NOTGUILTY Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #12

[SouthAussie]

No the above article does say the blood content was much higher.

Bit confusing to me.

From further reading, it seems that blood alcohol content increases quite quickly after death, as the body naturally produces ethanol after death. (Presence of ethanol being the way they determine alcohol content.)

This natural after-death production of ethanol shows more quickly in the blood, less quickly in the vitreous fluid. So they assume that the vitreous fluid has the better indication of alcohol levels from drinking.


I haven't linked all the articles I read about this to try to find the answer. They are highly technical and boggle the mind! Would be great if these medical professionals sometimes published things in layman terms, but then I guess they wouldn't be interesting to their peers.

 

[emirates1957]

I'm not sure about the accuracy of a BAC taken from from vitreous fluid. I'll have a 'nose around' tomorrow.

They can test for other drugs, etc (see the link I posted in reply to soso above).

Also:

'The blood alcohol test was taken using her eye fluid because the only remaining source of blood found in her chest cavity had been contaminated, the court heard.'

Gable Tostee murder trial hears Warriena Wright's body severely mangled

Please excuse my ignorance in this matter. Currently catching up .....why would the only available blood in her chest cavity be contaminated?

You have me thinking about the condition of her lifeless body splayed on the pavement. As we know GT did not call an ambulance which leaves WW to be witnessed by general members of the public. What if she hadn't been responded to in a timely matter. What if a group of party goers were walking home after an evening out and witnessed this young women.....if that was me it would be something I could never ever erase and leave me traumatised. When I was driving to work this morning it crossed my mind ...what if GT had a daughter !!!!

 

[SouthAussie]

Please excuse my ignorance in this matter. Currently catching up .....why would the only available blood in her chest cavity be contaminated?

You have me thinking about the condition of her lifeless body splayed on the pavement. As we know GT did not call an ambulance which leaves WW to be witnessed by general members of the public. What if she hadn't been responded to in a timely matter. What if a group of party goers were walking home after an evening out and witnessed this young women.....if that was me it would be something I could never ever erase and leave me traumatised. When I was driving to work this morning it crossed my mind ...what if GT had a daughter !!!!

I only wish that the cowardly Tostee had peeked his cowardly face over the balcony rail to view the scene below, or stuck around downstairs to see the beautiful girl whose body he had just been enjoying. Because if anyone deserves to have the image of Warriena after the fall - with her poor broken bones and her head hyperextended down to her trunk - stuck in his mind forever, it is him. Not the witnesses who did try to aid Warriena as quickly as they could.

I doubt he even looked at the photos from the scene. According to MSM reports, he kept his head down during almost all of the trial and watched the video playing under the desk. Probably closed his eyes when the photos were shown to the court.

 

[emirates1957]

Well said SA "the beautiful girl whose body he had been enjoying".

 

[Foolio79]

In all the photos of WW arms there was no scars to be seen on wrist or anywhere I just put that bit down to the victim blamers campaign . Jmo

layout app for photos

It was in the autopsy report.

 

[meticulously]

It was in the autopsy report.

And the photos were all over this thread . Im aware thanks

layout app for photos

 

[SouthAussie]

It was in the autopsy report.

Not that there is any proof of how they got there, hey? And the mods have asked us not to speculate on that. Hence, we don't speak of it.

I have a friend whose body is scarred with small scars, in the same areas, from being flung through the window of a car during an accident, and trying to instinctively shield her face somewhat while doing so.

 

[meticulously]

Please excuse my ignorance in this matter. Currently catching up .....why would the only available blood in her chest cavity be contaminated?

You have me thinking about the condition of her lifeless body splayed on the pavement. As we know GT did not call an ambulance which leaves WW to be witnessed by general members of the public. What if she hadn't been responded to in a timely matter. What if a group of party goers were walking home after an evening out and witnessed this young women.....if that was me it would be something I could never ever erase and leave me traumatised. When I was driving to work this morning it crossed my mind ...what if GT had a daughter !!!!

Because it fell onto the pavement , it wasnt in her body. There would be laws that govern what can be used after x amount of time . This isn't saying there's something dirty about her blood its a term for legal purposes I think . It is bad behavior to have shirked any responsibility and get someone else to go to see if ww is alive

layout app for photos

 

[Bohemian]

Please excuse my ignorance in this matter. Currently catching up .....why would the only available blood in her chest cavity be contaminated?

