Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #9

[Cleaver Greene]

It's pretty clear that a lot of WS'ers want to see GT in the slot. The same is probably true for some jurors...but it should not interfere with the conclusion. Both these families are changed forever, particularly WW's. Both these young adults made poor choices, a string of them actually, and many people's lives will never be the same. If jury is hung, prosecution will have to try the matter again. Will they do it differently?

I don't think prosecution can do it differently if there is another trial. I'm sure this is not the way prosecution wanted to run the trial. They would have attempted to lead evidence but the Judge has obviously ruled that a lot of the proposed evidence was inadmissible.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

If he removed her to balcony and locked door, how was he NOT in control? No snark I swear, just curious on your take on that.

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She could have called out for help. When the neighbour told her to go back inside she could have asked him for help.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I suspect he realized that at 2 am, the neighbors were going to call the police instead. In fact, he may have been counting on it.

The police were called after Warriena was lying dead on the ground. Tostee fled the scene, why didn't he wait for the police, or even better, call them himself? You've got good intentions, this man does not.

IT is irrelevant. The judge has instructed the jury to disregard all events after the fall.

I'm not on the jury fairydust, I don't need reminding. I was making a point with Cleverknot.

 

[BasTyra]

That can't be concluded. Speculation of choking sound. Pathologist found no evidence of trauma. That is reasonable doubt.

Can't the exact same thing be said of the pebbles?
And the metal object she allegedly hit him with but actually didnt?

 

[ninij9]

Correction, the neighbour below, her guest Nick told WW to get back inside. She testified to this. You would not hear it, because they were below, out of range of the recorder, which was on Tostee's person, now inside the unit. .

I tried to edit. I misunderstood the OP. I wrongly read it as a statement attributed to GT. My error.

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[ninij9]

She could have called out for help. When the neighbour told her to go back inside she could have asked him for help.

Ok. But that doesn't mean he was not in control at that point. The argument is that you stated he was not in control. By all of his supporters accounts he was in control once he neutralized the situation by chucking her on the balcony. Whether she sought help at that point doesn't diminish his control unless his goal was to KEEP her there. JMO.

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[ninij9]

Can't the exact same thing be said of the pebbles?
And the metal object she allegedly hit him with but actually didnt?

I get angry that prosecution conceded these points. Should have fought all the way and picked it apart, shredded it. Its sad really.

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[LozDa]

<modsnip>

Anyway, inside the 'unit' or not, with force or not, whether it was on the tape or not... we are free to surmise as much as we want and I wish people would stop saying that comments are 'irrelevant'. Whilst they may be irrelevant in court or to the jury, we are free to discuss as we choose.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

I get angry that prosecution conceded these points. Should have fought all the way and picked it apart, shredded it. Its sad really.

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There were pebbles strewn over the room; there was GT's blood on some of them and he said in the audio that she had hit him with the pebbles. If the prosecutor had denied WW had thrown pebbles at GT, the judge would have had to direct the jury to find that this had occurred. And the jury would then disbelieve anything else the prosecutor said.

This was not shoddy work by the prosecutor. This was a prosecutor doing the best he could with the evidence he was allowed to tender. When the trial is over, we will all read about what prosecution tried to get admitted but was ruled inadmissible by the Judge.

 

[Makara]

There are two known facts that support this hypothesis.

Please supply a link to this statement.

 

[Makara]

Exactly. This is always the reason why I though he said "Shut your #$%#@#$ mouth". He had a good reputation as a tenant, and he did not like having that upset, and any decent tenant wouldnt. It is good manners not to scream in a residential tenement, at any time.

BBM: Please post a link to back up this statement, otherwise it is just hearsay.

 

[Kitsune]

OK trying to catch up on everything from tonight, there are some really good posts....this case is bringing out emotions from people every where not just here, that's a positive in my eyes, shows we all have empathy, regardless of who thinks who was in the wrong or if anyone was at all.....my heads spinning, time for some sleep and hopefully tomorrow there is some news. Night people's :bedtime:

 

[Karinna]

OK trying to catch up on everything from tonight, there are some really good posts....this case is bringing out emotions from people every where not just here, that's a positive in my eyes, shows we all have empathy, regardless of who thinks who was in the wrong or if anyone was at all.....my heads spinning, time for some sleep and hopefully tomorrow there is some news. Night people's :bedtime:

That happens in most murder cases i have followed here and elsewhere, that people are passionate to see Justice for murder victims and their families, and that is as it should be.
Sadly justice doesn't happen in a lot of cases either. The justice system seems to be rigged in favor of the perps. where they have rights and the victims don't. Hopefully that will change when some of the archaic judicial systems become obsolete in the future. It is up to all of us to demand change, for a better world for our future generations where hopefully crime will become a thing of the past or hugely minimised. But i agree, we all need to grow our heart in such a violent world for all that is good and moral because our survival as a species depends on it. All IMO.

