Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sep 2014 - #67

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Here is the context for the 'lil devil' comment:

When he fell quiet and the foster mother could not find him she told her mother, “I can’t see William” and her mother replied, “Oh, the little devil”.

She worried because “William is only quiet usually when he is sick … if he was distressed … he will cry, scream out” and “William doesn’t stray”.



My 92 year old mother says 'lil devil' in an endearing way, when speaking about her 5 yr old great grand son. She said that verbatim when he tried to sneak some extra cookie from the counter BEFORE we ate dinner... She laughed and said to my SIL, " He didnt know I saw that, the lil Devil.'

I really don't think my mother meant anything derogatory by saying that---it is an old saying about young children, used often as a descriptive way of saying they are impulsive...

Here is the 2nd statement:

At the end of day one, the foster mother came off the stand and was embraced by the foster father in court, but continued her testimony into day two.

She told the court Nanna had thought William too “hyperactive, boisterous” in his play immediately before he vanished.

When the foster father returned from nearby Lakewood and the Kendall shops, and was told about William, he “bolted … running for William and I didn’t see him for ages after that”.



Is that really speaking negatively about the child? The FGM was about 80 years old? Don't most 80 yr olds describe 3 yr old boys as seeming to be boisterous and hyper? My grandmother thought my son was when he was 3. I remember going to a County Fair with her and my 3 yr old and she kept wanting him to sit down with us and was nervous about seeing him running about and wanting to touch everything....I don't think that is unusual behaviour for the 3 yr old OR the 80 yr old. JMO

CS's parents were heavily criticised by the public because one or both described her as lazy, there were many loving things said in their descriptions of CS, but when the public is focused with hate and disgust, they choose the word they most likely have said many times themselves, but give it a sinister meaning when a child is missing. jmo
 
The following case occurred a couple of months after WT disappeared, I think it's an interesting comparison to WT's case. Same coroner. I have family who are locals to the site where she went missing an d said there were helicopters overhead and search dogs through the area for days.
Storms heighten concerns for missing Sydney woman, 84
https://coroners.nsw.gov.au/documents/findings/2020/Coote_2_Findings.pdf

So, the dogs must have totally missed Gaida's scent. Her remains were found over 3 years later, by bushwalkers, in the same park where she had gone missing.

(Cause of death unable to be determined. But the Coroner thought there was no suicide and no foul play that she could see.)
 
So, the dogs must have totally missed Gaida's scent. Her remains were found over 3 years later, by bushwalkers, in the same park where she had gone missing.

(Cause of death unable to be determined. But the Coroner thought there was no suicide and no foul play that she could see.)
yes... NSW Police Force
 
CS's parents were heavily criticised by the public because one or both described her as lazy, there were many loving things said in their descriptions of CS, but when the public is focused with hate and disgust, they choose the word they most likely have said many times themselves, but give it a sinister meaning when a child is missing. jmo

In my opinion, words chosen can also indicate subtle victim blaming.

"At its core, victim blaming could stem from a combination of failure to empathize with victims and a fear reaction triggered by the human drive for self-preservation."

"No matter what we want to believe, the world is not a just place. And it takes some difficult cognitive work to accept both that bad things sometimes happen to good people, and that seemingly normal people sometimes do bad things."

The Psychology of Victim :Blaming

"In order to discredit a victim, an abuser will often blame the victim for their own actions,..."

What is Blame-Shifting? Escaping responsibility
 
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Chris Watts killed his wife by strangling her in their bed. He loaded her and the faeces stained sheets into his pick up, went back and got his daughters and cadaver dogs did not pick up a scent in the house or in his vehicle.
I don't think that they are infallible.


I think it's important to recognize and distinguish between cadaver dogs and tracking dogs, as both are trained and used for different purposes. Cadaver dogs are used to detect human remains. Tracking dogs are used to track the scent of a person along a route.

As I understand it, both types of dogs were used in the initial search for WT, presumably starting with trackers and, as I understand it, the trackers were not able to find WT's scent past the property's boundaries.
 
William Tyrrell's foster grandmother's police statement to inquest revealed | Daily Mail Online

"'I can't think of anyone who would want to harm William,' she told police in the statement, dated two days after the boy disappeared."

It's my opinion, based on the above statement, the FGM believed William may had been 'harmed'. She stated this within 2 days of William's disappearance. What led her to her belief?

This belief excludes the many other possibilities for William's disappearance, including wandering off & accidental injury.

In my opinion, I find it strange that she states the above but also discussed her neighbour with Police. This person was "someone" she did think of.