You have me thinking about the condition of her lifeless body splayed on the pavement. As we know GT did not call an ambulance which leaves WW to be witnessed by general members of the public. What if she hadn't been responded to in a timely matter. What if a group of party goers were walking home after an evening out and witnessed this young women.....if that was me it would be something I could never ever erase and leave me traumatised. When I was driving to work this morning it crossed my mind ...what if GT had a daughter !!!!

You're not ignorant at all, em. Warriena's upper body may have taken the full impact of her 'fall' from Gable's/not Gable's balcony. From what I can gather from the condition of her remains at autopsy via reports from MSM, the blood in her chest (thoracic) cavity may have been contaminated due to the fact that most of the blood-filled organs are housed inside, ie:

Thoracic cavity:

The chest contains the:

• trachea,
• bronchi,
• lungs,
• oesophagus,
• heart and great blood vessels,
• thymus gland,
• lymph nodes, and
• nerves.

It also contains smaller cavities too, such as:

Pleural Cavities: The pleural cavities surround each lung.

Pericardial Cavity: The pericardial cavity contains the heart.

Note: The pleural cavity surrounds both the pleural and pericardial cavities.​

If those organs were seriously damaged by the impact of Warriena's 'fall' from Gable's/not Gable's balcony, (which is highly likely) along with presumably those of the upper part of the abdominal cavity which is located just under the thoracic cavity, ie:

Abdominal Cavity: The abdominal cavity contains the:

• stomach,
• liver,
• gallbladder,
• pancreas,
• spleen,
• kidneys, and
• intestines (small and large), plus
• ovaries (in females).

Note: The peritoneal cavity (peritoneum) surrounds the abdominal organs.​

i presume any alcohol Warriena may have consumed would be at various stages of metabolism within the organs of her abdominal cavity. Also, presumably Warriena had lost quite a lot of blood, and her body was contaminated by the scene before her remains were removed from the point of impact outside Gable's/not Gable's apartment, to the morgue. Therefore, analysis of vitreous fluid from the eye may have been the only viable method available to arrive at the most scientifically accurate measure of Warriena's BAC that could be presented as evidence to the court at Gable's trial for her murder.

 

[tiddles24]

Exactly. Home brewed alcohol can be deadly and have some very adverse side effects.

Exactly....I read about a case recently where a father gave his adult son home brew & it actually killed his son....The father has been charged with Manslaughter....Just puts another very important angle on Rie's case....We don't know what Tostee put in that home brew of his, causing her bizarre behaviour that night.....It has been stated in msm that she normally only had a few beers.....It's such a pity she didn't refuse to drink it.....Maybe she did refuse & he forced it down Rie's throat.....Who knows what else happened on that horrible night....MOO

 

[Bohemian]

Not that there is any proof of how they got there, hey? And the mods have asked us not to speculate on that. Hence, we don't speak of it.

I have a friend whose body is scarred with small scars, in the same areas, from being flung through the window of a car during an accident, and trying to instinctively shield her face somewhat while doing so.

Also scarring on the body can be inflicted by skin-picking, for many reasons:

Skin Picking

 

[Bohemian]

It was in the autopsy report.

As you've yet to post a link to the 'autopsy report', let's just say 'It was in MSM articles reporting on the expert witness' testimony of Warriena's autopsy report.'

 

[Bohemian]

From further reading, it seems that blood alcohol content increases quite quickly after death, as the body naturally produces ethanol after death. (Presence of ethanol being the way they determine alcohol content.)

This natural after-death production of ethanol shows more quickly in the blood, less quickly in the vitreous fluid. So they assume that the vitreous fluid has the better indication of alcohol levels from drinking.

Dies this help SA:

'Qualitative and quantitative analysis of ethanol in postmortem specimens is a relatively simple analytical procedure and with gas chromatographic methods, accurate, precise, and specific results are possible. However, difficulties arise when the concentration of alcohol in a postmortem blood specimen is interpreted and conclusions are drawn about a person’s state of inebriation at the time of death. Translating a BAC determined at autopsy into the amount of alcohol in the body at the time of death is subject to considerable uncertainty.

A major problem associated with postmortem alcohol analysis is the risk that the alcohol, at least in part, was generated or destroyed between the time of death and the time of the autopsy or after taking the specimens and performing the toxicological analysis. This becomes a major dilemma when decomposed bodies are examined and requests are made for alcohol analysis. The blood-glucose concentration increases after death owing to mobilization and hydrolysis of glycogen stores in the liver and muscle tissue thus providing abundant substrate for microbial synthesis of alcohol. This occurs by various processes when the conditions of time, temperature and number and nature of available microorganisms are optimal. After death the process of autolysis begins and body compartments are progressively destroyed. Within a few hours of death, bacteria and microorganisms begin to spread from the gastrointestinal canal through the portal system, and eventually reach deep into the vascular system.