 

[ninij9]

Ugh. I hate that it is 1:30am there, and 11:30am here...

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[Dogface]

Can someone explain to me why things the jury are not suppose to consider were even presented in the first place?

 

[CleverKnot]

I'm not on the jury fairydust, I don't need reminding. I was making a point with Cleverknot.

For all,we know, after he closed the door, he was heading for his phone to call the police to have her escorted out peacefully.

I can guarantee you, whatever he was going to do the seconds before he realized she fell, changed in the few seconds after he realized she fell.

I can also guarantee he realized the optics, and how no matter what he did, he was now in for a hell of a legal, and personal mess. I can imagine the sudden, and intense weight of what he was now in, and could not turn back and change.

Have you ever seen the reaction of people to someone falling to their death? Some people don't flinch. Some people throw up. Some people need to lay down. Some people don't come out of the shock until later and finally feel something.

Chances are he had some Hail Mary hope that she would survive, and didn't want to deal with the reality. Chances are, he spent a lot of that time feeling sorry for himself and trying to figure out what to do. He could have been ditching something incriminating for all we know.

He also didn't go on the lam a la O.J. As far as I know, he didn't deny he was there, or make everyone jump through hoops with different stories. He was some goofball, on a dating site, drinking and getting laid, when suddenly, he's up to his armpits in real life and a possible murder charge.

I suspect there are a few different reactions that seem odd, but aren't evidence of criminal intent.

 

[CleverKnot]

Can someone explain to me why things the jury are not suppose to consider were even presented in the first place?

Sometimes, it's particular interpretations of relevant evidence that need to be discussed and excluded. Yes, what he did afterward was relevant to a point, but you can't base a guilty verdict solely on the fact he had pizza.

 

[BasTyra]

In the audio:
1. You hear the balcony door open during a tussle.
2. A split second later she starts screaming NO, NO and **** YOU or **** NO a couple of times.
3. The rustling stops and GT says "who the **** do you think you are, hmm?" the audio is quite loud here and it sounds like they are on the balcony or almost on it, the way the audio is more amplified than the rest of the recording. The fact there is not much rustling at this point leads me to think he's either forced her out and shoved her back toward the edge of the balcony and he is still standing near the doorway or he's opened the door to the balcony and is restraining her near it, and she isn't able to struggle. This is where she starts screaming NO repeatedly.
4. A few seconds later, after he asks her "you trying to kill me? then why did you try to hit me with that, hmm?", her screams amplify and she lets out that really high shrieking "no". So here she TRIED to hit him with something. She didn't succeed, he got it out of her grip after a lengthy choking session and he was safe at last from her scary, violent ways. Cool, she can go home now, right? Toss her out the front door, yeah? Nope.
5. He tells her to shut her ****ing mouth while she continues screaming "no".
6. Her screams get a little wilder and there is a little rustling again, then he tells her "it's all on recording you know", "It's all been recorded" the end of that sentence is forced like he's struggling, or about to move suddenly.
7. There is another struggle, she continues screaming "no". We hear the glass knocked over on the balcony for the first time here so they are definitely both on the balcony at this point if not earlier. I suspect they've been on the balcony together from the moment the doors were opened.
8. A few seconds of struggling and GT says "You're coming with me". This is when she starts begging to go home. They are already on the balcony at this point because they've knocked that glass over, so when he says "You're coming with me" where exactly is he taking her? The balcony isn't that big. Was he taking her to the railing edge so he could scare her a bit more just like he did by "lifting" that other woman who was on his balcony? Was he taking her to the sunbed so she could get a tan? There weren't many places to go, but I'm pretty sure "over the edge" was at the forefront of her mind at this point.
9. More struggling and her screaming to go home, the glass is knocked about again. She is still begging to be allowed to go home. During this struggle or movement is when he says, "I would, but you've been a bad girl" and slams the door shut and you hear a clicking noise. I think this last bit of struggling is because he was taking her to the edge of the balcony. She is probably trying very hard to get back inside so I would say he forces her away, jumps back inside and locks the door so she can't follow.

