Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[poppypopcorn]

Is it said that most liars tend to go into extreme detail while telling a lie? It’s the mention of man in uniform gold stripes hat that gets me… I mean is any person who works wearing a uniform like that going to move boxes dressed in it lol… a lot sound ridiculous. Meeting in 60’s randomly applying to an ad and it happens to be Marions?? Then runs an ad himself with a different name and Marion randomly replies? IMO it’s to establish they knew each other’s for years and years.. rather than perhaps not so long at all. Would love someone to confirm if Marion was in Switzerland we know Europe for warren’s training but was it Switzerland?

Totally agree. I know a guy who is a long haul pilot for a major airline and the first thing he does when he lands is changes into his "civvies". He's not driving round picking up boxes in his uniform. I agree with others that this guy has clearly listened to the podcast right from the start and has constructed his evidence to fit in with that narrative and try to implicate someone else. As far as I remember the pilot had been traced and spoken to - didn't want to appear on the podcast - but certainly ruled out any relationship between himself an Marion.

 

[vivienbee]

If it was her who came back, maybe she got suspicious of something, came back earlier than the other person planned and tried to get all her money out of the bank, because she'd grown suspicious of the other person and realised that somehow they might be able to access her money, having stolen all her ID etc.
And then something happened to her here, in Australia before she had a chance to get the police involved or had a chance to contact family.

The difference between the latest case we've heard from and Marion's that intrigues me the most is the selling of the houses. In both cases, obtaining the property or money from the sale seems to be a huge part of the scam, but with PO she was hesitant about selling and therefore had not done so prior to their trip to England. This led to him suggesting the whole power of attorney situation, stealing the deeds, and abandoning her in Europe (only to have to give the deeds back and steal them again). I think, had she not realised something was wrong and returned so soon afterwards, he would have tried to sell the deed to her house whilst she was away.

With Marion, however, things played out differently. We know she had already sold the house (potentially at his suggestion) meaning that the money was already in the bank. Following the logic of the above case, why then go overseas? Did he PLAN to do something criminal to her and therefore hope to buy some time with the family regarding her absence? Marion already had a strained relationship with her family, so (my speculation) it probably wouldn't have been too hard for a pro of this kind to create estrangement between them instead if that was his sole intention.
I think it's more likely that the trip overseas served another purpose. Marion had told her family that she was going to England for an extended period, one far longer than the time she in actual fact spent there. This leads me to believe that he intended for her to stay there for a while, come back, and try to do something with her funds either solo or with an accomplice.
The fact that Marion then returned only a few days later suggests to me that she knew something was wrong and followed to check up on things/protect her assets. Whether she withdrew the money herself knowing he could access it, was somehow convinced by him to do so, or someone else impersonating her (less likely imo) withdrew the funds is up in the air.
What happened to her after this is anyone's guess, but I think something went wrong with his plan, just as it did with PO in a different way.

(No idea if this makes any sense. My thoughts are so scattered with this case right now because the possibilities, whilst now somewhat more concrete, have actually become even greater.)

 

[KeenSleuth17]

I think it’s actually good he “remembers” many details including the “pilot” one, I feel it will make it a lot harder for him to backtrack in the future and play the dementia card.

I really can’t wait til they examine his evidence. I just can’t imagine, even though he’s veeeerrryyyy good at what he does, that he will possibly be able to keep up with all of his own lies interwoven in the victim’s plus ex-wife’s statements. It’s going to be a real popcorn show.

 

[FullMinder]

Between this and other historical cases in the news so much seems to depend in NSW on if you get a lazy and/or incompetent cop on the initial investigation.

Don't go missing in NSW is the moral of the story for me. No one will care but the coroner.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I agree with earlier member who mentioned TINDLER SWINDLER on Netflix. It's a must see for anyone interested in how these love cons work. In fact, having watching it, the Marion case seems textbook to me.

