AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[oceanblueeyes]

I think it is just as feasible to consider that the one accused is guilty of this crime.

Made threats to kill father three months prior to the murders.

Made threats to kill his father three weeks before his father was killed. On a recent hunting trip he said it again and that is the time he was slapped by his father.

Knew how to use the suspected murder weapon.

Said it was very easy to use, which I agree.

Grandparents who knows him the best said that he was capable of doing this.

Time line is just too tight for another shooter to come in and leave, then the boy come in and do what he said he did while he was there. Just does not compute.

Plus I think the DPS investigators know a lot more than is being disclosed.

I have always thought when we get to see the GSR report, if we do, the GSR will be in places where he would have it only if he fired the weapon...like on the front of his clothing only and no where on the back or shoulders. IMO it will be on the lower sleeves, chest area of his shirt or upper area of his jeans where he could have propped the gun on his knee when he fired.

JMOO though.

 

[Fairy1]

That was me Fran - who said that we will never know about all the meth related murders - and we won't. This drug may very well be the downfall of our society and I honestly believe the authorities do not want us to know how prevelent and destructive it truly is all over the country. In any case, I do not feel the crime may have been committed by users, but rather by dealers. Anyone who doesn't know how these people operate have their heads buried in the sand. Drug dealers are ruthless and fearless. That this crime occurred in broad daylight is not so unbelievable. IF...Tim was a dealer, it is not difficult to believe someone was out to get him. I don't care if no drugs were found on them or in the house. Dealers often are not users. The bottom line is, by nature of the "business," someone very easily may have had an ax to grind. The most unbelievable part of this theory to me is that they did not kill the boy as well.

 

[Fairy1]

I think it is just as feasible to consider that the one accused is guilty of this crime.

Made threats to kill father three months prior to the murders.

Made threats to kill his father three weeks before his father was killed. On a recent hunting trip he said it again and that is the time he was slapped by his father.

Knew how to use the suspected murder weapon.

Said it was very easy to use, which I agree.

Grandparents who knows him the best said that he was capable of doing this.

Time line is just too tight for another shooter to come in and leave, then the boy come in and do what he said he did while he was there. Just does not compute.

Plus I think the DPS investigators know a lot more than is being disclosed.

I have always thought when we get to see the GSR report, if we do, the GSR will be in places where he would have it only if he fired the weapon...like on the front of his clothing only and no where on the back or shoulders. IMO it will be on the lower sleeves, chest area of his shirt or upper area of his jeans where he could have propped the gun on his knee when he fired.

JMOO though.

He was 8!!! That's what so hard to swallow. Lots of kids get pissed off with their parents and say things they don't mean. That doesn't make them murderers. I guess when we see the forensic evidence, we'll be able to make informed opinions. Until then, I am completely willing to see other possibilities.

 

[fran]

<<<<snip>>>>>
I have always thought when we get to see the GSR report, if we do, the GSR will be in places where he would have it only if he fired the weapon...like on the front of his clothing only and no where on the back or shoulders. IMO it will be on the lower sleeves, chest area of his shirt or upper area of his jeans where he could have propped the gun on his knee when he fired.

JMOO though.

Perhaps you missed the part where the STATES own expert 'concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

The GSR is a non issue, imho. Inconclusive.

JMHO
fran


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

..........snip........A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

 

[SoobsinMI]

I know that LE found fingerprints on the box of ammunition at the house. Have we heard, at all, about any fingerprints found on the ejected shells?

 

[fran]

I know that LE found fingerprints on the box of ammunition at the house. Have we heard, at all, about any fingerprints found on the ejected shells?

No, we haven't SoobsinMI, we haven't heard about the fingerprints on the 'ejected shells,' as well as fingerprints on the alleged murder weapon. Makes you wonder why they haven't submitted that, or leaked that, doesn't it?

fran

 

[MeoW333]

You and me both, and I have lived here all my life. In my area we have around 7 murders a year in the neighboring county from me and that is too much imo. In my own county it is about 2 or 3 per year.