All the screaming is happening with the balcony doors open. I don't think he gave a **** about his neighbours hearing, he probably knows they don't react to noise. They either didn't hear all the screaming despite the doors being open or they simply didn't care enough to rush out quickly and see what was going on. Perhaps the noise didn't carry as much as I would imagine to the lower, upper and side apartments as it would to an apartment directly across. Unfortunately there wasn't one directly across.

This all occurred after we hear noises that sound very much like she is being choked. Her swallowing noises remind me of the sound you make at the dentist when your mouth has been open for ages and you have a pool of saliva in there and it's difficult to swallow. This makes me wonder again what he is actually doing to her. It sounds like she's swallowing with her mouth open. The same sounds were on the audio earlier in the evening when she sounded like she was being gagged by something - in particular the part where he says "got something to say? say it?" she sounds like something is shoved in her mouth and it's making swallowing noisy and difficult, she also can't say the word "sexist" probably because of whatever is in her mouth. He has her pinned down for several minutes before the balcony doors are opened, this is right after her needing to poo and him losing his cool over something she does during that conversation. That or she didn't even do anything and he's just fake-escalating the situation on his own for the sake of the recording. She could just be pinned there, unable to do anything.
Anyway, she's pinned, he does his whole "you aren't leaving with anything" macho routine and he says "do you understand? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" at this point i can hear soft breathing noises from her and what sounds like a very faint "yes" followed by another very faint "yes", it sounds like she could be crying quietly. Can anyone else hear it better?"

Then he tells her to get up while she apologises quietly and the major struggle happens - I would say she's made a mad dash for the door or for something she can use against him because by this point she is really scared. He pins her again. "You don't understand. You don't understand anything at all, do you. You don't understand, do you?" the tone of his voice the third time is incredibly scary. This is when she starts gagging/choking. I really want to know where the device he's recording on is situated because in this part it's VERY clear to begin with then when he says "you think you can hit me?" it's like he's moved further away from the device. He continuously tells her to let go of whatever is in her hand. It's only after her breathing gets really bad then becomes quieter that there is a thud of her dropping whatever she was allegedly holding. After this he drags her to the balcony doors.

Here's the thing, if he's so concerned for his well being and his home, why is he taunting her so much while he has her pinned down and she's gagging or has her mouth covered? Why taunt her about having something to say when he's clearly obstructing her ability to speak? Why go on and on and on about what he's gonna do and how things are gonna play out? He does not sound drunk at all and I would say this is one of the reasons he went for his long walk, he didn't go to sober up, he was likely already almost sober. He wasted time so it could be used to justify him NOT being as drunk as she was. If they checked his alcohol level straight away and he was sober or tipsy, while she was insanely blotto, it would have looked incredibly bad for him.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can listen to that audio and not come to the conclusion that he's scared her into going over the railing.

One of my main issues with the audio is how level headed and calculated GT sounds, especially in comparison to her. He doesn't sound at all like a person who fears for their safety. He sounds cold and controlling and he had so very many opportunities to throw her out his front door and didn't take them. I don't think he's worried about himself or his property, I think he's angry.

Anyway, I'm waffling and should be sleeping. Gnight

 

[CleverKnot]

Whew, that's a long one, so I won't quote it.

I suspect several people reading this, at one point, had to deal with someone who was irate, and either bluffed that they were recording it, or pulled their phone out to record it.

Why?

To de-escalate the situation, and coerce the irate person into calm, rational discussion.

 

[Estelle]

