Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #69

[Travelling Wilbury]

I don't know. They could have avoided the tennis club CCTV if they used Albert Street, but there was other CCTV in Kendall.

I remember the bottle shop owner was quickly told to hold her CCTV, and maybe others.

Thanks for the info

Did the bottlo have any worthwhile footage that caught any vehicles relevant to the investigation and timelines?

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks for the info

Did the bottlo have any worthwhile footage that caught any vehicles relevant to the investigation and timelines?

IIRC all we know is this ....

(Day One) At Kendall Cellars, shop owner Rheannon Chapman was told not to delete anything from her CCTV.
https://www.news.com.au/national/co...d/news-story/c3b76e8d4fc18401ebc17df61f45a62d


(Six weeks later) "I can't say I look at any locals differently, but I guess you never know," Kendall Cellars owner Rheannon Chapman says.

"There is that fear that you never know. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors?
"Until we know. It is the unknown.

"I change every day. Some days I think he has been taken and others I think we have just missed him in the bush somewhere. That bush is a big place.
"Although we spent hundreds of man hours out there, it is still a big place."
Missing William Tyrell casts dark shadow over town

 

[KateM]

His work was always professional, thorough and gained a lot of respect. The series that was shown last year on his cases were excellent

Yes, that series on him was excellent. Ron Iddles even gained the respect of the criminals.

 

[SleepyJoe]

I think it’s well evidenced /documented that our DEPT of (whatever it’s now called - Family Services, Children’s Services ) operates in a system that lacks so much of what one would expect under the term ‘Services’.

Having said that, I’m not sure of the full time care situation of William’s brothers, altho Mum is certainly involved.

I don’t dispute that there are times where, as a society, we need to step in to support the care of our children. In so doing, we should also be focused on rehabilitation & the goal of reunification.

However, IMO, that ‘support & care’ is often lacking; staff are broken & burned out & the fate of far too many children in ‘supposed care’ has resulted in death.

With an election looming, this would be a great pro bono cause for Insight Communications - lead a lobby for an examination of this DEPT ( then we can move to Health)
Let’s look at the Books
Let’s work out Why the Feet that are Needed on the Ground, can’t be provided
Let’s examine what’s skimmed off, that can be mixed in

I’m appalled to see the decline in our society & why we don’t prioritise Tax $ toward a functioning family. That would remove so many $ $ needed to support Drug policing, drug / mental health hospitalisation,
Unemployment, Child Services, crime policing, jail support ...

I love this post and wholeheartedly agree.

 

[SleepyJoe]

The average weight for a 3 Year Old Male Child in Australia is:

3 Years - 12.4 – 16.5 kgs

I think you will find that William would have fit that criteria.

How Much Should A Toddler Weigh? °°º º°° | Wriggly Toes
Reference Royal Children's Hospital About Child Growth : Growth charts (rch.org.au)

I think it is almost impossible to estimate the weight of a child by looking at a photo of him in loose long-sleeves and long-legged pants (as William is in the photograph), however I can say that looking at the photos esp the one of his face, he appears to be underweight (although of course I can't say this with any certainty unless I weighed and examined him). I have a son with a medical condition that causes him to be very underweight. In loose clothes he looks OK, but when his clothes are off it is shocking how skinny he is (under the 5th centile in weight and 50th centile in height). Similar to my son, William to me looks underweight in the photos. A healthy 3yo should be a bit "chubbier" in my professional opinion. I have spent significant time in a paediatric hospital (which is compulsory during training) and, while my practice is primarily adults now, I still anaesthetise healthy children regularly for simple procedures. My comment about his weight is nothing to do with respect for William but a comment as to his medical condition at the time and the adequacy of his nutrition. We can have differing opinions and that's fine, but I am giving mine and I stand by it, as I also stand by my statement that you can't estimate a children's weight when in loose clothing which hides their limbs. Although I am not familiar with FACS procedures, my opinion is that I seriously doubt that FACS would regularly weigh both children - that would be done by their medical practitioners at check-ups/ vaccination appointments as FACS/NGO case workers are not medically trained.

