Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[centred]

I dont think they were on any ship together in 1970 or 1971.

Yes it is possible he met D while in Australia after arriving with Ilona in 1970 and either working or brunching in her parents cafe .....and perhaps she was writing to him but possibly not knowing he was incarcerated during that time , returned and married her eventually . I don't know why they lied about it but i am guessing they think they have a good reason to cover something.

It does seem like Ilona wanted to go back to the UK and he went , also ticked divorced on his card on exit from memory ?

 

[Meligator]

Ilona married in May 1969 and gave birth 8 months later. Either conception was immediate and delivery somewhat premature, or she was pregnant when she married. Perhaps she saw an advantage in being married from the start of her new life. MJR could have been a pre-existing attachment who was not ready to marry her, and marrying someone else plus emigrating was the eventually successful ultimatum.

Her application to come to Australia is began in 68, so the pregnancy and coming to AU are likely unrelated to one another. It is interesting that the Renov Pubs company is registered in ‘68 using an address that IK also included on her paperwork to come to AU (46 rue de Francs). Not sure the significance, but interesting nonetheless. I feel confident WW was conning her in some way, but not clear his plan aside from establishing residency in AU.

 

[bettyboop]

Can someone tell me if LL was a long term friend of Marion and did Sally
know her and are there any pictures of her or was she at the inquest.I don't know why , but I'm a little suspicious of her. JMO MOO

 

[LEO123]

Can someone tell me if LL was a long term friend of Marion and did Sally
know her and are there any pictures of her or was she at the inquest.I don't know why , but I'm a little suspicious of her. JMO MOO[/QUOTE

She was her next door neighbour in Southport. I would have to check on the exact year Marion moved in there. They seemed like good friends

 

[KiwiNZ]

d

 

[KiwiNZ]

Can someone tell me if LL was a long term friend of Marion and did Sally
know her and are there any pictures of her or was she at the inquest.I don't know why , but I'm a little suspicious of her. JMO MOO

yes she was a long time friend, she was on facebook, not sure if she still is

 

[KiwiNZ]

Also I was under the impression MB flew to Japan as well and that is why i thought they had a quickie "fake " ? wedding and "free honeymoon " before flying to this new life and buying the dream overseas ...

Her departure card said Korea as her destination, we have spent years trying to figure out how she got to Japan, or if she even went ( only because of the Hotel letterhead ), was it a lie ? or a mistake not sure, but TLV podcast have confirmed she flew to Japan

 

[JLZ]

Her application to come to Australia is began in 68, so the pregnancy and coming to AU are likely unrelated to one another. It is interesting that the Renov Pubs company is registered in ‘68 using an address that IK also included on her paperwork to come to AU (46 rue de Francs). Not sure the significance, but interesting nonetheless. I feel confident WW was conning her in some way, but not clear his plan aside from establishing residency in AU.

I'm not suggesting she discovered she was pregnant and arranged emigration within weeks. Mishy argued Ilona had nothing to gain from marrying WW and I I'm saying that possibly she did, in May 1969. Think of her arriving in Australia alone and pregnant, shortly to become a single mother, when single mothers were treated harshly even to the point of hospitals stealing their newborns.

The correspondence with the Renov Pubs address does indicate that she'd known WW for some time, doesn't it. It hardly seems likely at this point that anybody knew him without being conned in some way.

 

[LEO123]

Her departure card said Korea as her destination, we have spent years trying to figure out how she got to Japan, or if she even went ( only because of the Hotel letterhead ), was it a lie ? or a mistake not sure, but TLV podcast have confirmed she flew to Japan

I was just thinking about this. Why did AC ask Sally in the first or second day of the Inquest if her mother had an interest in Korean food, restaurants or Korean culture? Her response was No to all. Have I missed something?

 

[Estelle]

I was just thinking about this. Why did AC ask Sally in the first or second day of the Inquest if her mother had an interest in Korean food, restaurants or Korean culture? Her response was No to all. Have I missed something?