Well I have read that on reservations they not only have drug problems but also have dire problems with alcohol abuse, child abuse and domestic violence in general. So that is why I thought it would be interesting to know how many of these 15 to 30 murders listed in Fran's link where against their own families instead of others.

Yes, if we knew those caused by domestic violence then we could whittle it down to how many were done in robberies or drug retaliations on the reservation.





imoo

That is generalizing, not everyone who lives on a rez is like that

 

[SoobsinMI]

No, we haven't SoobsinMI, we haven't heard about the fingerprints on the 'ejected shells,' as well as fingerprints on the alleged murder weapon. Makes you wonder why they haven't submitted that, or leaked that, doesn't it?

fran

It does make me curious.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Perhaps you missed the part where the STATES own expert 'concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

The GSR is a non issue, imho. Inconclusive.

JMHO
fran


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

..........snip........A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

I don't agree. Most firearm experts phrase it this way nowadays imo.

What will tell the tale is the LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! of the GSR particles imo.

He said he walked into a cloud of white smoke (lol) and I don't believe that for one second, so if he has GSR on his clothing they would be in non-discriminate areas of the clothing as the GSR swirled and sifted down all around him. Which would mean he would have GSR found on the front and back of his clothing, overall general areas.

IMO, the only places it was found was on the frontal parts of his clothing.

It is a piece of circumstantial evidence among many others and even firearm experts have said the amount found is significant but not only that, IMO, it will be even more significant if only found in locations where the firing of the gun would have left the GSR in those specific areas.

GSR is never irrelevant. Phil Spector knows that better than anyone and they only found 1-2 GSR particles on him.

Of course one can find links saying it is inconclusive yet we see across our country firearm experts testify repeatedly about GSR and entering it into a trial as a piece of circumstantial evidence.

It is up to a Judge or jury to decide if they feel it is inconclusive or points to the shooter. I think the areas it was found will tell a story. A story that he was the one holding the gun, not walking into a cloud of smoke.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That is generalizing, not everyone who lives on a rez is like that

That is true. Just like I am sure it is true that not everyone are meth users or murders others for whatever reason, just because they are on a reservation.

My heart has always been with these people. IMO the American native is the most neglected race in our nation.

imo

 

[Trino]

I think it is just as feasible to consider that the one accused is guilty of this crime.

Made threats to kill father three months prior to the murders.

Made threats to kill his father three weeks before his father was killed. On a recent hunting trip he said it again and that is the time he was slapped by his father.

Knew how to use the suspected murder weapon.

Said it was very easy to use, which I agree.

Grandparents who knows him the best said that he was capable of doing this.

Time line is just too tight for another shooter to come in and leave, then the boy come in and do what he said he did while he was there. Just does not compute.

Plus I think the DPS investigators know a lot more than is being disclosed.

I have always thought when we get to see the GSR report, if we do, the GSR will be in places where he would have it only if he fired the weapon...like on the front of his clothing only and no where on the back or shoulders. IMO it will be on the lower sleeves, chest area of his shirt or upper area of his jeans where he could have propped the gun on his knee when he fired. JMOO though.

1. The boy was home alone no more than an hour. He originally said he walked around the block 10 times, yet no one saw him. The boy provided no physical description of anyone else.

2. How does one explain Tanya R's statement that Tim told her over the phone that he was being called by the boy? I see no reason for her to lie.

3. How would drug dealer killers get into the house and away during daylight hours w/o being seen by just one person? No one reported a white car or any strange car in the area at the time. The house is not isolated.

4. It appears that the boy did not shoot every shot in succession at each victim. If I correctly recall, the thought is he returned to his father and fired more shots after killing TR.

5. There has been no information that the boy has recanted his testimony that he killed TR and VR, yet he has been evaluated and has seen a therapist. Certainly, in all of this time, the boy would have said he did not do the crime.