 

[Awakening]

My opinion is that I think Mr Chapman was mistaken.

But sometimes I find it helpful to play out a theory to see how likely it is.

In terms of memory, I tend to take the first recall as the most accurate.

So assuming Chapman was correct and assuming this was WT:

1. How did they get William from Benaroon
2. Who are these people
3. Where did they go
4. Why did they go down Laurel St
5. Why did they take William

I'm going to need a second coffee and to read Chapman's account again before I tackle this one!

 

[Awakening]

I think it is almost impossible to estimate the weight of a child by looking at a photo of him in loose long-sleeves and long-legged pants (as William is in the photograph), however I can say that looking at the photos esp the one of his face, he appears to be underweight (although of course I can't say this with any certainty unless I weighed and examined him). I have a son with a medical condition that causes him to be very underweight. In loose clothes he looks OK, but when his clothes are off it is shocking how skinny he is (under the 5th centile in weight and 50th centile in height). Similar to my son, William to me looks underweight in the photos. A healthy 3yo should be a bit "chubbier" in my professional opinion. I have spent significant time in a paediatric hospital (which is compulsory during training) and, while my practice is primarily adults now, I still anaesthetise healthy children regularly for simple procedures. My comment about his weight is nothing to do with respect for William but a comment as to his medical condition at the time and the adequacy of his nutrition. We can have differing opinions and that's fine, but I am giving mine and I stand by it, as I also stand by my statement that you can't estimate a children's weight when in loose clothing which hides their limbs. Although I am not familiar with FACS procedures, my opinion is that I seriously doubt that FACS would regularly weigh both children - that would be done by their medical practitioners at check-ups/ vaccination appointments as FACS/NGO case workers are not medically trained.

I've seen a theory that WT overdosed on FGM's medication.

How likely do you think this is? Ingesting over the counter or prescription meds.

I was once told that kids don't tend to overdose on tablets because they only have to chew one to realise they taste terrible and are likely to spit it out and not eat anymore.

I imagine illicit drugs are different?

 

[katydid23]

IMO, that needs to be taken ‘with a grain of salt’ or in a different context - otherwise it’d be a case of 1) useless sniffer dogs or 2) a totally different investigation focused on William never getting out of the car on the night of family arrival at FFGM’s.

What about the pictures of him playing on the back deck?

 

[SleepyJoe]

I've seen a theory that WT overdosed on FGM's medication.

How likely do you think this is? Ingesting over the counter or prescription meds.

I was once told that kids don't tend to overdose on tablets because they only have to chew one to realise they taste terrible and are likely to spit it out and not eat anymore.

I imagine illicit drugs are different?

I think this scenario is unlikely. Oral poisonings are usually slow events (ie it takes hours for medication to be absorbed, reach the bloodstream and cause effects). If we are to believe any of the timeline of the former foster carers that morning, then William's "disappearance" and likely demise must have been a fairly sudden event. JMO.

 

[Lemony]

His work was always professional, thorough and gained a lot of respect. The series that was shown last year on his cases were excellent

I attended one of Jubelin’s ‘I Catch Killers’ live shows last month, and interestingly during the show Gary stated that Ron Iddles was one of the first people to reach out to him after Mick Fuller’s remarks in the media. They could be mates I guess, whatever the case he obviously has respect for Jubelin and wanted to show support.

 

[katydid23]

I appreciate your thoughtful reply and agree!


the meat and potatoes of it is this...
'Lindsay' is most likely in another foster home.

While....her mother and little brothers are homed together.
Her mother has stated she wants her daughter.

The question remains...as overly 'simplistic' as it seems .....
If the department can not see it fit for lindsay to live with her mother.....why are those boys??