Yes that's correct. Few women in Australia in 1997 had any interest in going to South Korea in 1997 but they would've been interested in going to Japan.

All I can think of was that an intentional (advised by RB) or accidental mistake. Was the flight no correct? Did that flight go to Seoul? The don't check that card at the time and RB would have known that. But if she did fly Korean Airlines, it would have been Seoul first. Otherwise, you would fly directly to Japan from Brisbane.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I was just thinking about this. Why did AC ask Sally in the first or second day of the Inquest if her mother had an interest in Korean food, restaurants or Korean culture? Her response was No to all. Have I missed something?

I think I remember in RB's statement he said MB liked Korean food, I think he is just trying to confuse things because he has been following the cases and knows her departure card had Korea on not Japan, mind games

 

[centred]

I think I remember in RB's statement he said MB liked Korean food, I think he is just trying to confuse things because he has been following the cases and knows her departure card had Korea on not Japan, mind games

And WHAT was the reason RB stopped using Japan airlines after this trip ?

 

[caitlincurious]

And WHAT was the reason RB stopped using Japan airlines after this trip ?

Trying not to leave any further trace that he had ever done so using a certain passport?

 

[mishy66]

Ilona married in May 1969 and gave birth 8 months later. Either conception was immediate and delivery somewhat premature, or she was pregnant when she married. Perhaps she saw an advantage in being married from the start of her new life. MJR could have been a pre-existing attachment who was not ready to marry her, and marrying someone else plus emigrating was the eventually successful ultimatum.

That is what I said in my post previous to the one you tagged me on....
Suggesting she was already pregnant....
......"WW uses IK to gain Aust residency obviously. He swoons her with a new life in Aust.
She is already pregnant when they arrive as her first child is born 9 mths after arrival."

 

[Estelle]

I'm not suggesting she discovered she was pregnant and arranged emigration within weeks. Mishy argued Ilona had nothing to gain from marrying WW and I I'm saying that possibly she did, in May 1969. Think of her arriving in Australia alone and pregnant, shortly to become a single mother, when single mothers were treated harshly even to the point of hospitals stealing their newborns.

The correspondence with the Renov Pubs address does indicate that she'd known WW for some time, doesn't it. It hardly seems likely at this point that anybody knew him without being conned in some way.

I have combined Mishy's idea with mine. What do you think? It's a little long-winded but it's just how I put my thoughts together today so it needs editing.

1968 - IK and WW are allegedly married in Belgium.

1968 – a business is formed between Frederick de Hedervary, Willy David-coppenolle, Ric Blum

24 May 1969 – WW flies London to Perth on 3 month holiday visa, claims Never Married giving his address as 6 Gosbell St, Paddington possibly the address of one of IK's friends with whom they could have shared an apartment.

Does WW then fly to Sydney?

26 May 1969 – WW applies for Aus residence, now claims he is married, 10 May 1968 in Belgium to wife IK

May 1969? IW becomes pregnant immediately WW arrives. IW and WW both need to earn money so they get a hospitality job for cash in a cafe which is owned by DdH’s parents. DdH is 18yo, a Secretary and the daughter of the owners who later meets them and they all get along well.

2 Oct 1969 – WW granted residence status due to marriage status to IK claiming they were married in 1968 in Belgium

Jan 1970 ER born to IW and WW. The Wouters & DdH exchange addresses and say they will write while they are away. WW hopes to get work there again when he returns. When WW is imprisoned, DdH and WW keep writing to each other as he needs a job on his return. I doubt that DdH and WW had a relationship in Australia or were in love earlier but maybe IW did not want anything more to do with WW/MJR after he went to prison so he worked on DdH as he knew her parents were wealthy.

15 Feb 1970 – WW, IW, baby, depart AU for Belgium. WW claims they are now divorced.

1970 – Soon after they arrive in Belgium to live with IW's parents, IW marries MJReid (WW) legally or illegally. WW has changed his name first as he "lost" his passport. He tells IW that he would prefer an English sounding name. How could WW and IW have become divorced in that short time? IMO MJReid is another alias of RB as he needs to wipe out WW criminal records. Maybe IW possibly wants to be married legally as she now has his child. She still has Australian resident status for him in his new name. She was IK on previous alleged marriage certificate so maybe not traced. MJReid is now an Australian resident by marriage again enabling RB to return to Australia when he wishes on a new passport. However, a year later, RB is arrested so IW doesn't want any more to do with him. So when he arrives in prison, he decides to continue writing to DdH and her family as he would like to work there again when he returns to Australia. He knows DdH's family is wealthy so he starts to woo her by mail from the prison. She uses a PO Box No so her parents won't find out that he is in prison.

23 Jun 1971 – WW in French prison for a long list of charges

18 Aug 1972 Marriage of Monique to Fernand Remakel

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison

1974 to 1975 – WW suspected return to Aus but no entry record found. MJReid returns to Sydney and works at the cafe again for cash as WW as they don't know about the Michael Reid name. His goal is to marry DdH as her parents are older and she will inherit everything. They decide they don't like the WW name so he changes it to his "family name" by Deed Poll from MJReid. DdH doesn't know about this name. He wouldn't have used Willy Wouters because he did not want there to be any connection to it. So then everyone calls him "Ric" as "Fred is a frog in Australia".

12 Feb 1976 – MJReid changes name to FDdH

20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DdH at Wayside Chapel.

23 Feb 1976 – FDdH applies for AU citizenship

25 Mar 1976 – FDdH AU citizenship granted and AU passport issued.

 

[mishy66]

Went down a bit of a rabbit hole searching for "Chusan". I don't think it relates to anything but here is what came up:-

Found a stock photograph of a motor boat named "Chusan" with port of registry BieuLieu, UK.

Then found a 7.6 motor boat was registered in the UK Waterways - MedWay Rivers. MedWay is the area around Kent, UK.

And this:

Welcome to the Boat Listing section of Canalplan AC. From this page you can search the details of over 100,000 boats registered on the Inland Waterways of England and Wales

Note: The details of individual boats have been taken from files kindly supplied by the navigation authorities so will reflect their records. If you find a record is not correct please check with the navigation authority to ensure that their records are updated but note that this listing is only updated once each year so many updates will not be reflected in this listing until the following year.

There is 1 record that matches your query

Chusan Built by Unknown in 1964 - Length : 7.6 metres ( 24 feet 11 inches ). Hull colour : White , Superstructure colour : White
Powered by an Inboard Petrol engine with a capacity of 1600 CC. Registered with Environment Authority - Southern Region number M20380 as a Seamaster Powered Motor Boat. ( Last updated on Friday 27th April 2007 )

And then:-

Cooling Castle, Kent UK
The moat is still flooded on three sides and has ducks and aquatic vegetation with another stream or ditch lined with weeping willows. The rectangular enclosure of the inner moat is of main grass with a fine central deodar cedar (50-60 feet tall) and chusan palms (Trachy corpus). Other fine trees as specimens noted include robinia, aesculus and beech. Climbers and shrubs decorate the walls. There is a small kitchen garden to the east.

Cooling Castle - Cooling - Parks & Gardens (parksandgardens.org)

The only thing that sparked my interest really was the boats name 'Chusan' and that it had been previously been registered to waterways around Kent, UK (possible areas of interest)

I could be just super tired and all the info is getting muddled in my brain or has no relevance and simply coincidence. Let me know your thoughts!

@Pineconemind this is VERY interesting!

I think you are onto something with this.

 

[JLZ]

If DdeH wrote to WW/FdeH in prison I think that would have been after their marriage since he was sentenced to one year in June 1976 (but departed Australia July 1976 so ???) and to three years in March 1978.

 

[mishy66]

Can anyone remember D parents christian names.. ?

Peggy and Gordon

 

[BonnieB]

I have combined Mishy's idea with mine. What do you think? It's a little long-winded but it's just how I put my thoughts together today so it needs editing.

