Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #75

[kiwi50]

To me, it doesn't matter who saw her driving on Batar Creek Road. If FM was not seen outside the vehicle, if she was not seen walking back dirty and disheveled from a speedy burial, if she was not seen carrying a bundle into the bush ....

The article I referenced said she was seen driving on Batar Creek Road.

Or carrying a spade, I just cant believe she would have been calm enough to take him down the road, carry him into the bush and bury him deeply enough that he was gone forever, go back home and convince her mother and husband that she knew nothing, and have her best friend appear on National TV appealing for William’s return, and then carry on begging for the police to keep investigating for the next nine or so years.

 

[JLZ]

[NSW] CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 81C

Misconduct with regard to corpses

81C Misconduct with regard to corpses
Any person who--

(a) indecently interferes with any dead human body, or
(b) improperly interferes with, or offers any indignity to, any dead human body or human remains (whether buried or not),

shall be liable to imprisonment for two years.

(How I see it...)

Defence: Your honor, the prosecution has presented no dead human body (buried or otherwise), nor any human remains.

Judge: Then why are we here?

People do get convicted of manslaughter and murder when a body has not been found. So why not for interfering with a corpse?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Once again, I really have to wonder if the leak is at the ODPP end. As I said earlier, maybe someone there thinks the proposed charges are just bizarre -- as do I, especially in relation to a corpse which AFAIK has not been found.

Could be the DPP end yes. Whoever leaked it would have had to prove it to the press for publishing.

 

[LolaAngelina]

I don't think they're bizzare. It makes sense that if they don't have enough to charge her with his murder or manslaughter, but yet they still have evidence that she moved his body, the charges make complete sense.

Without a body (especially if it's been relocated several times) a conviction of manslaughter or murder is very difficult.

I doubt they'd be pushing for charges of tempering with a corpse and obstruction of justice if their evidence wasn't tight. MOO.

BBM That’s the whole point of handing this to the DPP. They are asking their advice on whether there is enough to charge. If their evidence was tight they would be making the arrest themselves.

 

[katydid23]

People do get convicted of manslaughter and murder when a body has not been found. So why not for interfering with a corpse?

Yes, when there is evidence of a murder. And to do so, they need a crime scene and some forensic evidence proving there was a murder. And some circumstantial evidence which shows how and why it happened. I don't think they have enough to do so here.

 

[Dannywood]

[NSW] CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 81C

Misconduct with regard to corpses

81C Misconduct with regard to corpses
Any person who--

(a) indecently interferes with any dead human body, or
(b) improperly interferes with, or offers any indignity to, any dead human body or human remains (whether buried or not),

shall be liable to imprisonment for two years.

(How I see it...)

Defence: Your Honour, the prosecution has presented no dead human body (buried or otherwise), nor any human remains.

Judge: Then why are we here?

Prosecution:

Absence of a body doesn't mean absence of a crime. The vast majority of crimes involving a dead person result in the perpetrator trying to - often successfully, disposing of or destroying the bodily evidence of the victim that may convict them.

We don't have his body now, but we can prove that she moved his body then. This is substantial for the charge and conviction of tampering with a corpse as per the NSW crimes act.
MOO

 

[JBowie]

People do get convicted of manslaughter and murder when a body has not been found. So why not for interfering with a corpse?

Yes, but they are charged with murder or manslaughter (or the jury finds them guilty of manslaughter).

It would be instructive to find a case in NSW where a person was convicted of this crime where (a) there was no body and (b) there was no charge of homicide.

Now in the case of Greg Lynn in VIC, police definitely allege that he interfered with corpses (moved them and burned them), but they also allege that he killed them.

 

[JLZ]

Yes, when there is evidence of a murder. And to do so, they need a crime scene and some forensic evidence proving there was a murder. And some circumstantial evidence which shows how and why it happened. I don't think they have enough to do so here.

I agree. I'm neutral as to whether she moved William but I'm definite that I haven't heard evidence to prove it. They might have something conclusive that hasn't been released. My guess is that they don't.