 

[fran]

The boy was dropped off by the school bus, sometime between 3:00-3:30, the incident happened at around the 5:00 hour. I believe there was someone who saw him walking around, but that is information from someone who's seen some of the interview transcripts, but I haven't seen them myself. So, take that fwiw. The boy saying he went around the block 10 times, is just that, words. Children this child's age throw #'s out, not necessarily accurate. They can say a 1000, when it could be 50. They could say 30 minutes, and it may have been 1 or 2 minutes. He was only 8 yo. That's the way they are and perceive things.

At this point, we quite frankly, are not SURE exactly what Tim's wife said. I've read different versions. Tim told her the boy called him, Tim told her something was wrong and he'd call her back, she heard the child call Tim, she heard someone call Tim and she asked him what he said. Your guess is as good as mine which version to believe or IMO. Tim's wife, at this point, does have LOT$ of rea$on$ for this crime to have been committed by the boy, and NOT drug dealers or addicts. Before her husband was even buried, she had contacted an attorney to sue. The first thing she asked Vince's family was 'what video games?' the child played.

(FWIW, I know of a teenage kid who broke into a condo in the middle of the day, murdered the little lady who lived there,.............because she was there, robbed her (for $$ for drugs) and got away without a single soul seeing him. Course, he did leave his finger prints behind.)

The child's description of how many times and where he shot each victim, just doesn't fit the crime. But far be it from me to criticize St. John's PD's interrogation methods. The child said, twice, IIRC, that he'd shot each victim twice and where were they when he shot them? On the ground.............that would be ALREADY SHOT........just a small detail.

The judge in the case has issued a gag order. That would mean, ehhh......the child cannot talk. His attorney has said he's innocent, but some people just don't wanna hear it. Of course, to get around the 'gag order,' the pros is posting all their info on the internet, even set up a special page, just for this case. Of course, they only post what they want revealed, keeping other stuff 'not available.' Heck, they even posted the child's name...........so much for the laws of privacy for minors.

Guess it's difficult to imagine a 'victim' could possibly, in part, be responsible for his own death due to his life style. Happens all the time to women though. If a prostitute is murdered, people pretty much blame her because of her line of work. IMHO, the same thing goes for drug dealers. Their line of work puts them in the line of fire, so to speak. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, drugs kill AND can cause collateral damage.

Time will tell if this is drug related, womanizing related, or 'domestic violence' by an 8 yo child. Time will tell.

JMHO
fran

 

[dgfred]

1. The boy was home alone no more than an hour. He originally said he walked around the block 10 times, yet no one saw him. The boy provided no physical description of anyone else.

2. How does one explain Tanya R's statement that Tim told her over the phone that he was being called by the boy? I see no reason for her to lie.

3. How would drug dealer killers get into the house and away during daylight hours w/o being seen by just one person? No one reported a white car or any strange car in the area at the time. The house is not isolated.

4. It appears that the boy did not shoot every shot in succession at each victim. If I correctly recall, the thought is he returned to his father and fired more shots after killing TR.

5. There has been no information that the boy has recanted his testimony that he killed TR and VR, yet he has been evaluated and has seen a therapist. Certainly, in all of this time, the boy would have said he did not do the crime.

a. no one know exactly what the kid was doing during that time. So you think he was just lying in wait with a bolt-action rifle for his dad to get home???

b. Maybe Tim didn't say that. Maybe Tim 'thought' he heard the boy.

c. Seems to be kind of isolated, but getting in the house without being seen doesn't seem that difficult. Nobody (but one questionable) even saw the boy, so how would they have seen the white car?

d. Firing THAT single-shot bolt-action rifle is the biggest problem I have with the whole scenario, not the where and at who the shots were taken. Way more difficult than has been described by some.

e. Lawyer's first job is usually to get their clients NOT to say anything else.
They had already led him into a confession, and he probably wasn't exactly sure what he was saying anyway and the consequences.

Keep 'em coming. So anything that remotely points to the boy is evidence against him but one of the victim's drug history/womanizing doesn't even make some of you bat an eye? Tunnel vision it seems.