The love con creates chaos (ie lots of travel); presents himself as busy businessman in potentially dangerous or volatile field (ie coins); charms vulnerable women; weans them from family and friends via intrigue and danger; leaves no paper (or criminal!) trail since women hand over everything willingly because of the stories set up by the conman. The love con doesn't need blackmail. They groom their victims to believe in love and partnership.

And most shocking, these guys juggle multiple women at once. They can travel first class on one woman's money while seducing another. I believe absolutely Marion came back to Australia to hand over her money, and the con went south, ending in her death.
The TINDER SWINDLER is alive, well, and still preying on women even though a documentary has been made about him.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

In interview with Sallie on the recent podcast episode, she brought up an interesting point I hadn't considered: how many Australians do not know the story of Marion Barter. Sallie's recent campaign to use old school media-- newspaper, billboards, flyers-- may flush out other victims of RB.

I really believe the time is now.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I was a bit confused over the JO situation - the lawyers ask her if was actually a POA and not a will that she signed - she didn't seem to know - do you think they may have evidence that it was a will. ? If so to claim he would need the death certificate, so murder without a body wouldn't be an option but to claim she would have to die.

I don't think Marion would have excluded her children in a will, therefore liquidating her assets was a better option - but do you think he changed tack was that all to hard ? because at some stage he would have known that the family ( sally and her GF) had contacted the police and they knew about the money because they either contacted Marion or her imposter to verify her identity. Was that all to much of a close call for him ?

sorry random thoughts

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Upon more thought, I am really starting to suspect he DID have a female accomplice.

Storing suitcases
RB made JO do it in Amsterdam and Marion did it in Heathrow.

In the past we discussed the possibility of Marion being used as a mule, but making her leave her bags behind for an accomplice to use is very feasible.

We know RB made JO keep her summer clothes in it (it was winter in Europe and summer in Aus), he made her use a bag he provided, and he placed a bag of his own in it. Perhaps this contained money, fake IDs, valuables, instructions, house keys?

The blonde connection
We've discussed this before... when FNMR ad was published on 10 Dec 1994, there was another ad by a women, which seemed odd because she was in France posting in an Aus paper: "French, 50 years old, blonde, blue eyed, 1.52m, slim, youthful looking, love healthy and simple life, seek sober man speaking French or having French interests. Write to Marie Llimos, 221 Fontaines Ave, Wallace-St-Pierre, 84500."

In addition, after the last podcast before inquest began, we discussed the possible sighting of a man and blonde woman Marion MIGHT have been seen with in England. As well as a postcard revealing Marion made a friend called Maz. We discussed the potential of all these things being connected. To add to this theory, RB suggested JO go blonde for her new passport photo.

Rencontres in Le Courier Australien
While going though all the rencontres, I noticed they sometimes come in twos, one from a man and one from a woman. Could this have been a way for the accomplices with no fixed addresses or mobile phones to communicate? To let each other know where they were and how to contact each other?

Fax machine
Both victims/witnesses said RB immediately bought a fax machine. What was he using this for? His fraud activities? Communicating with an accomplice?

I don't know. I could be WAY off. It's just the theory I am entertaining right now. At the very least, I feel he was leaving suitcases behind for someone else to pick up and use.

So who is this potential blonde who travelled extensively and also had multiple aliases? Was she also scamming or was she a victim he manipulated and dragged along everywhere (like in The Puppet Master)?

It will be very interesting to hear and see DdH at the inquest.

 

[Meligator]

The truth is that RB may not even actually know what ultimately happened to Marion. He may have just left her penniless someplace.

 

[KiwiNZ]

was it just his bad luck that both Marion and JO returned from the UK with in days after he left them there. Did they both through a spanner in his plans ?

 

[KiwiNZ]

The truth is that RB may not even actually know what ultimately happened to Marion. He may have just left her penniless someplace.

if that was the case he would be better off telling the whole story, because right now it looks like he murdered her with his current story been full of holes and witnesses with similar stories that make it obvious that the last time he saw her was not in May of 1997 as he claims.

He's 80, lets hope that at this end of his life he comes clean and does the right thing for once in his sorry life.