 

[katydid23]

Prosecution:

Absence of a body doesn't mean absence of a crime. The vast majority of crimes involving a dead person result in the perpetrator trying to - often successfully, disposing of or destroying the bodily evidence of the victim that may convict them.

In all of the 'bodiless' cases I have seen, there was substantial forensic evidence left behind, proving there was a murder.

We don't have his body now, but we can prove that she moved his body then.

What proof is there that she moved his body?

This is substantial for the charge and conviction of tampering with a corpse as per the NSW crimes act.
MOO

Murder conviction without a body - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2000, prosecutors in Orange County secured New York State's first-ever bodyless murder conviction. Gregory Chrysler and Lawrence Weygant were found guilty of beating coworker Dominick Pendino to death with a baseball bat and disposing of his body. They mistakenly believed Pendino had given police the tip that had led to their arrest on drug-dealing charges. They relied on eyewitness testimony from a former girlfriend and police informant, as well as forensic evidence showing that enough of Pendino's blood stained a car seat for him to have died without immediate medical attention.[23] Neither the body nor the bat have been recovered: Chrysler and Weygant are still in prison and refuse to say where the remains are.


In 2012, in Scotland, the prosecution secured two convictions without a body, for the murder of Suzanne Pilley and the murder of Arlene Fraser. In 2019, again in Scotland, the prosecution secured a conviction without a body for the murder of Margaret Fleming [31]

In May 2013, Mark Bridger was convicted of the murder of April Jones, a five-year-old girl from Machynlleth, Wales, who disappeared on 1 October 2012. At his trial, Bridger claimed to have run her down in his car and killed her by accident, and to have no memory of what he did with her body after drinking heavily. The jury rejected his version of events, as bone fragments and blood discovered in Bridger's house within days of her disappearance were matched to the DNA of Jones. Her body was not found, despite the largest missing person search in UK history. Bridger claimed in court that Jones's DNA was found in his house as he had held her body there before disposing of it, but his claims were not believed by the jury.[32]

On 12 July 2016, in Singapore, 48-year-old Leslie Khoo Kwee Hock allegedly killed his 31-year-old girlfriend Cui Yajie, a Tianjin-born Chinese engineer, in his car during a heated argument nearby Gardens by the Bay. Khoo took the body to a forest in Lim Chu Kang where he burnt the body for three days before he was arrested. By the time Khoo took the police to where he burnt the body, there were only ashes and a few clumps of hair, along with a bra hook and pieces of burnt fabric (from Cui's dress). Khoo was found guilty of murder on 12 July 2019, and a month later, on 19 August 2019, he was sentenced to life imprisonment.[33]

 

[sleepinoz]

In regard to trucks on Batar Creek Rd, this document from the Forestry Corp is signed and dated 2014.

https://www.forestrycorporation.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/503932/middle-brother-sf-cpt-232-harvest-plan.pdf

Haulage Pattern Log haulage will be vie McCollum's Road, Stoney Creek Road, Batar Creek Road or McCollums Road, Batar Creek Road, or Grey Gum Ridge Road, Mudfords Road, Stewarts River Road and Pacific Highway. There is a 40km/h speed limit on the unsealed sections of Batar Creek Road.

So it seems that trucks were permitted to travel along Batar Creek Rd.

I would guess that if FM was traveling slowly looking for William it would seem that a truck looked like it was traveling fast to her. IMO.

 

[JBowie]

In all of the 'bodiless' cases I have seen, there was substantial forensic evidence left behind, proving there was a murder.


What proof is there that she moved his body?

Murder conviction without a body - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2000, prosecutors in Orange County secured New York State's first-ever bodyless murder conviction. Gregory Chrysler and Lawrence Weygant were found guilty of beating coworker Dominick Pendino to death with a baseball bat and disposing of his body. They mistakenly believed Pendino had given police the tip that had led to their arrest on drug-dealing charges. They relied on eyewitness testimony from a former girlfriend and police informant, as well as forensic evidence showing that enough of Pendino's blood stained a car seat for him to have died without immediate medical attention.[23] Neither the body nor the bat have been recovered: Chrysler and Weygant are still in prison and refuse to say where the remains are.