 

[shadowraiths]

Have any of you read Sergeant Richard Guinn's report? Or any of the other case reports, for that matter? For example, the autopsy reports? Interviews, etcetera? I found these excerpts from Guinn's report to be interesting.

"I observed several shell casings that I believed to be 22 caliber rimfire cases located near the body on the porch. The casings were marked and then I moved to the body. The body, later identified as Timothy Romans, was lying face down, with the head in front ofthe screen door, on the door mat. A pool of blood was forming under his face. The blood appeared to be coming from his nose and mouth. I was unable to discern any obvious wounds to Mr. Romans at this time. The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head. I observed a hole in the screen, approximately six to seven inches from the bottom ofthe door and 10 to 11 inches from the right hand edge of the door." (page 2, para 3)

"Moving left(east across front of house)from the door I observed a pack of camel cigarettes, a blue Bic lighter, two Sinex nasal inhalers and a visine bottle, lying on the porch near Romans' left foot. A line of blood spatter was noted leading from the body to the north end of the drive way." (page 2, para 4)


"Chief Melnick pointed out a rimfire shell casing on the second step of the lower stair way, he then said that the second body was located on the upper stairway. The Lower stairway consists of eight steps, facing east, ending in a landing." (page 3, para 1)

"At the top of the stairs, I observed a male subject lying face down, with his arms beneath his body. This man was identified as Vincent Romero. Romero was face down with his head and upper chest across the top step, his body extended down the flight of steps with his feet above the third step from the lower landing. I observed a rimfire casing on the third step and one on the fourth step, both near the south wall of the stairwell. Romero was lying with his face directly on the upper landing in a pool of blood. I observed several pieces of tissue in the blood that appeared to be brain matter. There was also blood spattered onto the south wall ofthe stair way across from where Romero's head was lying. I noticed that Romero was still wearing his hard hat and his safety glasses. In the center of the landing I saw another rimfire case lying on the rug. I marked the casings and then photographed all of the items." (page 3, para 2)
​

Considering the above in conjuction with the autopsy findings:

Subject: Vincent Romero
Height: 5'9
Weight: 178lbs
COD: Multiple gunshot wounds

• Right top of the head: The wound has coursed in a front to back and downward direction. Examination of the entrance woundreveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Left side of the head: The wound has coursed in a left to right and downward direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Left lateral posterior arm: The wound has coursed in a left to right direction.
  
  
• Right upper back: The wound has coursed in a back to front and downward direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.

​

Subject: Timoth Roman
Height: 5'8
Weight: 185lbs
COD: Multiple gunshot wounds

• Right top of the head: The wound has coursed in a downward and a right to left direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Right back of the head: The wound has coursed in a back to front and right to left direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Right chest: The wound has coursed in a front to back, slight right to left, and downward direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Left chest: The wound has coursed in a front to back, left to right, and downward direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Right posterior forearm: The wound has coursed in a right to left direction. Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing.
  
  
• Left side of the head: There is a graze wound, 3.5 x 1.0 cm.

​

​

... I find it rather increduluous that anyone much less an 8-year old child could independently fire upon two male adults resulting in multi-directional entrance/exit wounds. Hmmm... I think I will play around with recreating a 3d model of the crime scene just to see how "off" I may (or not) be. Bc if this child did in fact kill these two men, I would love to know how he managed to position the gun such that the majority of bullets were traveling in downward direction, from the front, back, and both sides.

These together, to my mind, make the boy's confession even less credible.

And here's another interesting tidbit from Commander James Womack's report:

"Counts and Phipps both advised me Amos is a former Army Ranger who served in Vietnam. Amos quit Zachry on October 15th or 17th, 2008. Amos currently works at the Tucson Electric Power Plant south of St. Johns, for either, Foster, TIC, or Kiewit." (page 6, para 3)

"I asked what Amos drove to work. Mark Mercer said Amos drives a small white Ford Ranger." (page 7, para 5)