Having no idea about his family situation, I would hope if his children have any type of relationship with him they implore him to do the right thing, he has obviously spent his life spreading misery and hardship to others, enough is enough.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Can anyone remember how we established that Marion left her bags at a airport lock up ? I know we discussed it, but did we ever have any proof ?

Just seems strange that we talked about this but I don't remember how this came about, was it just a good guess on our/ someone's part ??

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Spontaneous random thought. Maybe RB's photo should be on the billboards, in the paper and circulated at the arts centre and RSL at Southport. The face doesn't change, but in this case the name certainly does. End of spontaneous random thought.

 

[caitlincurious]

Curious why Blum thought that saying they'd originally met in 1960s was a good idea (I think most agree it's garbage)?

Some of the most random, crazy things to happen in history are the real ones. Some stuff can't be made up... But either
1. RB is telling the truth. He did meet Marion in Switzerland and they had a brief affair before randomly meeting again later in life. Weirder things have happened, I guess. OR
2. RB lied thinks that by alleging Marion cheated on Johnny Warren with him in Switzerland he can contribute to an apparent pattern of behaviour that makes Marion appear a naive, love-drunk woman whose missteps are those of an adulteress
3. And/or, RB lied and thinks if he can point to a previous relationship with Marion he can provide context for the later (apparent) relationship without the second relationship appearing a complete con (Which it probably was)

 

[Willowpea]

Upon more thought, I am really starting to suspect he DID have a female accomplice.

Storing suitcases
RB made JO do it in Amsterdam and Marion did it in Heathrow.

In the past we discussed the possibility of Marion being used as a mule, but making her leave her bags behind for an accomplice to use is very feasible.

We know RB made JO keep her summer clothes in it (it was winter in Europe and summer in Aus), he made her use a bag he provided, and he placed a bag of his own in it. Perhaps this contained money, fake IDs, valuables, instructions, house keys?

The blonde connection
We've discussed this before... when FNMR ad was published on 10 Dec 1994, there was another ad by a women, which seemed odd because she was in France posting in an Aus paper: "French, 50 years old, blonde, blue eyed, 1.52m, slim, youthful looking, love healthy and simple life, seek sober man speaking French or having French interests. Write to Marie Llimos, 221 Fontaines Ave, Wallace-St-Pierre, 84500."

In addition, after the last podcast before inquest began, we discussed the possible sighting of a man and blonde woman Marion MIGHT have been seen with in England. As well as a postcard revealing Marion made a friend called Maz. We discussed the potential of all these things being connected. To add to this theory, RB suggested JO go blonde for her new passport photo.

Rencontres in Le Courier Australien
While going though all the rencontres, I noticed they sometimes come in twos, one from a man and one from a woman. Could this have been a way for the accomplices with no fixed addresses or mobile phones to communicate? To let each other know where they were and how to contact each other?

Fax machine
Both victims/witnesses said RB immediately bought a fax machine. What was he using this for? His fraud activities? Communicating with an accomplice?

I don't know. I could be WAY off. It's just the theory I am entertaining right now. At the very least, I feel he was leaving suitcases behind for someone else to pick up and use.

So who is this potential blonde who travelled extensively and also had multiple aliases? Was she also scamming or was she a victim he manipulated and dragged along everywhere (like in The Puppet Master)?

It will be very interesting to hear and see DdH at the inquest.

I had to log back in just to like this comment. This is a great theory.

 

[caitlincurious]

Is it said that most liars tend to go into extreme detail while telling a lie? It’s the mention of man in uniform gold stripes hat that gets me… I mean is any person who works wearing a uniform like that going to move boxes dressed in it lol… a lot sound ridiculous. Meeting in 60’s randomly applying to an ad and it happens to be Marions?? Then runs an ad himself with a different name and Marion randomly replies? IMO it’s to establish they knew each other’s for years and years.. rather than perhaps not so long at all. Would love someone to confirm if Marion was in Switzerland we know Europe for warren’s training but was it Switzerland?