In 2012, in Scotland, the prosecution secured two convictions without a body, for the murder of Suzanne Pilley and the murder of Arlene Fraser. In 2019, again in Scotland, the prosecution secured a conviction without a body for the murder of Margaret Fleming [31]

In May 2013, Mark Bridger was convicted of the murder of April Jones, a five-year-old girl from Machynlleth, Wales, who disappeared on 1 October 2012. At his trial, Bridger claimed to have run her down in his car and killed her by accident, and to have no memory of what he did with her body after drinking heavily. The jury rejected his version of events, as bone fragments and blood discovered in Bridger's house within days of her disappearance were matched to the DNA of Jones. Her body was not found, despite the largest missing person search in UK history. Bridger claimed in court that Jones's DNA was found in his house as he had held her body there before disposing of it, but his claims were not believed by the jury.[32]

On 12 July 2016, in Singapore, 48-year-old Leslie Khoo Kwee Hock allegedly killed his 31-year-old girlfriend Cui Yajie, a Tianjin-born Chinese engineer, in his car during a heated argument nearby Gardens by the Bay. Khoo took the body to a forest in Lim Chu Kang where he burnt the body for three days before he was arrested. By the time Khoo took the police to where he burnt the body, there were only ashes and a few clumps of hair, along with a bra hook and pieces of burnt fabric (from Cui's dress). Khoo was found guilty of murder on 12 July 2019, and a month later, on 19 August 2019, he was sentenced to life imprisonment.[33]

Yes, again, all of those people were charged with homicide.

 

[JBowie]

In regard to trucks on Batar Creek Rd, this document from the Forestry Corp is signed and dated 2014.

https://www.forestrycorporation.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/503932/middle-brother-sf-cpt-232-harvest-plan.pdf

Haulage Pattern Log haulage will be vie McCollum's Road, Stoney Creek Road, Batar Creek Road or McCollums Road, Batar Creek Road, or Grey Gum Ridge Road, Mudfords Road, Stewarts River Road and Pacific Highway. There is a 40km/h speed limit on the unsealed sections of Batar Creek Road.

So it seems that trucks were permitted to travel along Batar Creek Rd.

I would guess that if FM was traveling slowly looking for William it would seem that a truck looked like it was traveling fast to her. IMO.

In my end to end 'virtual drive' along that very long road, the unsealed sections were generally 40 kph, there is a sealed and wider section where the limit is 80 kph, and then it goes to down 50 as you get closer to farms, residences, the showground, etc.

I believe that the section in question is sign-posted as 50.

The truck, if any, could have been travelling at more than 50.

 

[Dannywood]

Or carrying a spade, I just cant believe she would have been calm enough to take him down the road, carry him into the bush and bury him deeply enough that he was gone forever, go back home and convince her mother and husband that she knew nothing, and have her best friend appear on National TV appealing for William’s return, and then carry on begging for the police to keep investigating for the next nine or so years.

Most normal people wouldn't cover up an accident or assault. A normal person would call 000. Most normal people wouldn't assault their other foster children or assume the position of mother for children placed in their care - a paid, temporary position. Perhaps we aren't dealing with a normal person?

There's been no suggestion that she buried William which makes it all the more macabre. Perhaps she simply placed his body in the riding school after an assault or accident - thinking he would be found by police in the initial search and that police would buy the theory that he was snatched randomly and killed and dumped. She's not a criminologist, police profiler or someone who would be aware that police wouldn't buy this story considering there was likely no evidence of sexual assault - which is the MO for nearly all non custodial child abductions.