"Phipps and Counts both said they would talk to Amos ifthey were me. Phipps said Amos lost his son in Holbrook about a year ago. He said someone murdered his son by burning him up in a car after a bar fight. Phipps said the incident changed Amos. Phipps said Amos is an ex-Army Ranger and Vietnam Vet." (page 7, para 8)

"I asked Dana, if Tim was messing around with any women in town. Dana said Tim was sleeping with a girl named Candy and a girl named Misty. I asked Dana how he knew about him sleeping with them. Dana said Tim talked about them at work. He said Tim talked about sleeping with them and said he had spent the night at one of their houses and got up the next day and came to work. Dana said, Vincent asked Tim if they knew he was sleeping with both of them and Tim said, "Yes". Dana said they had the conversation about two months ago at work. Dana said Tim talked about Misty having a psycho boyfriend." (page 8, para 4)
​

Iow, if they followed up on the above. Esp Amos, who from my read, had a significant stressor.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The boy was dropped off by the school bus, sometime between 3:00-3:30, the incident happened at around the 5:00 hour. I believe there was someone who saw him walking around, but that is information from someone who's seen some of the interview transcripts, but I haven't seen them myself. So, take that fwiw. The boy saying he went around the block 10 times, is just that, words. Children this child's age throw #'s out, not necessarily accurate. They can say a 1000, when it could be 50. They could say 30 minutes, and it may have been 1 or 2 minutes. He was only 8 yo. That's the way they are and perceive things.

At this point, we quite frankly, are not SURE exactly what Tim's wife said. I've read different versions. Tim told her the boy called him, Tim told her something was wrong and he'd call her back, she heard the child call Tim, she heard someone call Tim and she asked him what he said. Your guess is as good as mine which version to believe or IMO. Tim's wife, at this point, does have LOT$ of rea$on$ for this crime to have been committed by the boy, and NOT drug dealers or addicts. Before her husband was even buried, she had contacted an attorney to sue. The first thing she asked Vince's family was 'what video games?' the child played.

(FWIW, I know of a teenage kid who broke into a condo in the middle of the day, murdered the little lady who lived there,.............because she was there, robbed her (for $$ for drugs) and got away without a single soul seeing him. Course, he did leave his finger prints behind.)

The child's description of how many times and where he shot each victim, just doesn't fit the crime. But far be it from me to criticize St. John's PD's interrogation methods. The child said, twice, IIRC, that he'd shot each victim twice and where were they when he shot them? On the ground.............that would be ALREADY SHOT........just a small detail.

The judge in the case has issued a gag order. That would mean, ehhh......the child cannot talk. His attorney has said he's innocent, but some people just don't wanna hear it. Of course, to get around the 'gag order,' the pros is posting all their info on the internet, even set up a special page, just for this case. Of course, they only post what they want revealed, keeping other stuff 'not available.' Heck, they even posted the child's name...........so much for the laws of privacy for minors.

Guess it's difficult to imagine a 'victim' could possibly, in part, be responsible for his own death due to his life style. Happens all the time to women though. If a prostitute is murdered, people pretty much blame her because of her line of work. IMHO, the same thing goes for drug dealers. Their line of work puts them in the line of fire, so to speak. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, drugs kill AND can cause collateral damage.

Time will tell if this is drug related, womanizing related, or 'domestic violence' by an 8 yo child. Time will tell.

JMHO
fran

I guess it is even harder for some to imagine that an almost 9 year old was capable of doing all of this.

There is no way, imo some mysterious druggies could have come in that area and kill two men in the alloted time and for everything to happen after then, in this case. There was no time for them to be there, kill, then leave and then for the kid to come strolling along the street and see Tim's body on the porch and then go inside and do what he said he did and all of this be over and the 911 call already made by 5:03 pm.