It really is black and white. She is fit to care for children or she isn't.

moo

I don't think the decision is as 'black and white' as you are making it out to be.

Here is an example, from a situation I saw play out over some years. A couple had a daughter together, but they were both drinking and using, and there were domestic violence incidents between them by both sides. The child was put into state care.

A year or so later, Mom finished her parenting classes, rehab, and was given custody again. However, there was still a lot of chaos because the father kept coming back in and out and there were more DV incidents and she had a DUI.

So the child was returned to state care, back to same family she had been with from age 1 to 2 and a half.

A few years later, Mom sobered up, married a stable working man and they had two little boys. CPS was watching but she was doing fine and so her sons stayed with her.

Mom now wanted her daughter to be returned to her. But her daughter was now 8 years old, been in the same family for years and was very close to her younger siblings and grandparents. She did not want to go back and live with her birth family, even though she had visits with them over the years.

I think, by your 'black and white' version , this child should be forced to be returned to her bio mom, in spite of her entire childhood being surrounded by another family environment.

I think the child's desires should be taken into account, JMO

 

[they'll get you]

Its really hard to take seriously a man who took 1000 days to come forward with such 'important' information.

Its not like this was a big city and the story just kinda got lost in the crime of the next day.


Even when he did come forward......after a few beers at the local to a LE relative to PASS IT ON.

Come on now.
Doesnt pass my sniff test.

moo
William Tyrrell inquest: Man claims to have spotted boy wearing Spiderman suit on day he vanished | Daily Mail Online

Mr Chapman said he knew William’s foster grandmother, who was at the house on Benaroon Drive when William went missing, “but I didn’t get on very well with her”.

The Australian understands they had an argument many years ago about the correct propagation of flowers, but that wasn’t why Mr Chapman didn’t approach police.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...r/news-story/a3024e2b5c7c75f1607711ce2a41969f

 

[they'll get you]

“Do you think in fact you saw William Tyrrell?” counsel assisting, Gerard Craddock, asked.

“I do, yes,” Mr Chapman replied.

William’s family was then dealt a second blow when the inquest was suddenly — without explanation — adjourned for seven months. It is unclear whether that decision was taken to allow further investigations into Mr Chapman’s claims.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...r/news-story/a3024e2b5c7c75f1607711ce2a41969f

 

[they'll get you]

William’s grandmother, who cannot be named, wept as she listened to Mr Chapman, who is now 80, try to explain why he didn’t immediately tell police what he had seen.

He didn’t know about William being missing until later that night, when he heard a detective on the news say they planned to interview everyone who lived in a 1km radius of Benaroon Drive, where William disappeared.

He waited patiently for them to knock on the door, but police were in fact focused on searching for William, scouring dams and fighting their way through thick lantana. It would be weeks, months, even years before they got around to interviewing neighbours. “I was waiting for a knock on the door,” Mr Chapman said.

When nobody came after several weeks, he decided to try to find Kendall police officer Wendy Hudson, who he had known “since she was a babe in arms”, at the social club on a Friday night. He found her sister-in-law, Allison, instead, and asked her to pass on a message: he’d seen William in the back of a fast-moving car.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...r/news-story/a3024e2b5c7c75f1607711ce2a41969f

 

[Mauig’ma]

Thank you for that information. Much appreciated.

Very interesting Ty

 

[k-mac]

I don't think the decision is as 'black and white' as you are making it out to be.

Here is an example, from a situation I saw play out over some years. A couple had a daughter together, but they were both drinking and using, and there were domestic violence incidents between them by both sides. The child was put into state care.

A year or so later, Mom finished her parenting classes, rehab, and was given custody again. However, there was still a lot of chaos because the father kept coming back in and out and there were more DV incidents and she had a DUI.

So the child was returned to state care, back to same family she had been with from age 1 to 2 and a half.

A few years later, Mom sobered up, married a stable working man and they had two little boys. CPS was watching but she was doing fine and so her sons stayed with her.

