Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sep 2014 - #65

[sniffsniffcough]

Crikey I’m asking myself the same thing Violet

The original post had an error in initials and now corrected upthread to FFC from MFC I understand.

 

[Violet77]

Crikey I’m asking myself the same thing Violet

 

[katydid23]

With respect, I am a social worker in the foster care space and I was raised from a baby in a non-biological family...raising someone else's child with the best intentions can be surprisingly difficult. You can't love a child out of their trauma. As much as foster/adoptive parents want to be "the real parents" they cannot be. At the same time, they are not "babysitters" or a "place-h0lder" but they are not and cannot take the place of the birth parents. This relationship is ingrained in the baby in utero and reinforced during and immediately after birth. When a fracture takes place the child suffers trauma. This may take a lot of time to bond thereafter with another caregiver/parent, but the mother/child relationship will never be forgotten at an unconscious level. Another parent relationship is possible of course, but it takes time, patience and great sensitivity to create that bond. IMHO.

Both of my children, now grown, and parents themselves, consider me to be Mom. They had open adoptions, which were vital--- but by their teen years they both chose to step away from their active birth family connections because of the difficult circumstances, which had led to them being removed from the family in the first place. But they were no longer 'in trauma' about the fracture because it had been healed over time. They had time to know their birth families and to fully process the situations and to feel able to stay in contact in the future if they would like to.

I do , with all respect, take issue with the statement that adoptive mothers ' cannot be the real parents.' I was in the delivery room when both our babies were born. We were able to take them home 48 hours later. I was a stay at home mom and my children did not go to day care until they were ready for Pre-k at age 4. I did all of those things because I did not want my kids to feel fractured or to have trauma that some babies have from being bounced around after their birth.

So I AM their mum. I was the one person who cared for them every single day and night of their lives, and from 48 hours old.. I can never take the place of their birth parents and wouldn't want to. My kids know where they got their smiles and their physical attributes and their talents and their laughs and their ethnic traits. But I can still be 'mom' because that was what I did, actively and lovingly.

We talk about adoption quite openly because it is what it is and we have always been very truthful about it with everyone. My kids feel like they were supposed to end up being in our family, and it wasn't a bad thing or negative thing the way it happened---it was a spiritual thing and our family was created the way it was supposed to be, which is not the usual way but things happen for a reason.

It did not take a lot of time for them to bond with us as parents. Even though they had visits with birth family members, and calls and letters, they always knew that we were their forever family, and the family they would grow up with. That was comforting to them and to us. There is plenty of love to go around.

 

[Warshawski]

Some fostering boundaries/ rights appeared to have blurred into adoption boundaries/rights and that no matter how well intentioned for the children they thought they where its just not ok what happened here.

I know a fostering family and she never refers to herself as mum.
They are first names and she refers to herself as such and suches carer. She helps support the child with their parents relationship. And its bad.
Selfless wonderful human being.

But that is a can of worms because for every amazing foster family out there is a dooshbag one.
So like everything its individual.

But Williams foster family created a nice home and surroundings for him on the surface but were not supportive of his relationship with his biological family and trying to eliminate them out of his life was not the usual or their place morally or legally. (IMO)

moo

i agree with you k-Mac. Have first hand experience of a wonderful foster woman caring for a challenged / ing young girl; sharing progress, access & holiday time with her bio-aunt & Granny while the dad in jail & mother unknown whereabouts.
There were no blurred lines here, but imo, there were in the case of William & his sister.
And like so many others, I question how that came about & was allowed to continue.

What the departmental reporting chain / checks & balances I wonder ?

I understand from an upstream post that there were 2 case workers - one from FACS & one from Salvos ? umm - 2 harder to hoodwink ....

Or was one for Lindsay & a different one for William ?

Were these 2 at the Court Case way back for the suppression order ?

None of this brings William back, or solves the mystery, but if his Legacy is to expose & bring about change in the workings of all things ‘social services’ in our government arena, his very short time on earth will have achieved a great deal ... IMO

 

[HilaryHormone]

I was suggesting that the surveillance may have been prior to the AVO and new dig.

I think the FC’s have been very aware of the direction this was taking, for a few months at least, so my point still stands. JMO.

Good point about lockdown & visits being potentially cancelled. Does anyone have any information on this?

