Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[Dotta]

Saudi female citizens were only allowed to leave Saudi and have foreign travel without a male guardian approval as of August 2019.

So they must have left Saudi after this date.

Because being caught trying to leave Saudi with fake documents would have meant prison, or corporal punishment, or both.

And the shame of being caught would have meant even more strife with their family, possibly death.

MOO.

Saudi Arabia allows women to travel without male guardian's approval

Women will also be able to apply for passports and register a marriage, divorce or birth

www.theguardian.com

They fled in 2017 (DM report).

 

[annpats]

They fled in 2017 (DM report).

I stand corrected, I just read that myself.

I wonder how they managed to leave Saudi with a male family member's authority?

Perhaps they said it was some sort of study trip?

I also wonder if there was a 2nd or 3rd country they went to before they got to Australia?

 

[Dotta]

I also wonder if there was a 2nd or 3rd country they went to before they got to Australia?

Via Turkey?

 

[kittythehare]

I wonder whether they were in touch with any SA ex pat groups?
Sometimes women escape but they need a very strong network subsequently.
It is possible they knew nothing about cooking and were surviving on the energy drinks.
I am curious about the contents of their fridge..
It"s very very sad if they had no competent support.

 

[annpats]

I wonder whether they were in touch with any SA ex pat groups?

I'm sure these exist. I also imagine it would be hard to know who to trust and wonder if any of them are double-agents, reporting back and grassing them and their whereabouts in to their families and the religious police and the authorities back in Saudi.

Such a difficult, terrifying life. And I don't think the terror would ever stop. You'd always be looking over your shoulder.

Perhaps that terror is what sent these 2 young sisters into potential (real or imagined) paranoia...?

MOO.

 

[Dotta]

I wonder what kind of mail they were receiving, that piled up.

Ads, bills, legal documents?

 

[kittythehare]

I'm sure these exist. I also imagine it would be hard to know who to trust and wonder if any of them are double-agents, reporting back and grassing them and their whereabouts in to their families and the religious police and the authorities back in Saudi.

Such a difficult, terrifying life. And I don't think the terror would ever stop. You'd always be looking over your shoulder.

Perhaps that terror is what sent these 2 young sisters into potential (real or imagined) paranoia...?

MOO.

That is exactly what I'm thinking too!

 

[branmuffin]

Honor killings are usually staged to look like suicide or an accident. Will be interesting to find out what the autopsies reveal about cause of death. Another possibility, they got Covid-19 and died from that. If it was an honor killing, then it becomes much more complicated as the killer would have probably flown into and out of the country.

I think I have to disagree with you regarding the comment that honour killings are staged as accidents or suicide. When societies that are so restrictive regarding the roles of women and girls it isn't necessary for the deaths to be presented as accidents or suicides. It is understood and acknowledged that the women have somehow shamed the family whether it's because they had an affair with someone of a different faith, whether their dowry was not sufficient so shamed the groom's family or any one of numerous reasons why women are murdered under the auspices of family honour, faith or just the fact they are viewed as property to do with as they see fit. Even when murders occur in countries where honour killings are an unusual event it is very difficult to find someone who will cave and report the death as a murder. We've had honour killings in Canada relating to Indian and Muslim culture but it's taken years to prosecute. IMO

 

[branmuffin]

Just thought I'd supply this link regarding honour killings in cultures where it is an accepted method of restoring honour to a family who think they have been minimized by a woman's behavior. It isn't just men who are all in with this type of punishment; mothers and sisters have been complicit in murders of their children and siblings. It's hard to fathom and I hope that eventually the practice diminishes but I think there will be many victims until then.

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"

Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor."

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[kittythehare]

The women were employed for five years in a refugee service that helped foreign nationals escape persecution and seek asylum.

The Newstimesuk Australia may also reveal that the older sister took an AVO in January 2019 against a 28-year-old man.

AVO was later withdrawn and dismissed.

In another court case, the owner of their Canterbury unit filed a civil lawsuit against the 23-year-old on May 13 this year.

Landlords can issue a legal warning notice through the civil court for additional rent before taking the next step to remove tenants from the property.

What Happened In UK - Read In A Second In NewsTimesUK

Read In A Second In NewsTimesUK

newstimesuk.com

 

[Dotta]

The women were employed for five years in a refugee service that helped foreign nationals escape persecution and seek asylum.

The Newstimesuk Australia may also reveal that the older sister took an AVO in January 2019 against a 28-year-old man.

AVO was later withdrawn and dismissed.

In another court case, the owner of their Canterbury unit filed a civil lawsuit against the 23-year-old on May 13 this year.

Landlords can issue a legal warning notice through the civil court for additional rent before taking the next step to remove tenants from the property.

What Happened In UK - Read In A Second In NewsTimesUK

Read In A Second In NewsTimesUK

newstimesuk.com

So, nothing new.