If alcohol was present in the stomach at the time of death, e.g. if the deceased had consumed alcohol before a fatal accident, this might diffuse into surrounding tissues such as the liver, heart, lungs and major blood vessels. For this reason the analysis of alcohol in stomach contents is a common practice in forensic toxicology to compare with blood-alcohol concentration thus providing a clue as to whether the person had died shortly after drinking alcohol.[]

Post Mortem​

I haven't linked all the articles I read about this to try to find the answer. They are highly technical and boggle the mind! Would be great if these medical professionals sometimes published things in layman terms, but then I guess they wouldn't be interesting to their peers.

Post the most relevant scientific journal articles please SA. All this talk of forensics and autopsies is right up my alley

View attachment 104771​

I agree, 'science communication' wrt to the general public leaves a lot to be desired. There is recognition in the academic and media 'worlds' that this is a problem. Some science degrees now include at least one semester's course of instruction on this topic. The use of techical language (or 'jargon') is for the sake of accuracy and scientific rigor rather than to be exclusive or elitist nowadays. This was not so in the past.

 

[emirates1957]

You're not ignorant at all, em. Warriena's upper body may have taken the full impact of her 'fall' from Gable's/not Gable's balcony. From what I can gather from the condition of her remains at autopsy via reports from MSM, the blood in her chest (thoracic) cavity may have been contaminated due to the fact that most of the blood-filled organs are housed inside, ie:

Thoracic cavity:

The chest contains the:

• trachea,
• bronchi,
• lungs,
• oesophagus,
• heart and great blood vessels,
• thymus gland,
• lymph nodes, and
• nerves.

It also contains smaller cavities too, such as:

Pleural Cavities: The pleural cavities surround each lung.

Pericardial Cavity: The pericardial cavity contains the heart.

Note: The pleural cavity surrounds both the pleural and pericardial cavities.​

If those organs were seriously damaged by the impact of Warriena's 'fall' from Gable's/not Gable's balcony, (which is highly likely) along with presumably those of the upper part of the abdominal cavity which is located just under the thoracic cavity, ie:

Abdominal Cavity: The abdominal cavity contains the:

• stomach,
• liver,
• gallbladder,
• pancreas,
• spleen,
• kidneys, and
• intestines (small and large), plus
• ovaries (in females).

Note: The peritoneal cavity (peritoneum) surrounds the abdominal organs.​

i presume any alcohol Warriena may have consumed would be at various stages of metabolism within the organs of her abdominal cavity. Also, presumably Warriena had lost quite a lot of blood, and her body was contaminated by the scene before her remains were removed from the point of impact outside Gable's/not Gable's apartment, to the morgue. Therefore, analysis of vitreous fluid from the eye may have been the only viable method available to arrive at the most scientifically accurate measure of Warriena's BAC that could be presented as evidence to the court at Gable's trial for her murder.

Thank you Met and Bo .... I'm speechless along with deep sadness.

 

[Karinna]

Oh, thanks for pointing that out, Karinna, but Im well aware that courts get it wrong, and you seem to have forgotten my previous post in prior threads that alluded to the false incarceration rate in the USA being about 1.5%, and about 0.75% in Australia from memory.

The bolded bit in my original comment was sarcasm. It is very clear to me in this case the court got it right, and I haven't heard one thing here or anywhere to disprove it. Prominent criminal lawyers in Brisbane have publicly queried why this was ever brought to trial.

As non participating lay people, we wouldn't have enough of an insight into most cases to make a claim of miscarriage of justice. However, there are cases where a blatant errors of logic and fairness are apparent to even the casual observer, and I hope these are the ones you are referring to.