That is a good point, I would be interested to hear how the Australian authorities approached that. Court ordered contacts went ahead face to face during lockdowns here, with appropriate measures in place regarding hygiene and distancing e.g. PPE. If symptoms had been reported or travel was restricted, we facilitated video calls. There were staff shortages with people taking ill or people shielding, but it was very much business as usual after the initial confusion.

 

[Green beans]

Back to William, does anyone know when the forensics on FGM’s car could be completed? Like an aprox time frame?

 

[Marg944]

Maybe she was feeling very distressed and her mind was on other matters besides choosing her clothing for the day. imo.

I wonder if it would be possible that she could leave the house on an occasion wearing slippers on her feet, then once at her car realise her mistake and go back into her house to put proper shoes on her feet?

 

[Limaes]

I think the FC’s have been very aware of the direction this was taking, for a few months at least, so my point still stands. JMO.

Respectfully snipped.

In my opinion they knew the writing was on the wall when GJ got flicked. Hence their anger.

 

[Violet77]

Both of my children, now grown, and parents themselves, consider me to be Mom. They had open adoptions, which were vital--- but by their teen years they both chose to step away from their active birth family connections because of the difficult circumstances, which had led to them being removed from the family in the first place. But they were no longer 'in trauma' about the fracture because it had been healed over time. They had time to know their birth families and to fully process the situations and to feel able to stay in contact in the future if they would like to.

I do , with all respect, take issue with the statement that adoptive mothers ' cannot be the real parents.' I was in the delivery room when both our babies were born. We were able to take them home 48 hours later. I was a stay at home mom and my children did not go to day care until they were ready for Pre-k at age 4. I did all of those things because I did not want my kids to feel fractured or to have trauma that some babies have from being bounced around after their birth.

So I AM their mum. I was the one person who cared for them every single day and night of their lives, and from 48 hours old.. I can never take the place of their birth parents and wouldn't want to. My kids know where they got their smiles and their physical attributes and their talents and their laughs and their ethnic traits. But I can still be 'mom' because that was what I did, actively and lovingly.

We talk about adoption quite openly because it is what it is and we have always been very truthful about it with everyone. My kids feel like they were supposed to end up being in our family, and it wasn't a bad thing or negative thing the way it happened---it was a spiritual thing and our family was created the way it was supposed to be, which is not the usual way but things happen for a reason.

It did not take a lot of time for them to bond with us as parents. Even though they had visits with birth family members, and calls and letters, they always knew that we were their forever family, and the family they would grow up with. That was comforting to them and to us. There is plenty of love to go around.

I actually thought of you when I saw that post, family is love, not blood IMO

 

[Jeckandi]

That’s beautifully written and welcome Jeckandi.

My two cousins were adopted and raised by people who truly wanted and loved their children.
My two cousins went on a hunt to find their true mother who, unfortunately ‘had not a maternal bone in her body’
They walked away loving and admiring their adoptive parents all the more.

I'm glad your cousins found more reason to love their adoptive parents. That's a great ending to their search, notwithstanding their disappointment in their bio mother. Bu

Both of my children, now grown, and parents themselves, consider me to be Mom. They had open adoptions, which were vital--- but by their teen years they both chose to step away from their active birth family connections because of the difficult circumstances, which had led to them being removed from the family in the first place. But they were no longer 'in trauma' about the fracture because it had been healed over time. They had time to know their birth families and to fully process the situations and to feel able to stay in contact in the future if they would like to.

I do , with all respect, take issue with the statement that adoptive mothers ' cannot be the real parents.' I was in the delivery room when both our babies were born. We were able to take them home 48 hours later. I was a stay at home mom and my children did not go to day care until they were ready for Pre-k at age 4. I did all of those things because I did not want my kids to feel fractured or to have trauma that some babies have from being bounced around after their birth.

So I AM their mum. I was the one person who cared for them every single day and night of their lives, and from 48 hours old.. I can never take the place of their birth parents and wouldn't want to. My kids know where they got their smiles and their physical attributes and their talents and their laughs and their ethnic traits. But I can still be 'mom' because that was what I did, actively and lovingly.