Also, I don't think they worked for refugee centre, but were given help there as refugees themselves.
MOO

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

Honor killings are usually staged to look like suicide or an accident. Will be interesting to find out what the autopsies reveal about cause of death. Another possibility, they got Covid-19 and died from that. If it was an honor killing, then it becomes much more complicated as the killer would have probably flown into and out of the country.

I am certainly interested in this theory also... what few facts that have been reported, if accurate, are leading me in that direction... IMO, YMMV

 

[Dotta]

But is it really possible, that somebody from the family could kill them after 5 years???

I'm not really convinced.

Besides, it seems to me, the family did not know about their location.

I am rather inclined to think, the sisters had some trouble with the locals (mysterious man).
Or it was an accident, like food/allegry poisoning or other.

MOO

 

[annpats]

But is it really possible, that somebody from the family could kill them after 5 years???

Yes.

Because:

A) It could have taken their family 5 years to find them.

B) These honour killing families hold grudges forever. They don't forgive or forget. If it takes 5 years, or 10, or 20, so be it.

 

[Dotta]

Yes.

Because:

A) It could have taken their family 5 years to find them.

B) These honour killing families hold grudges forever. They don't forgive or forget. If it takes 5 years, or 10, or 20, so be it.

OMG
It simply boggles my mind.
I cannot imagine that a family member would murder the girls

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

OMG
It simply boggles my mind.
I cannot imagine that a family member would murder the girls

I say this totally in jest and with affection... are you new here? (ETA: I know you are not, just lightening the mood...)

Sadly, we read of so many interfamilail killings...

 

[Laughing]

Yes.

Because:

A) It could have taken their family 5 years to find them.

B) These honour killing families hold grudges forever. They don't forgive or forget. If it takes 5 years, or 10, or 20, so be it.

5 years to find them, and fund a person willing & able to travel to Australia to carry out the honor killing.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Dotta]

I say this totally in jest and with affection... are you new here? (ETA: I know you are not, just lightening the mood...)

Sadly, we read of so many interfamilail killings...

I meant murder for religious reason.
It never happens where I live.
It feels abstract to me.
Incomprehensible.

Besides, if it really concerns family, I think the sisters committed suicide, fearing going back.

I doubt family killed them.

And that is my opinion.

 

[whiterhino]

Does anyone know how the sisters were supporting themselves? It's mentioned that they received support from a refugee service or possibly worked there. If they'd been employed, why were they behind on rent? If they had a vehicle, why not sell it to cover expenses? (I'm oversimplifying but just saying, they had options).

Surely social services would have helped guide them with regards to landlord/tenant issues, rental agreements, accessing shelter space etc?

Even if the one sister withdrew the AVO, it means: They were fearful of their safety (to the degree that LE/court saw fit to issue an order), they (at least one sister) were informed and assertive enough at one point to file for a protective order and LE would have been somewhat familiar with the sisters due to the AVO.

Wondering: Did the sisters have a difference of opinion over how things should be handled? Could there have been a third party, perhaps whoever the AVO was for or whoever damaged the car?

 

[branmuffin]

But is it really possible, that somebody from the family could kill them after 5 years???

I'm not really convinced.

Besides, it seems to me, the family did not know about their location.

I am rather inclined to think, the sisters had some trouble with the locals (mysterious man).
Or it was an accident, like food/allegry poisoning or other.

MOO

Oh, you'd be surprised at how long the festering of perceived dishonour can motivate someone to murder. In the killer's eyes, every time they'd go to the village. gurdwara or the mosque they would be viewed as incapable of controlling their wives or their female children. It's tantamount to walking around with a big red A emblazoned on your clothing, just to let people know that you have dishonourable children or wives and you've done nothing about it.

So it's very understandable that sometimes retribution can takes years to be fulfilled. Like the saying goes, "Revenge is a dish best served cold." It means after five years someone who may have the same opinion as you would dismiss the possibility of revenge after such a long period of time. At least that's what they're hoping.

Here's some samples of honour killings that have either taken place in Canada where I live or used 'ambassadors' to travel to another country to restore their honour.

Apparent Modern-Day Incidence in Canada - Preliminary Examination of so-called Honour Killings in Canada

Department of Justice Canada's Internet site

www.justice.gc.ca

Before we westerners get too smug regarding the horrifying outdated practice of honour killings due to cultural and religious beliefs, how do we describe all those women who have died in western countries at the hands of their significant others? Hundreds if not thousands of women over the years have been killed by jealous husbands/boyfriends after they ended a relationship or were 'unfaithful'. Not only that, some of those significant others who feel their manhood has been put into question, make no bones about not only killing their spouse/girlfriend they kill all their children, too and perhaps when they show up at the victim's workplace they kill her workmates, too.

Western society will charge and convict someone guilty of those crimes. However, I believe the current trend of religious beliefs interfering with political platforms that promote a more 'traditional' view of a woman's place as a wife and mother is taking us on a dangerous path. IMO