Perhaps only after he wasn't found in initial searches, she moved the body and clung to the improbable theory that some random pedophile snatched him from a dead end street within a tiny tiny town of only 700 people, within the "few" minutes he wasn't supervised. MOO

 

[JBowie]

Most normal people wouldn't cover up an accident or assault. A normal person would call 000. Most normal people wouldn't assault their other foster children or assume the position of mother for children placed in their care - a paid, temporary position. Perhaps we aren't dealing with a normal person?

There's been no suggestion that she buried William which makes it all the more macabre. Perhaps she simply placed his body in the riding school after an assault or accident - thinking he would be found by police in the initial search and that police would buy the theory that he was snatched randomly and killed and dumped. She's not a criminologist, police profiler or someone who would be aware that police wouldn't buy this story considering there was likely no evidence of sexual assault - which is the MO for nearly all non custodial child abductions.

Perhaps only after he wasn't found in initial searches, she moved the body and clung to the improbable theory that some random pedophile snatched him from a dead end street within the "few" minutes he wasn't supervised. MOO

That scenario is possible (and I have long had problems with the FM's account of that morning's events) but IMO police will be battling hard to convince the NSW DPP that there is a case to answer on what we know.

And as to whether police have -- in Newscorp speak -- a "bombshell" to drop, then IMO if they did they would have arrested the FM and called a media conference to say so.

 

[SLouTh]

New article here

Top cop who once led investigation on William Tyrrell on new charges

Potential charges against William's foster mother were widely reported after a confidential brief of evidence from NSW Police to the Department of Public Prosecutions made its way to the ABC.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Free version of this mornings message from GJ that was in The Telegraph this am….

 

[Dannywood]

That scenario is possible (and I have long had problems with the FM's account of that morning's events) but IMO police will be battling hard to convince the NSW DPP that there is a case to answer on what we know.

And as to whether police have a in Newscorp speak "bombshell" to drop. IMO if they did they would have arrested the FM called a media conference to say so.

Maybe the leak wasn't from police and the leak came from the dpp office and police are very annoyed about the leak, as they planned to charge foster mother - who is likely still under surveillance - without forewarning.

Foster Mother has a lot of privilege in this case. Complete anonymity, a PR company managing the where's William campaign, and financial resources to sue. It's not exactly easy for the police to navigate around this if the foster mother is indeed responsible for Williams demise.

In any event, time will tell. MOO

 

[JBowie]

New article here

Top cop who once led investigation on William Tyrrell on new charges

Potential charges against William's foster mother were widely reported after a confidential brief of evidence from NSW Police to the Department of Public Prosecutions made its way to the ABC.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Free version of this mornings message from GJ that was in The Telegraph this am….

The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions declined to comment.

NSW Police said: 'There are no updates on this matter. The investigation is ongoing'.

I feel like a mushroom: Kept in the dark and fed on [...]

 

[JBowie]

Maybe the leak wasn't from police and the leak came from the dpp office and police are very annoyed about the leak, as they planned to charge foster mother - who is likely still under surveillance - without forewarning.

I've said earlier that I feel it's possible that the ODPP was the source.

Police are generally unhappy about any leaks ... that they didn't authorize.

 

[suspicious]

Yeah I feel sorry for them too, if Jubelin genuinely believed her and she did as accused then he’s a real victim of her deceit along with all the others that went under the bus. Career ruined.

Guilty people try to con the police every day, the polices role is to not play favourites and to see past that.

 

[LolaAngelina]

Maybe the leak wasn't from police and the leak came from the dpp office and police are very annoyed about the leak, as they planned to charge foster mother - who is likely still under surveillance - without forewarning.

Foster Mother has a lot of privilege in this case. Complete anonymity, a PR company managing the where's William campaign, and financial resources to sue. It's not exactly easy for the police to navigate around this if the foster mother is indeed responsible for Williams demise.

In any event, time will tell. MOO

The anonymity has been discussed many times. It’s not a privilege, it’s the law, it was then upheld by the coroner.
Yes she was very lucky to have insight offer to assist for free.
How do you know she has financial resources? Unless you can link to her taxable income, that’s just a guess.