I also was told by someone who has read the DPS report transcripts that the boy was seen right after the gunfire was heard, petting his dog outside and then he WALKED away toward the neighbor in back of him. I was also told that in those same transcripts it said he insisted that the boy, Austin, come back with him to look at Tim's body and they walked back to the scene and was there when Austin's father arrived to see Tim's body and then call 911. If this is so, that is chilling behavior, imo

Tim Romans laid there on his stomach, dead, with his wallet in his pocket yet it was never touched and it wouldn't take but a second to lift it and neither was Vinnie's money in his wallet touched and there is no connection whatsoever that Vincent Romero has ever been involved or used drugs. No drugs found in Tim's truck, nor the home nor in either one of their systems. They died clean as a whistle on everything. And valuable weapons were all left behind and nothing whatsoever was taken.

There may be some druggies that are glad that Tim was killed but IMO there is nothing, nada, showing that any one of them did this.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

I guess it is even harder for some to imagine that an almost 9 year old was capable of doing all of this.

There is no way, imo some mysterious druggies could have come in that area and kill two men in the alloted time and for everything to happen after then, in this case. There was no time for them to be there, kill, then leave and then for the kid to come strolling along the street and see Tim's body on the porch and then go inside and do what he said he did and all of this be over and the 911 call already made by 5:03 pm.

I also was told by someone who has read the DPS report transcripts that the boy was seen right after the gunfire was heard, petting his dog outside and then he WALKED away toward the neighbor in back of him. I was also told that in those same transcripts it said he insisted that the boy, Austin, come back with him to look at Tim's body and they walked back to the scene and was there when Austin's father arrived to see Tim's body and then call 911. If this is so, that is chilling behavior, imo

Tim Romans laid there on his stomach, dead, with his wallet in his pocket yet it was never touched and it wouldn't take but a second to lift it and neither was Vinnie's money in his wallet touched and there is no connection whatsoever that Vincent Romero has ever been involved or used drugs. No drugs found in Tim's truck, nor the home nor in either one of their systems. They died clean as a whistle on everything. And valuable weapons were all left behind and nothing whatsoever was taken.

There may be some druggies that are glad that Tim was killed but IMO there is nothing, nada, showing that any one of them did this.

imoo

I find it very disturbing that someone you know was able to read the DPS report. There is a gag order on this case and the fact that anyone privy to inside information is sharing it with outsiders is concerning. Don't suppose you're willing to name your source?

As I stated before, many drug dealers are not necessarily users. And if this was a drug-related "hit," the killer or killers were not necessarily after money. It's possible they were just making a statement and Vincent was simply collateral damage. He may not have been involved directly, but the fact that he allowed Tim Romans to live in his home with his child indicates questionable judgement to me.

Can you honestly, in your own mind, picture a child doing what was done here? I just can't wrap my head around it. I understand your position and I respect your tenacity, but I just cannot see it. I have never met an 8-year-old child capable of planning and executing this type of crime. Taking down 2 grown men with this type of weapon. I just can't see it at all....

If I'm wrong about this, I will be the first to admit it. But, it just does not make sense to me and there is still so, so, so much we don't know.

 

[Oklahoma Mike]

This case has bothered me from the beginning because the pieces just do not fit. The chief suspect an almost 9-y.o. boy who had a couple of episodes of verbal aggression but NO known episodes of physical aggression. No vandalism or petty theft, no cruelty to animals, no fighting at school, no discipline problem at school, no known reports of any violent behavior at all. He allegedly was able to murder 2 adult men in premeditated, cold blood with a single shot .22 rifle, reloading and firing 10 times. This just does not fit.

I know this does not prove innocence or guilt, as sometimes crimes just don't make sense and facts don't fit. But when things don't fit it is time to question everything carefully and thoroughly and not leap to conclusions. It is clear the authorities (police and prosecutors) came to the conclusion of the boy's guilt very quickly, with him led into court in chains and public discussion made of wanting to try him as an adult. This last is especially just stupid, as any law enforcement who talked about trying an 8-y.o. as an adult did not have brain engaged to mouth.
That would NEVER FLY in the USA. Making the statement shows serious mishandling of the case from the git-go.