We talk about adoption quite openly because it is what it is and we have always been very truthful about it with everyone. My kids feel like they were supposed to end up being in our family, and it wasn't a bad thing or negative thing the way it happened---it was a spiritual thing and our family was created the way it was supposed to be, which is not the usual way but things happen for a reason.

It did not take a lot of time for them to bond with us as parents. Even though they had visits with birth family members, and calls and letters, they always knew that we were their forever family, and the family they would grow up with. That was comforting to them and to us. There is plenty of love to go around.

Thank. you for sharing your story. You have obviously been an amazing mum. You note "But they were no longer 'in trauma' about the fracture because it had been healed over time. They had time to know their birth families and to fully process the situations and to feel able to stay in contact in the future if they would like to." This is the point. Not all, and in my experience, most children in the system do not get the choice to remain connected to their birth parents and make that choice. It sounds like you and your family's experience has been beautiful. I know that isn't a reality for a lot of people, and you've been truly blessed.

 

[agrid]

My biological parents were killed in a car crash when I was one year old. My three year old sister and I were adopted and sent to Australia. I recall nothing but my sister very vaguely remembers the plane flight and a lot of fuss. It seems to me that LT may well have recollection of what happened whe WT disappeared.

 

[Jaded325594]

[

Both of my children, now grown, and parents themselves, consider me to be Mom. They had open adoptions, which were vital--- but by their teen years they both chose to step away from their active birth family connections because of the difficult circumstances, which had led to them being removed from the family in the first place. But they were no longer 'in trauma' about the fracture because it had been healed over time. They had time to know their birth families and to fully process the situations and to feel able to stay in contact in the future if they would like to.

I do , with all respect, take issue with the statement that adoptive mothers ' cannot be the real parents.' I was in the delivery room when both our babies were born. We were able to take them home 48 hours later. I was a stay at home mom and my children did not go to day care until they were ready for Pre-k at age 4. I did all of those things because I did not want my kids to feel fractured or to have trauma that some babies have from being bounced around after their birth.

So I AM their mum. I was the one person who cared for them every single day and night of their lives, and from 48 hours old.. I can never take the place of their birth parents and wouldn't want to. My kids know where they got their smiles and their physical attributes and their talents and their laughs and their ethnic traits. But I can still be 'mom' because that was what I did, actively and lovingly.

We talk about adoption quite openly because it is what it is and we have always been very truthful about it with everyone. My kids feel like they were supposed to end up being in our family, and it wasn't a bad thing or negative thing the way it happened---it was a spiritual thing and our family was created the way it was supposed to be, which is not the usual way but things happen for a reason.

It did not take a lot of time for them to bond with us as parents. Even though they had visits with birth family members, and calls and letters, they always knew that we were their forever family, and the family they would grow up with. That was comforting to them and to us. There is plenty of love to go around.

Beautiful xx
Key word for me here is choice. They chose to step away. An adult (you or another person) didn't choose for them.

 

[Jaded325594]

My biological parents were killed in a car crash when I was one year old. My three year old sister and I were adopted and sent to Australia. I recall nothing but my sister very vaguely remembers the plane flight and a lot of fuss. It seems to me that LT may well have recollection of what happened whe WT disappeared.

Definitely possible. My memories at 4 years old are pretty patchy, then again maybe a more significant memory would stay in your mind.

 

[DALRIADA]

Once age 12 the child can choose to enter an adoption without the birth perents consent

So LT is going on towards the age of 12. So if she did not want to be adopted, could this have caused disharmony in the family leading to an AVO I wonder.
Merely speculation of course.

 

[winterberry]

My biological parents were killed in a car crash when I was one year old. My three year old sister and I were adopted and sent to Australia. I recall nothing but my sister very vaguely remembers the plane flight and a lot of fuss. It seems to me that LT may well have recollection of what happened whe WT disappeared.

I can remember so much from 3&4 years of age, but I forget where my car keys are daily!
IMO it's very likely that LT will remember that day.

 

[drsleuth]

There is no way I make a claim to be a long term member. The information re frequency of children's personal connection visits with their bio parents may have been discussed by the bio mother in a televised interview? IMO

Were these visits at ffc home or in some other place?

Some other place , local park or play centre from memory

 

[SLouTh]

Some other place , local park or play centre from memory

Chipmunks Play Center


The last time the birth mother and father saw William was on August 21, 2014 at the the Chipmunks Playland at the Macquarie Centre in North Sydney, from 10am until midday.

