
*advertiser censored* RIP Allison who wanted to LIVE.

 

[Hawkins]

Maybe everyone you know in your circles of Margarita's on the bay (not meant as a criticism) have it. Alot of people cant even afford medical insurance, let alone life insurance or T&PD Insurance.

I know every adult in my family have it...But I know many who dont.

Doesn't everyone who has super have a life insurance component? I thought it was compulsory but I am no expert on superannuation.

 

[Keentoknow]

I don't think that this is right CC. This link should establish that

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1963/44.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=plomp

Not sure if I am able to explain the upshot of that case without going through the vertification process on the forum, so best to just take a look at it. Interestingly enough, the case which finally settled that a person accused of a homicide can be convicted on circumstantial evidence alone for the purpsoes of the criminal law in Qld, was the case of a wife murdered at Southport.

Hawkins please tell.
Will the defence be getting scientific tests done as well later.
Like Joy Cool was the scientist in Chamberlain trial and the blood was samples were sent to the UK.

 

[Makara]

But it is not a better place in my opinion.
*advertiser censored* RIP Allison who wanted to LIVE.

I respect your opinion and understand how you feel.