As for the confession, I encourage everyone to look at the following link:

http://www.ncrj.org/Rodriguez/Innocents.html

I found the link after googling for the case of Michael Crowe, who was 14-y.o. at the time of his sister's murder. After many hours of interview he 'confessed'. He and 2 friends were charged with murder and one of the others 'confessed'. A good attorney eventually uncovered DNA evidence the police had never followed up on as they KNEW who the killers were, no need to check any facts. The evidence totally exonerated the teens and another man was eventually convicted of the killing. Read the history and tell me it does not remind you a lot of this case.

One other thought is that if Mr. Romans was on the phone to his wife and said he heard the boy call him WHY DID HE NOT HEAR THE GUNSHOTS WHICH HAD BEEN FIRED AT THE FATHER? A .22 rifle is more quiet than bigger guns but is not really quiet. If you don't think the shots were heard outside why did neighbors hear some of them? Go to a home in the country where it is safe to fire a gun. While you stay inside have a friend walk 50-ft. from the house
(actually farther than Mr. Romans was) and listen for your friend to fire. If you have normal hearing you will hear it. If you know what gun shots sound like you will recognize it. If he was close enough to hear the boy calling him he would have heard the shots. Even though several variations have come to light about what he said to his wife on the phone none report him saying "Wow, I heard a shot", or "Somebody's shooting!" Thus the scenario of him being on the phone to his wife while in the yard when the father was shot then being called into the house by the boy who then shot him is impossible.

I have lots more to criticize but this is enough for now. BTW, my wife and I own and shoot three .22 rifles, so I know very well how they sound and how far the sound travels.

 

[Fairy1]

This case has bothered me from the beginning because the pieces just do not fit. The chief suspect an almost 9-y.o. boy who had a couple of episodes of verbal aggression but NO known episodes of physical aggression. No vandalism or petty theft, no cruelty to animals, no fighting at school, no discipline problem at school, no known reports of any violent behavior at all. He allegedly was able to murder 2 adult men in premeditated, cold blood with a single shot .22 rifle, reloading and firing 10 times. This just does not fit.

I know this does not prove innocence or guilt, as sometimes crimes just don't make sense and facts don't fit. But when things don't fit it is time to question everything carefully and thoroughly and not leap to conclusions. It is clear the authorities (police and prosecutors) came to the conclusion of the boy's guilt very quickly, with him led into court in chains and public discussion made of wanting to try him as an adult. This last is especially just stupid, as any law enforcement who talked about trying an 8-y.o. as an adult did not have brain engaged to mouth.
That would NEVER FLY in the USA. Making the statement shows serious mishandling of the case from the git-go.

As for the confession, I encourage everyone to look at the following link:

http://www.ncrj.org/Rodriguez/Innocents.html

I found the link after googling for the case of Michael Crowe, who was 14-y.o. at the time of his sister's murder. After many hours of interview he 'confessed'. He and 2 friends were charged with murder and one of the others 'confessed'. A good attorney eventually uncovered DNA evidence the police had never followed up on as they KNEW who the killers were, no need to check any facts. The evidence totally exonerated the teens and another man was eventually convicted of the killing. Read the history and tell me it does not remind you a lot of this case.

One other thought is that if Mr. Romans was on the phone to his wife and said he heard the boy call him WHY DID HE NOT HEAR THE GUNSHOTS WHICH HAD BEEN FIRED AT THE FATHER? A .22 rifle is more quiet than bigger guns but is not really quiet. If you don't think the shots were heard outside why did neighbors hear some of them? Go to a home in the country where it is safe to fire a gun. While you stay inside have a friend walk 50-ft. from the house
(actually farther than Mr. Romans was) and listen for your friend to fire. If you have normal hearing you will hear it. If you know what gun shots sound like you will recognize it. If he was close enough to hear the boy calling him he would have heard the shots. Even though several variations have come to light about what he said to his wife on the phone none report him saying "Wow, I heard a shot", or "Somebody's shooting!" Thus the scenario of him being on the phone to his wife while in the yard when the father was shot then being called into the house by the boy who then shot him is impossible.

I have lots more to criticize but this is enough for now. BTW, my wife and I own and shoot three .22 rifles, so I know very well how they sound and how far the sound travels.

