Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[Spinnaker]

Let us make it simple. Maybe Birnie knew the alleged CSK from when he was a kid. Maybe they were in social networks that intersected? Maybe David and Catherine were closer to the alleged CSK than assumed? Too bad that visitor logs at prison are not public.
But the reality is probably that Catherine Birnie was just big noting and was untruthful. The author assumed that she was talking about Sarah McMahon, and the coroner's inquest makes it plain that she's not a CSK victim.

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I agree PD, it is very possible that CB was big noting - there are however similarities with KM location and the locations of the CSK victims prior to being abducted (Cottesloe, Claremont, Stirling Highway).

There is a possibility that the CSK was emulating the Birnies when he chose Claremont.

The Alleged CSK was approx 18 years old during the Birnies' murderous and violent rampage - perhaps this made an impression on him. JIMO

 

[DRT]

Is the CSK a 'copycat' in any way?

Burnies' victims below:

Mary Neilson, Oct 6, 1986 abducted from tyre shop - found Gleneagles National Park
Susannah Candy, Oct 20, 1986 abducted from Claremont, Stirling Highway - found State Forrest, not far from Mary.
Noelene Patterson, Nov 1, 1986 abducted from Canning Highway - found State Forrest, not far from Mary and Susannah.
Denis Brown 5 Nov, 1986 abducted from Stirling Highway - found Gnangara Pine Plantation
Kate Moir Nov 10,1986 - escaped

Other potential victims
Cheryl Renwick in May 1986, Barbara Western in June 1986 and Lisa Mott, 30 October, 1980.
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainmen...vid-and-catherine-birnie-20170208-gu8o1o.html

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/birnie-david.htm

Was Kate Moir taken from Stirling Hwy as well? Sharon Mason taken from a bus stop on Stirling Hwy.

What is interesting about the Brinie's is that David gave up the four known victims fairly quickly when questioned by Katich. Cops really had nothing on them at that stage except possible abduction and sexual assault of Moir.

Stirling Hwy has a definate connection, but don't know if the first victim Catherine was talking about before SS was taken from there.

The other potential victims, Lisa Mott hasn't been found and the other two were decapitated from some reports. I'm theorising maybe he gave the four victims up quickly to hide involvement and questioning on the others. The extent of their injuries and why they were killed in that way could bring up ritual or satanic connections and possible involvement of others that he wouldn't want to get into, IMO.

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...e/news-story/9304099ceb7f9966e7fecbd3999e1173

BBM
Cheryl Renwick is still missing. http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Renwick.htm Have you got links to Barbara Western?

 

[Spinnaker]

Cheryl Renwick is still missing. http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Renwick.htm Have you got links to Barbara Western?

Re Cheryl Renwick - strange her colleagues thought to check at airport for car- article below:

https://thewest.com.au/news/australia/missing-mum-case-still-puzzle-25-years-on-ng-ya-166819

Below also states that "[FONT=&amp]Ms Renwick said police had since told her they no longer believed the cases were linked because it did not fit the Birnies’ “MO”.

[/FONT]https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/missing-mum-linked-to-birnie-murders-ng-b88374591z

 

[DRT]

I agree PD, it is very possible that CB was big noting - there are however similarities with KM location and the locations of the CSK victims prior to being abducted (Cottesloe, Claremont, Stirling Highway).

There is a possibility that the CSK was emulating the Birnies when he chose Claremont.

The Alleged CSK was approx 18 years old during the Birnies' murderous and violent rampage - perhaps this made an impression on him. JIMO

Maybe a young attractive girl going missing in a nightclub district who is not likely to be a runaway smells like a serial killer. I feel it was just a guess. It never would have been mentioned by the author if two more girls in Claremont hadn't gone missing.

 

[DRT]

Re Cheryl Renwick - strange her colleagues thought to check at airport for car- article below:

https://thewest.com.au/news/australia/missing-mum-case-still-puzzle-25-years-on-ng-ya-166819

Below also states that "[FONT=&amp]Ms Renwick said police had since told her they no longer believed the cases were linked because it did not fit the Birnies’ “MO”.

[/FONT]https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/missing-mum-linked-to-birnie-murders-ng-b88374591z

Hi Spinnaker
The reference I meant was about the other two being decapitated.
"The other potential victims, Lisa Mott hasn't been found and the other two were decapitated from some reports."

Thanks for the links.

 

[petedavo.au]

I agree PD, it is very possible that CB was big noting - there are however similarities with KM location and the locations of the CSK victims prior to being abducted (Cottesloe, Claremont, Stirling Highway).

There is a possibility that the CSK was emulating the Birnies when he chose Claremont.

The Alleged CSK was approx 18 years old during the Birnies' murderous and violent rampage - perhaps this made an impression on him. JIMO

Maybe we'll find that they hung out at the speedway together and that David gave the alleged CSK an old taxi roof light as a souvenir from the wreckers he was working at for his birthday, but none of this can be substantiated from online sources, only from the people themselves, and David won't ever be talking again. And I'm sure that if Catherine actually knew who the CSK was, she'd be calling the author back the day after the arrest to gloat that she knew all along, and spill the beans on how she knew him. For this reason, I'll heavily discount any validity to this.

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[DRT]

Murder Uncovered - Episode 01 - The Kate Moir Story https://vimeo.com/204972219 Time 24:37

Shows Mary Neilson went to Oriental Auto Dismantlers quoted as "Oriental Spares" where her father had an account where David Birnie was working.

 

[petedavo.au]

Murder Uncovered - Episode 01 - The Kate Moir Story https://vimeo.com/204972219 Time 24:37

Shows Mary Neilson went to Oriental Auto Dismantlers quoted as "Oriental Spares" where her father had an account where David Birnie was working.

old records;
ORIENTAL AUTO DISMANTLERS WA. PlY LTD.; 76 MCCOY STREET, MYAREE WA. 6154; Body Corporate; Licence no 3951
http://www.aupage.net/company/oriental+auto+wreckers+myaree,+wa/2859464063
https://www.slp.wa.gov.au/gazette/g...8F885AF62AD6CC82572AB0083893C/$file/gg016.pdf
ABN details only go back to 2000 unfortunately.
https://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbnHistory.aspx?SearchText=74381752542#
https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/R...ype=OrgAndBusNm&_adf.ctrl-state=3mfwtmkpb_106
ASIC records just say that the business name Oriental Auto Wreckers was registered once, nothing much else. Certainly doesn't give up the owners name, nor if they were connected to sponsoring a car or team at Claremont Speedway

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[El Gordo]

Im sticking to my boring theory that Stirling Highway is the only connecting link in these crimes for one reason only
It is the only road close to late night entertainment areas that it could have been done

Fremantle and Northbridge have to many people on the streets , to many one way streets and to many police in the areas

To make my theory even more boring , ive ruled out blitz attacks , because there were no screams heard , you would be heard for miles in that area late at night

There were no handbags , purses , jackets , anything dropped ... something would have been in a struggle

I also rule out blitz attacks because that would mean the culprit would have to get it right everytime , no mistakes , no screams , nothing dropped ... thats not going to happen , there would have been someone who got away

That leaves that the victims went willingly , with no fuss or bother , the taxi thing makes sense but only because of lack of alternatives ...there was talk / rumors at the time about a security guard being involved , not a bouncer , but the mobile uniformed type , but would a woman get in a car with a security guard if they were offered a lift , i dont know ... maybe if they were told there were prowlers or something in the area

Its all guess work and ill keep guessing

 

[no name]

Re Cheryl Renwick strange her colleagues thought to check at airport for car

Begs the question as to how reliant police were/are on alibis to immediately eliminate people entirely. Probably a little too much Im thinking.
The 'we checked the airport on a hunch, maybe the Birnies did it' is too much for me to entertain if its accurately reported.

 

[no name]

Im sticking to my boring theory that Stirling Highway is the only connecting link in these crimes for one reason only
It is the only road close to late night entertainment areas that it could have been done

I also rule out blitz attacks because that would mean the culprit would have to get it right everytime , no mistakes , no screams , nothing dropped ... thats not going to happen , there would have been someone who got away.

But there are examples of potential victims that got away & there probably is more of them. Cott/Swanbourne Drive In, laneway bashing, searching for keys girl. Plus, if any others came forward to police to report attacks, particularly after any of the girls went missing, I dont think for a second that the cops would let that slip. They have footage of the missing girls we've never seen & we're not sure where police believe JR or CG were last seen exactly. These girls were murdered. Theres no way they'd be letting the media release details of any other attempts especially if the victims were able to give some kind of description. Perth media is quite happy to play by police rules for the most part, as we know.

 

[El Gordo]

But there are examples of potential victims that got away & there probably is more of them. Cott/Swanbourne Drive In, laneway bashing, searching for keys girl. Plus, if any others came forward to police to report attacks, particularly after any of the girls went missing, I dont think for a second that the cops would let that slip. They have footage of the missing girls we've never seen & we're not sure where police believe JR or CG were last seen exactly. These girls were murdered. Theres no way they'd be letting the media release details of any other attempts especially if the victims were able to give some kind of description. Perth media is quite happy to play by police rules for the most part, as we know.

I agree entirely re potential victims , but im happy to leave the potentials out of things , this is why i refer to my way of looking as the boring theory , some of the potential victims may well be a part of this , but i doubt they all are

I also agree with the media not being a reliable source , the same media that supplied the information re the potential victims ... anyone who has ever been involved in any major news event knows that the media do not let the truth get in the way of a good story

Im not criticizing anyone elses theories , i just prefer to work on basics , its complicated enough with them , its easy to slot things in and out to see where they fit around the basics if there seems to be a need to do so

 

[Spinnaker]

Im sticking to my boring theory that Stirling Highway is the only connecting link in these crimes for one reason only
It is the only road close to late night entertainment areas that it could have been done

Fremantle and Northbridge have to many people on the streets , to many one way streets and to many police in the areas

To make my theory even more boring , ive ruled out blitz attacks , because there were no screams heard , you would be heard for miles in that area late at night

There were no handbags , purses , jackets , anything dropped ... something would have been in a struggle

I also rule out blitz attacks because that would mean the culprit would have to get it right everytime , no mistakes , no screams , nothing dropped ... thats not going to happen , there would have been someone who got away

That leaves that the victims went willingly , with no fuss or bother , the taxi thing makes sense but only because of lack of alternatives ...there was talk / rumors at the time about a security guard being involved , not a bouncer , but the mobile uniformed type , but would a woman get in a car with a security guard if they were offered a lift , i dont know ... maybe if they were told there were prowlers or something in the area

Its all guess work and ill keep guessing

There is someone confirmed as getting away El Gordo - the KK victim. She certainly did not go willingly and would be classified as a blitz attack.

My guess would be that was a mixture of blitz, manipulation & at times throwing on the charm - I also believe there is a taxi element somewhere along the line.

 

[Innerchild]

Agree entirely with the big noting , when your only visitors are likely to be vultures looking for a story you would say anything to keep them coming back

Could have been big noting just to get to talk to somebody, passes the time I guess.

However, she was correct. If she was bull sh**ing the journalist may not have came back or printed anything she said. Could have been another co-incidence maybe?

Only a short time after SS went missing for CB to say she had been taken by a SK and it wasn't the first goes too far for a co-incidence for me.

Ferguson was interested and talked to David around 2005. We don't know what information he was given as David died soon after. I can remember reports saying DB refused to give any details of other woman he may have been responsible for killing unless he had a conjugal visit with CB.

This wasn't allowed, but IMO they did get some information.

 

[Innerchild]

But there are examples of potential victims that got away & there probably is more of them. Cott/Swanbourne Drive In, laneway bashing, searching for keys girl. Plus, if any others came forward to police to report attacks, particularly after any of the girls went missing, I dont think for a second that the cops would let that slip. They have footage of the missing girls we've never seen & we're not sure where police believe JR or CG were last seen exactly. These girls were murdered. Theres no way they'd be letting the media release details of any other attempts especially if the victims were able to give some kind of description. Perth media is quite happy to play by police rules for the most part, as we know.

I agree entirely re potential victims , but im happy to leave the potentials out of things , this is why i refer to my way of looking as the boring theory , some of the potential victims may well be a part of this , but i doubt they all are
I also agree with the media not being a reliable source , the same media that supplied the information re the potential victims ... anyone who has ever been involved in any major news event knows that the media do not let the truth get in the way of a good story
Im not criticizing anyone elses theories , i just prefer to work on basics , its complicated enough with them , its easy to slot things in and out to see where they fit around the basics if there seems to be a need to do so

No name has bought up the different versions of when Jane was last seen that have been reported by media. Did she walk down Bay View Tce to Stirling Hwy, and was last seen at the intersection of Loch and Stirling Hwy? Was the last sighting at the pole at 4 minutes past midnight? Was she picked up by a taxi type car while waiting at the pole?

In the flect version of the cctv, a taxi type car is seen to pull up to Jane, who stops to bend over and talk to the occupant on the passenger side. There were three patrons that tried to hail this car, but it waved them away, before stopping at Jane. The minutes time stamp on this part of the ccctv had been blurred. It could have been 00.03. or 00.08. The first report on Jane's disappearance said she went missing from outside the Continental Hotel around 10 past midnight (close to the 00.08 taxi sighting). It's hard to know if this is just a mistake made in early reporting or changed in later reports to match the story the cops wanted to get out!

So el Gordo your theory lives. SS maybe a fake taxi. Jane talked to someone in a taxi like car (with a person in it she had arranged to meet) around 3 or 8 minutes past midnight and maybe got in or walked to the end of Bayview to meet the car there.

The other point with taxi's is that Con Bayan's boot lined guy (which I suspect is the accused) was said to have done a taxi course.

This could put Lisa Brown's disappearance, and others from Highgate/Northbridge in the frame as well. Also Kerryn Tate dropped off by two taxi's and immediately a killer happens to come past to offer her a lift. Seems someone had a taxi radio or similar?

Three looking for taxi, see headlights shine on them and Jane in the background by pole, guys puts his arm out for it to stop but they get waved away and step back to pavement.

I'm adding these frame as it may be easier to see the timestamp as 00.08. Can see the long skirt of the girl back on the pavement, Jane is leaning over to talk to occupant of car.

 

[Innerchild]

Patron of Club Bay View said Jane was seen outside the club on Sunday morning. Confirmed by Paul Ferguson. Or did they get it mixed up in these early reports and she went back to Continental Hotel?

From cctv we know she came out of the Conti at 23.41.

No vision was seen again until around 23.58, 17 minutes later (or 23.53, 12 minutes later?) when Jane was standing by the pole and looking on the road for someone or something.

We were told in the voice over that Jane went to Club Bay View in those missing minutes. However the early press reports quote Ferguson saying that Jane was seen outside Club Bay View. They also say last seen outside the Conti at 12.10.

 

[El Gordo]

There is someone confirmed as getting away El Gordo - the KK victim. She certainly did not go willingly and would be classified as a blitz attack.

My guess would be that was a mixture of blitz, manipulation & at times throwing on the charm - I also believe there is a taxi element somewhere along the line.

I agree that the KK victim got away from the accused ... but I look at this as a completely different crime ... there no attempt to kill her ... the SS case is why I ruled out blitz attacks , not enough time to do it in my opinion ... and if whatever method was used with her was successful why change it

 

[meticulously]

Innerchild it looks like the person bending over is not JR , Afaik

 

[El Gordo]

I think it has been established here over the last couple of days that it would be rather easy to come with the ingredients to fake a taxi
And now thanks to DRT and Spinnaker I'm going in a completely different direction ... Airport parking... if the culprit was using a specific car to do these crimes , why not hide it at the airport ... would not be noticed , close to home

You would just have to move the car every so often , maybe put some air in the tyres , but it was a great place to store a car you wanted nobody to know about ... you wouldn't get away with this with a taxi though , it would stand out in a car park

Then again take of the light ,could be attached for quick removal , door logos may have been the removable magnetic ones if they existed at all ... personally I think the light would have been enough at night time , maybe a CB radio to look like a taxi radio

One of the problems ive had with the taxi idea is what would you do with it when not required , the airport is a possability

 

[Innerchild]

Innerchild it looks like the person bending over is not JR , Afaik

It's confusing when you invert the colours of the image metic. The girl with the arrow is not Jane. She is the girl in the long skirt who is part of the group of three that are trying to hail a cab. Jane is circled in red.

I've written that Jane is obstructed in the image, you can just see her move and bend towards the car in the video, but can't see her in this actual still frame.

I included those blurring images more for the point of looking at the time stamp to try to decide if it was 00.03 or 00.08. Three or eight minutes past midnight?

Three patrons look to hail a taxi. Yellow arrow pointing a guy with arm out. Headlight shine on them and Jane in the background circled in red. Note girl in long skirt in the group of three. Second image added for timestamp. Source:You tube Flect cctv Jane Rimmer

In this image Jane is circled in red next to pole and three patrons have moved to road to get in taxi. ONe of them is bending over in this image I think. They move back to the footpath where the girl in the long skirt is pointed out in the yellow arrow.