Mom now wanted her daughter to be returned to her. But her daughter was now 8 years old, been in the same family for years and was very close to her younger siblings and grandparents. She did not want to go back and live with her birth family, even though she had visits with them over the years.

I think, by your 'black and white' version , this child should be forced to be returned to her bio mom, in spite of her entire childhood being surrounded by another family environment.

I think the child's desires should be taken into account, JMO

with due respect....
your scenario doesn't relate to this one.

That child you refer is in a stable enviroment and by choice she wants to stay in her new enviroment. Ofcourse nobody is going to change a happy childs dynamic.

L/S (WILLIAMS SISTER) has been removed from an unstable foster home where her carers have been charged with assulting her, stalking and intimidating her.

Doesnt sound like L/S (WILLIAM SISTER) wants these people in her life.
Sounds like a very scary predicament to me.

So....the question remains....and it is very black and white to me.....
if BM is deemed fit to care for her little brothers why isn't she fit to care for her daughter?

If L/S (WILLIAMS SISTER) is now in yet another new enviroment?? more unstability....

<modsnip>
moo

 

[they'll get you]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...r/news-story/a3024e2b5c7c75f1607711ce2a41969f

 

[Travelling Wilbury]

I attended one of Jubelin’s ‘I Catch Killers’ live shows last month, and interestingly during the show Gary stated that Ron Iddles was one of the first people to reach out to him after Mick Fuller’s remarks in the media. They could be mates I guess, whatever the case he obviously has respect for Jubelin and wanted to show support.

Which is very good, the sign of not only a good colleague but a good person too

 

[SouthAussie]

with due respect....
your scenario doesn't relate to this one.

That child you refer is in a stable enviroment and by choice she wants to stay in her new enviroment. Ofcourse nobody is going to change a happy childs dynamic.

L/S (WILLIAMS SISTER) has been removed from an unstable foster home where her carers have been charged with assulting her, stalking and intimidating her.

Doesnt sound like L/S (WILLIAM SISTER) wants these people in her life.
Sounds like a very scary predicament to me.

So....the question remains....and it is very black and white to me.....
if BM is deemed fit to care for her little brothers why isn't she fit to care for her daughter?

If L/S (WILLIAMS SISTER) is now in yet another new enviroment?? more unstability....

****My wild speculation**** is L/S does indeed want a relationship with her BIO family and THAT is at the heart of the very disturbing ugly turn of events we have seen this last year.

moo

This doesn't directly answer your question, but you might be interested in the article (if you haven't seen it before).

It seems that children in the care of the minister till 18 can be restored to their parent(s) if an application is filed (before any restoration efforts take place by any case managers), and the Childrens Court approves it and makes (another) final order.

Presumably, there is criteria that must be met for this to happen. And I guess that criteria is what you want to see.

There are stories within the link where the case managers have made restoration efforts prior to submitting an application to the Childrens Court, and the children have been taken away from their parent(s) again as they were unauthorised carers.

Restoration: Cautionary Tales From the Children’s Court of NSW - Association of Children's Welfare Agencies Limited

 

[Travelling Wilbury]

My opinion is that I think Mr Chapman was mistaken.

But sometimes I find it helpful to play out a theory to see how likely it is.

In terms of memory, I tend to take the first recall as the most accurate.

So assuming Chapman was correct and assuming this was WT:

1. How did they get William from Benaroon
2. Who are these people
3. Where did they go
4. Why did they go down Laurel St
5. Why did they take William

I'm going to need a second coffee and to read Chapman's account again before I tackle this one!

Whilst LE have said in the media that everyone is under scrutiny, IMO I think if Chapman’s version of events were gaining traction we would hear more of it atm, not like it is now going steaming ahead towards the FFC’s.
I think LE have a definite theory of a result and perhaps some good initial evidence, which requires further evidence to back up in court in front of no doubt very expensive lawyers IMO.