She also states "I can't think of anyone" rather than "I don't know of anyone". In my opinion, given her choice of words, the FGM is only advising us, at that point in time, she couldn't "think of anyone", not that she didn't necessarily know of anyone who would want to harm William.

All IMHO.


Reading on.... It sounds as though her statement was prompted by a conversation FGM had with local police officer Wendy Hudson. Initially she was probably asked 'can you think of anyone who would want to harm William?'

From your link....

'I can't think of anyone who would want to harm William,' she told police in the statement, dated two days after the boy disappeared.

I was asked this question initially by Wendy Hudson (a police woman who lives in Kendall) and I suggested Peter across the road, (as he keeps odd hours and lives alone),' the inquest document said.

'Wendy assures me she has checked him out thoroughly.'

William Tyrrell's foster grandmother's police statement to inquest revealed | Daily Mail Online
 
Can anyone help please ????? And do I have this correct???

I am trying to remember the Inquest dates of the various tranches .....

There was a Directions Hearing - December 19, 2018.

Tranche 1

Sydney
March 25 - March 28, 2019
4 days duration .....

Tranche 2
Sydney
August 7, 2019 - ???
Can anyone remember how many days this Tranche was please???



Did the Inquest head to Taree twice????
As these are the dates I have found????

Tranche 3
Taree

August 19, 2019 - ????

Tranche 4
Taree

Start date ????
Finished early on a Wednesday March 2020, but not sure of the date???


Tranche 5
Sydney
What date did the final sitting start please??

Concluded on October 8, 2020

Greatly appreciated if you can help me ..... TIA ....
 
Here is the context for the 'lil devil' comment:

When he fell quiet and the foster mother could not find him she told her mother, “I can’t see William” and her mother replied, “Oh, the little devil”.

She worried because “William is only quiet usually when he is sick … if he was distressed … he will cry, scream out” and “William doesn’t stray”.



My 92 year old mother says 'lil devil' in an endearing way, when speaking about her 5 yr old great grand son. She said that verbatim when he tried to sneak some extra cookie from the counter BEFORE we ate dinner... She laughed and said to my SIL, " He didnt know I saw that, the lil Devil.'

I really don't think my mother meant anything derogatory by saying that---it is an old saying about young children, used often as a descriptive way of saying they are impulsive...

Here is the 2nd statement:

At the end of day one, the foster mother came off the stand and was embraced by the foster father in court, but continued her testimony into day two.

She told the court Nanna had thought William too “hyperactive, boisterous” in his play immediately before he vanished.

When the foster father returned from nearby Lakewood and the Kendall shops, and was told about William, he “bolted … running for William and I didn’t see him for ages after that”.



Is that really speaking negatively about the child? The FGM was about 80 years old? Don't most 80 yr olds describe 3 yr old boys as seeming to be boisterous and hyper? My grandmother thought my son was when he was 3. I remember going to a County Fair with her and my 3 yr old and she kept wanting him to sit down with us and was nervous about seeing him running about and wanting to touch everything....I don't think that is unusual behaviour for the 3 yr old OR the 80 yr old. JMO

I’ve heard parents calling their children ‘lil sh*its’, ‘lil ankle biters’ among other things. :eek:
 
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You are correct Katy, the sniffer dogs were brought in to search not long after he went missing

Three-year-old boy goes missing from front yard in Kendall on NSW Mid North Coast
  • The Daily Telegraph
  • September 12, 2014 12:55PM
  • William Tyrell, 3, missing from Kendall since 10.30am
  • Caucasian appearance, dark hair and hazel eyes
  • Last seen in the front yard of his Kendall home
  • Believed to be wearing a Spider-man suit
A desperate search is underway for a three-year-old Sydney boy wearing a Spider-Man suit who has gone mising from a home on the NSW mid north coast.
The boy vanished from the front yard of a relative’s home in Benaroon Drive, Kendall just after 10.30am.

Polair, the NSW dog squad, the local State emergency services and scores of local police have converged on the remote property surrounded by bushland.

Police have established a mobile command outside the property where he is missing from about 35km south of Port Macquarie.

The boy was last seen playing in his costume in the front yard.
Police have been inundated with support from locals who want to join the search.

more than 50 officers from the Mid North Coast Local Area Command, SES units from Port Macquarie, Wauchope and the Camden Haven, the Dog Squad and concerned residents have established a search grid in nearby scrub.

The home is not far from the Kendall State Forest.

Police described the boy as being Caucasian with dark hair and hazel eyes.

Police have asked the public to remain clear of the area so the search team can conduct a thorough sweep of the area.
PolAir is expected to arrive this afternoon.

Anyone with information about his location has been urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000 or visit the Crime Stoppers online reporting page.

hi BlueClues, hope you’re well. I don’t think the ‘dogs’ came in until a few days after William’s disappearance. Am trying to find more specific, but there’s this article from 16 September 2014: UPDATE: STRIKE FORCE SET UP AS SNIFFER DOGS FAIL TO PICK UP SCENT OF WILLIAM TYRELL | NBN News

"Superintendent Paul Fehon says neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home"
 
hi BlueClues, hope you’re well. I don’t think the ‘dogs’ came in until a few days after William’s disappearance. Am trying to find more specific, but there’s this article from 16 September 2014: UPDATE: STRIKE FORCE SET UP AS SNIFFER DOGS FAIL TO PICK UP SCENT OF WILLIAM TYRELL | NBN News

"Superintendent Paul Fehon says neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home"

Thanks Warsh, same to you. When you get further on in the thread you'll see I've posted links of the dog handlers evidence at the inquest. The scent trail/sniffer dog was there within hours and the cadaver dog was a couple of days later IIRC.
 
hi BlueClues, hope you’re well. I don’t think the ‘dogs’ came in until a few days after William’s disappearance. Am trying to find more specific, but there’s this article from 16 September 2014: UPDATE: STRIKE FORCE SET UP AS SNIFFER DOGS FAIL TO PICK UP SCENT OF WILLIAM TYRELL | NBN News

"Superintendent Paul Fehon says neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home"


Police from Mid North Coast Local Area Command have coordinated a major search of the area, involving SES volunteers, RFS volunteers, members of the local surf lifesaving cub, police dog squad, mounted police and officers on trail bikes.

Sep. 13, 2014, 10:54 AM

Police Step Up Search For Missing Boy On NSW Mid North Coast
 
Thanks Warsh, same to you. When you get further on in the thread you'll see I've posted links of the dog handlers evidence at the inquest. The scent trail/sniffer dog was there within hours and the cadaver dog was a couple of days later IIRC.
Agree Blues ... and also on CO's podcast she talks about PD Guv, the first Police Dog on the scene that day ...
IIRC IMO
 
hi BlueClues, hope you’re well. I don’t think the ‘dogs’ came in until a few days after William’s disappearance. Am trying to find more specific, but there’s this article from 16 September 2014: UPDATE: STRIKE FORCE SET UP AS SNIFFER DOGS FAIL TO PICK UP SCENT OF WILLIAM TYRELL | NBN News

"Superintendent Paul Fehon says neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home"
Warsh, absolutely no offense, and with all due respect, the first dog definitely arrived on the 12th ....

A police dog handler said he found tracking William Tyrrell was “impossible” on the day the three-year-old vanished because it took two hours for him and his dog to reach the scene.

The dog named Gov also became riddled with ticks and was exhausted because of the density of bushland where William vanished.

A statement of Senior Constable Matthew Gates was tendered today in a directions hearing into the 2014 disappearance of William from outside his foster grandmother’s home in Kendall, on the NSW mid-north coast.

“Upon my arrival on the 12th of September, 2014, I assessed the area and found that tracking was impossible. This is due to the amount of time that had passed between William Tyrrell going missing and the time it took for me to travel to Kendall,” Sen-Const Gates wrote in his statement in February this year.

“I believe this to be approximately two hours.”

William Tyrrell inquest: Police dog handler says search impossible | Daily Telegraph
 
Does the 2nd photo have dates it was taken? I’m
Not from that area of NSW but I’d imagine that open eucalypt/semi evergreen rainforest in that area would dry out in the summer months, the 2nd pic looks like from a drought year…maybe the same year as the bad fires?
The first pic is probably from winter months when those grass species have set seed and have moisture to grow and set seed again, and the understory thickens up with available moisture
 
Here is the context for the 'lil devil' comment:

When he fell quiet and the foster mother could not find him she told her mother, “I can’t see William” and her mother replied, “Oh, the little devil”.

She worried because “William is only quiet usually when he is sick … if he was distressed … he will cry, scream out” and “William doesn’t stray”.



My 92 year old mother says 'lil devil' in an endearing way, when speaking about her 5 yr old great grand son. She said that verbatim when he tried to sneak some extra cookie from the counter BEFORE we ate dinner... She laughed and said to my SIL, " He didnt know I saw that, the lil Devil.'

I really don't think my mother meant anything derogatory by saying that---it is an old saying about young children, used often as a descriptive way of saying they are impulsive...

Here is the 2nd statement:

At the end of day one, the foster mother came off the stand and was embraced by the foster father in court, but continued her testimony into day two.

She told the court Nanna had thought William too “hyperactive, boisterous” in his play immediately before he vanished.

When the foster father returned from nearby Lakewood and the Kendall shops, and was told about William, he “bolted … running for William and I didn’t see him for ages after that”.



Is that really speaking negatively about the child? The FGM was about 80 years old? Don't most 80 yr olds describe 3 yr old boys as seeming to be boisterous and hyper? My grandmother thought my son was when he was 3. I remember going to a County Fair with her and my 3 yr old and she kept wanting him to sit down with us and was nervous about seeing him running about and wanting to touch everything....I don't think that is unusual behaviour for the 3 yr old OR the 80 yr old. JMO


I agree with you Kateydid23
My Grandparents called us Little Devils, as children, or when we got caught climbing/ jumping off the water tank getting into the wheat bins they would say " You little Buggers" before you get too shocked SillyBilly ,Mods and everyone " The Bugger Word in Australia is a expression of "Oh Bloody Hell" Moment or Darn it.
They have done here a Toyata car advertisment few years ago, ute takes off sprays mud on the washing hanging on the line, woman looks at it says: Bugger"
It not meant as a negative speaking.
My Understanding partner gives me a cheeky pat, I called him a "Cheeky Devil or Cheeky Bugger, or Bugger you and the horse you rode on.
I hope no one needs smelling salts, but I not insulting my partner but flirting with him.
Yes, I admit I have called them, Little Devils, Evil Overlords but it is when talking to a friends about some of the mischief/ situations they out up to, we laugh.
In Australia we use the words Bart**Ds and Bi****s as affection and insult. It is the way you express it.

I remember in 1960's or 1970's there was a comic called Little Devil, he tried to do the right thing always got into Mischief or a situation. I guessing when it came out because my Grandparents had a couple of Little Devil comics in their house which was in the 1970's
William playing may have been over the top, according Foster Grandmother, she was tired, just got out hospital and elderly but she still loved him very much, hence little Devil.
As my Grandparents did with my siblings and I, even though we were taken away from them, they never stopped loving us, being Little Devils in mischief but through those years parted from them, I could feel their love to guide me back to them when I finished being a State Ward.
Foster Grandmother praying till the day she died for news of William, he never came home.
 
My dad called me much worse a few times but I was being a little prick too! :p
As you said, context is an important thing. In this day and age of PC and telling jokes etc, I think context is being forgotten. Have to really watch what you say these days, especially if you’re taking the Mickey out of someone.
 
That is an awfully big reach for DM to have written that "A NSW Police source said officers believe an object may have been thrown from the vehicle as it was driven along Batar Road at Kendall", if there wasn't actually a [police] source that said that. In that article I quoted from in the link above, they are speaking directly about FGM's vehicle, and at the time when it was 'allegedly' driven by FM, and in a specific area where she had driven. At the time years ago when police were said to be searching 48 sq km of forest for something discarded, it seems random, like they didn't know 'where' this item was thrown from or to, nor by whom, nor by a specific vehicle. I do remember the historical posts trying to determine what had been thrown, or what had fallen off of a vehicle, etc.

ETA: edit to add.. if something is said in only one publication/reporter which claims they had a police source, it is conceivable that the DT/reporter did have a police source, which possibly other newspapers did not have. imo.

I still wonder How They Know Something may have been thrown from a vehicle.
I was puzzled by this ‘way back’ when we were trying to work out what the ‘something’ was & from what vehicle etc.
IMO, there’s a lot of information that the investigators have ( very relevant or otherwise), that we, the Public, are not privy to.

Personally, I’m of the belief that there was new information provided by someone, and that’s what halted the inquest so abruptly. IMO the Coroner is very much at the forefront of all this.
Ch 10 had to hand over information: Coroner demands Channel Ten hand over information from its William Tyrrell podcast | Daily Mail Online


https://www.innerwestreview.com.au/story/7511838/every-option-probed-in-tyrrell-search/?cs=9676


Latest search at Kendall: Latest News - NSW Police Public Site

and on Jan 6 :
A NSW Police spokeswoman said: “Strike Force Rosann detectives are continuing to conduct interviews and other investigative activity, including those under coronial orders, as well as reviewing all material with the assistance of various experts.”

State Crime Command director Detective Chief Superintendent Darren Bennett said in November, mid-search, that Strike Force Rosann was “very happy with the items we’ve found in terms of their relevance to the investigation”.

Tyrrell witness interviews continue

 
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