In this thread, ridiculous unsubstantiated claims were made that the judge was incompetent or corrupt. Rather some of the more cogent reasons for miscarriages are as follows -

1. In 15% of wrongful conviction cases overturned through DNA testing, statements from people with incentives to testify — particularly incentives that are not disclosed to the jury — were critical evidence used to convict an innocent person.
2. A review of convictions overturned by DNA testing reveals a trail of sleeping, drunk, incompetent and overburdened defense attorneys, at the trial level and on appeal.
3. Many forensic techniques — such as hair microscopy, bite mark comparisons, firearm tool mark analysis and shoe print comparisons — have not been subjected to sufficient scientific evaluation and have resulted in error.
4. Evidence of fraud, negligence or misconduct by prosecutors or police is disturbingly not uncommon among the DNA exoneration cases.
5. Astonishingly, more than 1 out of 4 people wrongfully convicted but later exonerated by DNA evidence made a false confession or incriminating statement.
6. Eyewitness misidentification is the greatest contributing factor to wrongful convictions proven by DNA testing, playing a role in more than 70% of convictions overturned through DNA testing nationwide.

Source : http://www.innocenceproject.org/ (Steven Avery's case is mentioned there.)

Take note of the second point - anyone who hires an incompetent lawyer, or is relegated to using a public defender, is putting their outcome at risk.
Take note of the fifth point - clearly people are railroaded by the police, and it is a smarter person who "lawyers up" first before speaking to police. Very pertinent to this case, considering the swift yet unfounded charges that were brought.

<modsnip>

 

[Bohemian]

Thank you Met and Bo .... I'm speechless along with deep sadness.

My pleasure. I learned long ago that I need to be as detached as I can be in matters of forensics. Once someone is deceased they are no longer suffering. The suffering is borne by their family, friends, loved ones, witnesses to their deaths and, of course, first responders. My heart breaks for the deceased immediately prior to, and at the point of, their violent deaths and for the unnecessary grief and trauma everyone suffers as a consequence.

 

[Karinna]

My pleasure. I learned long ago that I need to be as detached as I can be in matters of forensics. Once someone is deceased they are no longer suffering. The suffering is borne by their family, friends, loved ones, witnesses to their deaths and, of course, first responders. My heart breaks for the deceased immediately prior to and at the point of their violent death and for the unnecessary grief and trauma everyone suffers as a consequence.

I agree Bohemian. I believe in WW's death she would of either been knocked unconscious or dead as soon as her body hit the first solid object, and would not been aware of hitting the ground below.
My son died a violent death in an MVA, and the autopsy report showed multiple injuries, compound fracture of his femur, lots of internal bleeding, bleeding around the brain etc. etc. But i knew that he was already gone as soon as impact happened and wouldn't of known much about it. Our bodies are geared for death, we all die somehow eventually.
The thought that i had too was when i have ever badly injured myself like nearly cut off a finger with a sharp knife while peeling veggies, i didn't feel it straightaway, and once after a few seconds we do that's when the pain sets in.
But anyway autopsy reports are after the fact and even though they sound awful and as you say it's only us left behind that grieve.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I agree Bohemian. I believe in WW's death she would of either been knocked unconscious or dead as soon as her body hit the first solid object, and would not been aware of hitting the ground below.
My son died a violent death in an MVA, and the autopsy report showed multiple injuries, compound fracture of his femur, lots of internal bleeding, bleeding around the brain etc. etc. But i knew that he was already gone as soon as impact happened and wouldn't of known much about it. Our bodies are geared for death, we all die somehow eventually.
The thought that i had too was when i have ever badly injured myself like nearly cut off a finger with a sharp knife while peeling veggies, i didn't feel it straightaway, and once after a few seconds we do that's when the pain sets in.
But anyway autopsy reports are after the fact and even though they sound awful and as you say it's only us left behind that grieve.

:grouphug:

 

[Karinna]

I also think the only little bit of shock Warriena would of had is that once her beautiful spirit was no longer in her body, that she didn't really die at all.
I know this because my son came to me in a vision the night he died, and as i was laying on my bed in shock after my family got the news that day of his sudden death he showed me that he was even more beautiful in his spirit body than he was here on earth. It wasn't a dream i had either because i wasn't asleep he showed me that he was okay to comfort me, even though i shed many tears for a long time afterwards.
Death really is nothing to fear.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I also think the only little bit of shock Warriena would of had is that once her beautiful spirit was no longer in her body, that she didn't really die at all.
I know this because my son came to me in a vision the night he died, and as i was laying on my bed in shock after my family got the news that day of his sudden death he showed me that he was even more beautiful in his spirit body than he was here on earth. It wasn't a dream i had either because i wasn't asleep he showed me that he was okay to comfort me, even though i shed many tears for a long time afterwards.
Death really is nothing to fear.

I believe that's true and thank you for sharing your experience, it is comforting to know they're at peace.