William Tyrrell: Inside privileged life of foster mother, why she hates Spiderman photo | Daily Mail Online

 

[Sprockett7701]

@SouthAussie

Quote
William’s story starts 10 years ago, when his father met a girl. In 2010, they had a daughter. Three months later, that child — a girl called Lindsay in court documents — was taken into state care. What was the issue?

Violence. It wasn’t directed at the child. Lindsay’s mother went to a party. It got out of hand. Police got called. She spat at police. She was aggressive. She has mental health problems, and is addicted to drugs. She lashed out, in a way that made officers feel unsafe.

They decided Lindsay was “at risk of harm” — that’s a formal categorisation — and handed her to the NSW Department of Family and Community Services ...........

End quote

Thanks for the link. To me it seems unusual that a wanted child who was exposed to psychological harm stayed in care long term imo. It's technically hard to prove even though it's obviously not good for the child.

Even the way the first child was taken presumably while at home being babysat while the mother was out. That one incident isn't enough to remove a child. There must be more to it. imo.

@winterberry

I find it's often a statement of fact that people have addiction issues and mental health issues. The stigma around them makes it sound pejorative. Many people with similar issues are good hearted and are able to gather the strength to address their issues. They're often vulnerable people themselves. I believe the b mother has owned her past publically now imo? She is obviously stable enough now and has her other kids in her care imo.

I really find it very unusual her kids weren't returned to her.

This would depend on decisions already made by family court. If the children were already on 18 year orders bio mums chance of having them returned would be slim.
She may not have had further chn removed because she has cleaned up her act, but doesn’t automatically equate to getting earlier chn back.

All IMO

 

[SLouTh]

This would depend on decisions already made by family court. If the children were already on 18 year orders bio mums chance of having them returned would be slim.
She may not have had further chn removed because she has cleaned up her act, but doesn’t automatically equate to getting earlier chn back.

All IMO

Yes agree ....

William was deemed a long term placement in the care of the FACS Minister in April 2013.

William Tyrrell: Inside privileged life of foster mother, why she hates Spiderman photo | Daily Mail Online

 

[Jaded325594]

Yes agree ....

William was deemed a long term placement in the care of the FACS Minister in April 2013.

William Tyrrell: Inside privileged life of foster mother, why she hates Spiderman photo | Daily Mail Online

I think everyone understands this, the question is why a long term placement after such a short time in care (comparatively speaking to other cases) when he was taken into care over something relatively minor, (the children were not abused) from a very young mum who had capacity to change (end relationship) and appeared to remain invested in her children (showing up to contact - there are parents that don't bother). What support was provided to BM (a young mum herself being abused) to enable the family to stay together? Housing? Relocation? I have seen my state go to great lengths to assist reunification.

From what has been published, it is an unusual case and FACS has questions to answer.

If William was taken at birth from a 30 year old addict who already had 5 kids removed, misses contact and shows limited ability to change - understandable.

Although out-of-home care may be beneficial for children who are unsafe living with their families of origin, it is generally viewed as an intervention of last resort, and there is a preference for children to be reunited with their birth parents wherever possible. From -
National framework for protecting Australia's children indicators, 0.2 Out-of-home care - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare

 

[interested64]

I think the FM is more than capable of thinking on her feet, she was able to pull together and quickly organise to go to the FGM'S as a 'last minute' change of plan.

11 September, 2014:

2.50pm: On a last minute change of plan, the foster mother and father leave their Sydney home, drop their cats at kennels.

4pm: The foster parents collect William and his sister from childcare and start the drive up to Kendall one day earlier than planned, via the F3, stopping en route at Caltex, Wyong and then, at 6.35pm, Raymond Terrace McDonalds.

William Tyrrell’s doomed life

They were going anyway..it's not hard to change and sort..some people are just good at organizing.. means nothing

 

[interested64]

They can of course, but at what cost to those they implicate if Police are wrong? Millions of dollars it would seem



I considered a deathbed confession too. Also wondered if they were floating the idea of a balcony accident to give the perpetrator an ‘out’ so to speak.

It could relate to a post in here that was posted of the fgm statement and she used the words patio and balcony..I don't have the link and can't remember who posted link