Welcome OK Mike and thank you for your insights! ITA. Based on what we know right now - which is precious little - none of it makes sense. His confession = 0 to me. Once again, I guess those of us with differing opinions will have to agree to disagree until more evidence becomes available.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I guess it is even harder for some to imagine that an almost 9 year old was capable of doing all of this.

There is no way, imo some mysterious druggies could have come in that area and kill two men in the alloted time and for everything to happen after then, in this case. There was no time for them to be there, kill, then leave and then for the kid to come strolling along the street and see Tim's body on the porch and then go inside and do what he said he did and all of this be over and the 911 call already made by 5:03 pm.

I also was told by someone who has read the DPS report transcripts that the boy was seen right after the gunfire was heard, petting his dog outside and then he WALKED away toward the neighbor in back of him. I was also told that in those same transcripts it said he insisted that the boy, Austin, come back with him to look at Tim's body and they walked back to the scene and was there when Austin's father arrived to see Tim's body and then call 911. If this is so, that is chilling behavior, imo

Tim Romans laid there on his stomach, dead, with his wallet in his pocket yet it was never touched and it wouldn't take but a second to lift it and neither was Vinnie's money in his wallet touched and there is no connection whatsoever that Vincent Romero has ever been involved or used drugs. No drugs found in Tim's truck, nor the home nor in either one of their systems. They died clean as a whistle on everything. And valuable weapons were all left behind and nothing whatsoever was taken.

There may be some druggies that are glad that Tim was killed but IMO there is nothing, nada, showing that any one of them did this.

imoo

Excellent post and I couldn't agree more!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I find it very disturbing that someone you know was able to read the DPS report. There is a gag order on this case and the fact that anyone privy to inside information is sharing it with outsiders is concerning. Don't suppose you're willing to name your source?

As I stated before, many drug dealers are not necessarily users. And if this was a drug-related "hit," the killer or killers were not necessarily after money. It's possible they were just making a statement and Vincent was simply collateral damage. He may not have been involved directly, but the fact that he allowed Tim Romans to live in his home with his child indicates questionable judgment to me.

Can you honestly, in your own mind, picture a child doing what was done here? I just can't wrap my head around it. I understand your position and I respect your tenacity, but I just cannot see it. I have never met an 8-year-old child capable of planning and executing this type of crime. Taking down 2 grown men with this type of weapon. I just can't see it at all....

If I'm wrong about this, I will be the first to admit it. But, it just does not make sense to me and there is still so, so, so much we don't know.

Fairy, I expect it is from the same transcripts mentioned in this post.

Originally Posted by fran
The boy was dropped off by the school bus, sometime between 3:00-3:30, the incident happened at around the 5:00 hour. I believe there was someone who saw him walking around, but that is information from someone who's seen some of the interview transcripts, but I haven't seen them myself.

A lot of these records are public documents. I haven't seen them either but I do think they are available from the Apache Co. Clerk's office. Since Fran knows someone that has read the DPS report or interview statements, then perhaps Fran could ask them if they saw the statement about him being outside shortly after the murders, petting the dog and then walking away. I would think it would be in that same interview report. All I know is what I was told by someone else that also said that they had read these dps statements and inteviews.

It is difficult to envision a child of this age doing this but it doesn't mean just because they were of this age they aren't capable of such an act. Unfortunately today we read about violent crimes being committed by younger and younger defendants.

I try not to let emotions sway me or the age of the defendant, any defendant, including this one. IMO, the things known thus far simply point to his guilt. Also, IMO, the time line just does not allow for all the things that had to occur during and after the murders and then walking to the neighbors and what happened after then for 911 to be called by 5:03. As you know I have always said that I based a lot of my opinion on the tight time line and what was said to have occurred during that time. I can't not twist it to fit. It just doesn't compute to me. Sorry.

I don't think this case or any other is about being wrong or right when it comes to a message board. Here we exchange opinions. There is no hurdle to cross that all must be right but to honestly state our opinions, which I believe that all posters do.

imoo