Not just this. According to my notes from the inquest day 1:

Mr Blun said he had a 2nd relationship with marion in 1995 or 1996 when he answered a personal ad in a newspaper (maybe Gold coast bulletin). Answered under the name of Rick. He did not know it was posted by Marion.

So RB admits he put the ad in le Courrier Australien and that he knew Marion, but not that she responded to the ad, as far as I can tell from the lawyer's summary of his statement. He alleges MARION posted an ad in the 1990s to which HE responded (in the Gold Coast Bulletin). I don't really know where the FR ad fits into that.

In the inquest it was also confirmed that Marion WAS overseas in the late 1960s according to Board of Studies records, but it is not specified where.

Listen at timestamp 4:10:45 of inquest day 1

 

[MrsWattle]

Spontaneous random thought. Maybe RB's photo should be on the billboards, in the paper and circulated at the arts centre and RSL at Southport. The face doesn't change, but in this case the name certainly does. End of spontaneous random thought.

His names should be up in lights, flashing, His photos need to be in every corner. Police and Media need to step up now. The other victims might not even be alive.

 

[caitlincurious]

I agree. I think at the time a lot of us agreed that doorstepping an elderly man in his own home and practically accusing him of murder was a but much.

He maybe did know Ric Blum, or whatever he was calling himself at the time. When the fraudster placed the ads he was in his 50s. If you've moved around a lot like he did you are going to have met a LOT of people over those 50 years. Just because a fraudster has picked the name of someone he once worked with, or his brother's mate, or a man in the next village does not implicate that person!

The Luxembourg Ramekel is a victim of identity theft. Nothing more than that.

Just to be clear, I don't disagree with this! (See my comment after Toosie's). All I was saying is that his reaction didn't make it easy, from the podcast listener's perspective anyway, to believe he had nothing to do with it. And he was totally entitled to that reaction. It was just unfortunate that as a listener we were 100% led to believe that the man they were interviewing was the same FR; that's why he deserves an apology. I repeat: the real FR is a victim here.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Not just this. According to my notes from the inquest day 1:

Mr Blun said he had a 2nd relationship with marion in 1995 or 1996 when he answered a personal ad in a newspaper (maybe Gold coast bulletin). Answered under the name of Rick. He did not know it was posted by Marion.

So RB admits he put the ad in le Courrier Australien and that he knew Marion, but not that she responded to the ad, as far as I can tell from the lawyer's summary of his statement. He alleges MARION posted an ad in the 1990s to which HE responded (in the Gold Coast Bulletin). I don't really know where the FR ad fits into that.

In the inquest it was also confirmed that Marion WAS overseas in the late 1960s according to Board of Studies records, but it is not specified where.

Listen at timestamp 4:10:45 of inquest day 1

Yes, Marion was in Europe. Here is what we know of her previous travel:

19 August 1968
Travelled to London then Manchester with Johnny Warren about 6 months after marrying.

1985
Travelled to Europe on honeymoon with Ray Barter.

December 1995
Travelled to Norfolk Island with Gregory Edwards, partner and TSS groundskeeper.

Mid 1996 Applied for a passport under name of Marion Barter. Did not travel on this passport and it is unknown why she applied for it.

16 May 1997
Passport application with new name Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel.

These are confirmed by Aus passenger cards and newspaper clippings. Switzerland has never been mentioned but could be true.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I didn't find him suspicious at all.
I found him actually quite civil. I doubt that I would have kept my cool if it was me.

He didn't owe it to anyone to provide information.

I agree Tootsie, I thought he was very civil too. It all went pear-shaped at the front door of his home in Luxembourg when Sally said "So, I have - I found an ad that you put in the newspaper in Australia in northern NSW back in 1994 and I'm just wondering if you can tell me how long you were in Australia." They made a huge mistake with FR and they need to own it and make amends, and not just dismiss it with "ah well, it wasn't him." What happened to him was shocking. MOO

• "Politeness and respect hierarchy is very important in Luxembourg; never be disrespectful or rude, or you will lose all possible chances of succeeding in your business dealings."