1968 - IK and WW are allegedly married in Belgium.

1968 – a business is formed between Frederick de Hedervary, Willy David-coppenolle, Ric Blum

24 May 1969 – WW flies London to Perth on 3 month holiday visa, claims Never Married giving his address as 6 Gosbell St, Paddington possibly the address of one of IK's friends with whom they could have shared an apartment.

Does WW then fly to Sydney?

26 May 1969 – WW applies for Aus residence, now claims he is married, 10 May 1968 in Belgium to wife IK

May 1969? IW becomes pregnant immediately WW arrives. IW and WW both need to earn money so they get a hospitality job for cash in a cafe which is owned by DdH’s parents. DdH is 18yo, a Secretary and the daughter of the owners who later meets them and they all get along well.

2 Oct 1969 – WW granted residence status due to marriage status to IK claiming they were married in 1968 in Belgium

Jan 1970 ER born to IW and WW. The Wouters & DdH exchange addresses and say they will write while they are away. WW hopes to get work there again when he returns. When WW is imprisoned, DdH and WW keep writing to each other as he needs a job on his return. I doubt that DdH and WW had a relationship in Australia or were in love earlier but maybe IW did not want anything more to do with WW/MJR after he went to prison so he worked on DdH as he knew her parents were wealthy.

15 Feb 1970 – WW, IW, baby, depart AU for Belgium. WW claims they are now divorced.

1970 – Soon after they arrive in Belgium to live with IW's parents, IW marries MJReid (WW) legally or illegally. WW has changed his name first as he "lost" his passport. He tells IW that he would prefer an English sounding name. How could WW and IW have become divorced in that short time? IMO MJReid is another alias of RB as he needs to wipe out WW criminal records. Maybe IW possibly wants to be married legally as she now has his child. She still has Australian resident status for him in his new name. She was IK on previous alleged marriage certificate so maybe not traced. MJReid is now an Australian resident by marriage again enabling RB to return to Australia when he wishes on a new passport. However, a year later, RB is arrested so IW doesn't want any more to do with him. So when he arrives in prison, he decides to continue writing to DdH and her family as he would like to work there again when he returns to Australia. He knows DdH's family is wealthy so he starts to woo her by mail from the prison. She uses a PO Box No so her parents won't find out that he is in prison.

23 Jun 1971 – WW in French prison for a long list of charges

18 Aug 1972 Marriage of Monique to Fernand Remakel

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison

1974 to 1975 – WW suspected return to Aus but no entry record found. MJReid returns to Sydney and works at the cafe again for cash as WW as they don't know about the Michael Reid name. His goal is to marry DdH as her parents are older and she will inherit everything. They decide they don't like the WW name so he changes it to his "family name" by Deed Poll from MJReid. DdH doesn't know about this name. He wouldn't have used Willy Wouters because he did not want there to be any connection to it. So then everyone calls him "Ric" as "Fred is a frog in Australia".

12 Feb 1976 – MJReid changes name to FDdH

20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DdH at Wayside Chapel.

23 Feb 1976 – FDdH applies for AU citizenship

25 Mar 1976 – FDdH AU citizenship granted and AU passport issued.

How could RB legally change his name PRIOR to being an Australian citizen? I think I recall him mumbling something about "a lawyer did it for me" during questioning. More like forgery IMO

 

[mishy66]

I like the theory of it not being RB as the first Willy Wouters entering Australia in 1969 because IMO the handwriting looks different on subsequent documents!

Given the fact that there is evidence of various aliases ,including RB, attached to a company prior, in 1968, before he arrives in Aust and that he has not, by his own admission talked to his brother in over 30 yrs, ( yet both RB and DdeH say he stays with his family and 'cousins' while OS_ ......... I am convinced that his charades started in his time after getting injured in the war ( if he is to believed) and that his newly found fame started with one of the soldiers he fought along side who died OR possibly it was one of the Wouters brothers he fought along side with... ( I think this as he seems very connected to their ancestral coin collection ... imo