In the audio:
1. You hear the balcony door open during a tussle.
2. A split second later she starts screaming NO, NO and **** YOU or **** NO a couple of times.
3. The rustling stops and GT says "who the **** do you think you are, hmm?" the audio is quite loud here and it sounds like they are on the balcony or almost on it, the way the audio is more amplified than the rest of the recording. The fact there is not much rustling at this point leads me to think he's either forced her out and shoved her back toward the edge of the balcony and he is still standing near the doorway or he's opened the door to the balcony and is restraining her near it, and she isn't able to struggle. This is where she starts screaming NO repeatedly.
4. A few seconds later, after he asks her "you trying to kill me? then why did you try to hit me with that, hmm?", her screams amplify and she lets out that really high shrieking "no". So here she TRIED to hit him with something. She didn't succeed, he got it out of her grip after a lengthy choking session and he was safe at last from her scary, violent ways. Cool, she can go home now, right? Toss her out the front door, yeah? Nope.
5. He tells her to shut her ****ing mouth while she continues screaming "no".
6. Her screams get a little wilder and there is a little rustling again, then he tells her "it's all on recording you know", "It's all been recorded" the end of that sentence is forced like he's struggling, or about to move suddenly.
7. There is another struggle, she continues screaming "no". We hear the glass knocked over on the balcony for the first time here so they are definitely both on the balcony at this point if not earlier. I suspect they've been on the balcony together from the moment the doors were opened.
8. A few seconds of struggling and GT says "You're coming with me". This is when she starts begging to go home. They are already on the balcony at this point because they've knocked that glass over, so when he says "You're coming with me" where exactly is he taking her? The balcony isn't that big. Was he taking her to the railing edge so he could scare her a bit more just like he did by "lifting" that other woman who was on his balcony? Was he taking her to the sunbed so she could get a tan? There weren't many places to go, but I'm pretty sure "over the edge" was at the forefront of her mind at this point.
9. More struggling and her screaming to go home, the glass is knocked about again. She is still begging to be allowed to go home. During this struggle or movement is when he says, "I would, but you've been a bad girl" and slams the door shut and you hear a clicking noise. I think this last bit of struggling is because he was taking her to the edge of the balcony. She is probably trying very hard to get back inside so I would say he forces her away, jumps back inside and locks the door so she can't follow.

All the screaming is happening with the balcony doors open. I don't think he gave a **** about his neighbours hearing, he probably knows they don't react to noise. They either didn't hear all the screaming despite the doors being open or they simply didn't care enough to rush out quickly and see what was going on. Perhaps the noise didn't carry as much as I would imagine to the lower, upper and side apartments as it would to an apartment directly across. Unfortunately there wasn't one directly across.

This all occurred after we hear noises that sound very much like she is being choked. Her swallowing noises remind me of the sound you make at the dentist when your mouth has been open for ages and you have a pool of saliva in there and it's difficult to swallow. This makes me wonder again what he is actually doing to her. It sounds like she's swallowing with her mouth open. The same sounds were on the audio earlier in the evening when she sounded like she was being gagged by something - in particular the part where he says "got something to say? say it?" she sounds like something is shoved in her mouth and it's making swallowing noisy and difficult, she also can't say the word "sexist" probably because of whatever is in her mouth. He has her pinned down for several minutes before the balcony doors are opened, this is right after her needing to poo and him losing his cool over something she does during that conversation. That or she didn't even do anything and he's just fake-escalating the situation on his own for the sake of the recording. She could just be pinned there, unable to do anything.
Anyway, she's pinned, he does his whole "you aren't leaving with anything" macho routine and he says "do you understand? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" at this point i can hear soft breathing noises from her and what sounds like a very faint "yes" followed by another very faint "yes", it sounds like she could be crying quietly. Can anyone else hear it better?"

Then he tells her to get up while she apologises quietly and the major struggle happens - I would say she's made a mad dash for the door or for something she can use against him because by this point she is really scared. He pins her again. "You don't understand. You don't understand anything at all, do you. You don't understand, do you?" the tone of his voice the third time is incredibly scary. This is when she starts gagging/choking. I really want to know where the device he's recording on is situated because in this part it's VERY clear to begin with then when he says "you think you can hit me?" it's like he's moved further away from the device. He continuously tells her to let go of whatever is in her hand. It's only after her breathing gets really bad then becomes quieter that there is a thud of her dropping whatever she was allegedly holding. After this he drags her to the balcony doors.

Here's the thing, if he's so concerned for his well being and his home, why is he taunting her so much while he has her pinned down and she's gagging or has her mouth covered? Why taunt her about having something to say when he's clearly obstructing her ability to speak? Why go on and on and on about what he's gonna do and how things are gonna play out? He does not sound drunk at all and I would say this is one of the reasons he went for his long walk, he didn't go to sober up, he was likely already almost sober. He wasted time so it could be used to justify him NOT being as drunk as she was. If they checked his alcohol level straight away and he was sober or tipsy, while she was insanely blotto, it would have looked incredibly bad for him.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can listen to that audio and not come to the conclusion that he's scared her into going over the railing.

One of my main issues with the audio is how level headed and calculated GT sounds, especially in comparison to her. He doesn't sound at all like a person who fears for their safety. He sounds cold and controlling and he had so very many opportunities to throw her out his front door and didn't take them. I don't think he's worried about himself or his property, I think he's angry.

Anyway, I'm waffling and should be sleeping. Gnight

:goodpost: