Bosma Murder Trial 02.08.16 - Day 5

[Tamarind]

Yes that's what I am saying. If she was there and drove the vehicle, she would Be charged. That's not only my opinion, it's the law.

I always though criminal intent was a factor.

 

[puppyraiser]

Asking again.... has it ever been released of how many people were visible in TB's truck on the video police say they have? LE is quoted as saying they saw one person in the Yukon.

 

[Tamarind]

Asking again.... has it ever been released of how many people were visible in TB's truck on the video police say they have? LE is quoted as saying they saw one person in the Yukon.

You would think that if they can see only one driver in the second vehicle, that they would have had same visual acuity when observing the first vehicle. If they show the video of the second vehicle they pretty much have to show it of the first or there will be no continuity on the video to back up what is seen IMO. Lets hope they show what they have, I'm waiting too

 

[Ontario Mom]

I just don't see how they can drive the truck to the end of the driveway/road, kill Tim, one of them jumps out and into the suv then drive away. That's a lot in a very short time practically ON TB's property.

Was there a timeline as to when TB left his house for the test drive and when the SUV type vehicle was seen tailing the truck?

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

The biggest reason this makes sense to me is because I used to live on a road *exactly* like this, just outside of town. From the end of the Bosma driveway where they turned left on Trinity, where the witness on the stand today said he watched 2 vehicles exit the field (at roughly 9-9:15-ish?) is roughly a 1 minute drive or a 5-7 minute walk.

However, that shouldn't catch anyone up, because what we don't know, is if they pulled over before they arrived there, or drove around for a few minutes first. Going back to DM and MS parking there and walking:

If that's where they did park, it stands to reason they'd have parked further into the field than just "right" on the road, and then cut across the field on foot (a very short distance) and exited onto Trinity, no more than 3-5 minute walk to the Bosma laneway/driveway. IF that's what they did, then once they left the Bosma driveway in Tim's truck just after 9pm, we really don't know where they went aside from the fact they turned left onto Trinity - in the same direction as Book Rd (where they may have parked the Yukon that they arrived there in).

They could have driven up Trinity for a while then turned around in someone's drive and headed back towards the Bosma place - but then turned onto Book where the Yukon was. Or, they could have pulled over between the Bosma drive and Book, and took Tim out there (apologies for how awful that sounds but at some point that's exactly what they did), and then drove down and picked up the Yukon tucked away in the tree line at Book & Trinity. Then headed west on Book toward Brantford, at the witness testified to today.

Whatever they did, it was in a very short window. The "Bate" phone contacted Tim's phone at 9:04 - the very same time SB and WDB saw DM walking down the driveway with MS, talking on his phone, and Tim coming to greet them, on HIS phone. The witness that gave testimony today, Bullard, saw 2 vehicles exit that property sometime between 9 and 9:15 pm? (see edit). A dark pick up in front, and a make he wasn't sure of (cross between a car and a truck) right behind.

It is 100% possible and plausible to speculate there was no need whatsoever for a 3rd person to be there, for these two to have done this. While the Book/Trinity intersection is very close to the Bosma place, it's also far enough away to make it very possible - with enough bends/curves and dips in the road, (and tree line on the west side of the road) for no one at the Bosma place to even see or hear a thing.

Again - I say how easy it is for me to see this only because I used to live on a road exactly like this - and used to walk/run the road every night after dinner and was very familiar with every pull-out, laneway, rough shoulder, wide shoulder, etc..

I hope that helps.

 

[Alethea Dice]

LE states they have video of TB's truck being followed by an SUV type vehicle (which we are led to believe is DM's Yukon) shortly after leaving TB's property. LE goes on to say they see only the driver in the Yukon. What I haven't read anywhere is how many people are visible in TB's truck. Is it something I've missed despite following this case since Day 1 or has this info not been released?

For the record, I'm with the Yukon being parked nearby and driven by MS or DM crowd. Don't think Donut person exists but willing to entertain the thought. ABro, can you shed light on this or is it off limits?

I don't remember them ever saying how many they could see in the Yukon. Only this...

“When Mr. Bosma’s vehicle left his residence, there was a second vehicle following,” Kavanagh said.

“We do not know at this time how many people were in that second vehicle.”

http://www.680news.com/2013/05/15/millard-to-face-1st-degree-murder-charge-in-bosmas-death/

 

[Errrr]

IMO if the murder happened in a 15 min time span (9pm last time seen alive until 915 is when the neighbour saw the 2 vehicles). Who's to say CN knew anything at that time and wasn't just told "follow us". I doubt she'd know he was murdered. If the SUV was where it is speculated to be she would not have been able to see the truck immediately

I see what you're saying but when they arrested CN they got hold of a video showing the interior of the Millard hanger during the incineration phase. Both vehicles arrived on the scene and remained for several hours. It's reasonable to assume that all occupants entered the hangar and will appear on tape. The police know who these people are. We don't. If she were one of them, it would be a stretch at that point, to pretend not to know what had gone down.

 

[swedie]

That's a very good point. I think the pub ban plus the long wait to trial causes people's imaginations to run a little bit wild

I honestly don't get why everyone is so obsessed with plea bargaining.

In any kind of negotiation, both sides have to have something to potentially gain or there's no reason to negotiate.

This is even true on Law and Order. They plea bargain when they feel they have to, not on every single case.

ABro... I'm not. HTH. :shakehead:

 

[Alethea Dice]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 38s38 seconds ago
9:05 pm May 6 Bate phone is in Ancaster and calling #Bosma phone.

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 59s59 seconds ago
First 3 communications with #TimBosma phone show "Bate" phone in #Etobicoke. On evening of May 6, records show it in #Ancaster calling Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Looking at calls between Bate phone and #Bosma phone. May 6, 7:24 am text from Bosma phone to Bate phone. Then 7:22 pm Bate calls Bosma.

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 2m2 minutes ago
"Bate" phone records show 4 communications with #TimBosma phone. 3 calls, 1 text between them.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 2m2 minutes ago
Now we're seeing the records of the Bate phone calling #TimBosma before he vanished. #HamOnt #Bosma

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 3m3 minutes ago
"Bate" phone shows up on towers in #Oakville, #Etobicoke, #NorthYork in respective comms with Tumanenko phone. #MillardSmich

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 4m4 minutes ago
Looking at records between "Bate" phone & Igor Tumanenko's phone now. 3 Communications. All outgoing calls from "Bate."



None of this is new info, right?

I haven't made it through all the post yet so apologies if this has already been cleared up. The Wind rep testified that the first three communications between the Bate phone and TB shows the Bate phone in Etobicoke. That would be the 7:24 am text, TB's call at 5:13 and the 7:22 call to TB. But yet the previous LE witness with the tower and cell phone map testified that the Bate phone was in Oakville at 7:24 in the morning, according to ABro. Has this discrepancy been resolved? Which is the correct information?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-murder-trial-day-three.html

 

[ABro]

LE states they have video of TB's truck being followed by an SUV type vehicle (which we are led to believe is DM's Yukon) shortly after leaving TB's property. LE goes on to say they see only the driver in the Yukon. What I haven't read anywhere is how many people are visible in TB's truck. Is it something I've missed despite following this case since Day 1 or has this info not been released?

For the record, I'm with the Yukon being parked nearby and driven by MS or DM crowd. Don't think Donut person exists but willing to entertain the thought. ABro, can you shed light on this or is it off limits?

Obviously, like everyone else, I 've always wondered about the third suspect. IMO, the cops gave a good explanation for shifting their thinking.

It is hard, however, to imagine the scenario of one accused each in two different vehicles so I get why people don't want to let go of the third person theory.

But I just think it's kind of futile to debate it endlessly without knowing the evidence.

I mean look at what's been revealed in the past week that people had no idea about. Did anyone ever suggest the hangar as the alleged incineration site?

The cops and prosecutors know way more than we do. I'm not sure why people put so much stock in their feelings when discussing stuff like this.

 

[swedie]

Police have said Bosma's truck was followed by a second vehicle the night he was abducted. That vehicle was a dark blue Yukon SUV owned by Dellen Millard, according to police. They say only a driver was inside.

Police have not released a description of the driver, nor have they said what role they played in Bosma's murder.

Superintendent Dan Kinsella did cryptically say, after announcing the arrest of the second murder suspect, that, "We believe the danger to the public has been arrested, and we believe the danger to the public has subsided as it relates to this case."

http://www.metronews.ca/news/hamilton/2013/05/27/the-tim-bosma-case-in-focus.html

 

[Arnie M]

More likely hooking up a trailer hitch covered in blood after dropping someone in an incinerator.

MOO

I have pictures of the hitch showing what appears to be blood smears

.

 

[Juballee]

From the Crown's opening address:

"Mr. Millard contacted a friend on May 9, 2013, the night before his arrest and made arrangements to drop off a locked tool box for him to hold on to. Mr. Millard did this around 4:00 a.m. with his girlfriend.

After the arrest of Mr. Millard, Mr. Smich obtained possession of the toolbox from mutual friends of the two Accused. Mr. Smich was aware of the arrest of Mr. Millard and he took steps to gain control and possession of the locked toolbox."

The wording of this makes it seem like whoever had box didn't want to give it to MS since he had to take steps to gain control of it. I had assumed it was given over to him by someone who was holding it specifically for him. Could it be that DM locked it in the box because he wanted to preserve whose finger prints were on it if MS was the one who fired the gun?

 

[redheart]

I cannot believe the judge has not reprimanded him via his lawyer to knock this off. But then again, Dungey isn't going to complain. It's making him look like an idiot. Trying to influence the jury with body gestures. I call that trying too hard when you've got 500 dollar an hour lawyers. Is he not confident in them?

MOO

Maybe this has already been answered - I'm not caught up yet.
But I think if the judge reprimands DM for his stupid behaviour that would be done with the jury out and so the reporters wouldn't be able to tell us about it until after the trial.

 

[musicaljoke]

Adam Carter
Feb 8 2016 12:11 PM
Court now seeing the field in question, grass, hay bales and mud tracks from trucks.

I wonder if we will hear more about this today. Will we learn that this was the crime scene? Is that why the police are establishing eye witness evidence that the Bosma truck was there?

 

[MsSherlock]

Obviously, like everyone else, I 've always wondered about the third suspect. IMO, the cops gave a good explanation for shifting their thinking.

It is hard, however, to imagine the scenario of one accused each in two different vehicles so I get why people don't want to let go of the third person theory.

But I just think it's kind of futile to debate it endlessly without knowing the evidence.

I mean look at what's been revealed in the past week that people had no idea about. Did anyone ever suggest the hangar as the alleged incineration site?

The cops and prosecutors know way more than we do. I'm not sure why people put so much stock in their feelings when discussing stuff like this.

Thanks ABro- IMO, you summed it up perfectly! We're past the investigative/sleuthing & speculative part. After 3 years, the Crown is now laying out all of the evidence used in laying their charges against DM & MS. Also, there have been many weeks of pre-trial motions leading up to the trial.

We've got a summation of the Crowns evidence in their opening statement and now it's as simple as listening to the Crowns witnesses and we can safely assume that if the trial is expected to last 4 months, there's going to be a lot of evidence presented. This is the first trial that I've followed so closely, so I for one, am surprised at the amount of evidence already presented and number of witnesses that have been on the stand.

What didn't I factor in at the beginning? I never made the assumption that TB/SB had a tenant who witnessed the test drive. I never made the assumption that a neighbour was walking his dog and saw the vehicles leave the hiding place. I never thought they took the incinerator to the hangar. I never thought they found TB's phone intact. I didn't think that was the part of the industrial park where they found it. I never thought that there was an employee at the hangar who saw the truck and I never thought the truck would be stripped down on static display at the hangar. I didn't think DM would ever have called someone to paint his truck immediately after. There's so many things I didn't have a clue about and my speculation was way off. It actually speaks volumes to LE's ability to keep a lid on this whole investigation and how we don't know what we don't know until we know it.

The Crown will continue to present it's evidence and absolutely nothing that we feel or think here on WS is going to have an impact on the outcome of this trial. This is the moment I think so many of us have been waiting for. The facts-the truth-the evidence. At this point, I'm feeling confident that LE have done their job and know that everyday I'll learn something about this case that I didn't know. MOO

 

[Honey_West]

Just a reminder that court starts at 1:00 today.

 

[canadiangirl]

Like MsSherlock, there is a lot I've learned already, we will continue to learn more as the days unfold.
The amount of evidence already put forward is astounding to me. I can only imagine what's to come

 

[ArianeEmory]

Could it be that DM locked it in the box because he wanted to preserve whose finger prints were on it if MS was the one who fired the gun?

I suspect he just put it in the first thing that could easily be locked, because generally you don't want your murder weapon out in the open or hanging out in your satchel.

 

[Juballee]

Happy to answer.

She's going to testify at this trial. If she had cut a plea deal, that would have to be included in the disclosure. The jury would have to know because it affects how they evaluate her testimony.

She can, however, still change her mind and plead guilty at any time, but that wouldn't mean she got a deal just that she changed her mind.

This is leads me to a follow up question that you or someone may know the answer to:

If someone was threatened with charges and that threat was eventually enough to make them say what the crown wanted to hear, would the jury also be told about that negotiation since it could affect their evaluation of that testimony? Or would they not have to disclose that because charges were only threatened, not followed through on?

 

[Juballee]

The biggest reason this makes sense to me is because I used to live on a road *exactly* like this, just outside of town. From the end of the Bosma driveway where they turned left on Trinity, where the witness on the stand today said he watched 2 vehicles exit the field (at roughly 9-9:15-ish?) is roughly a 1 minute drive or a 5-7 minute walk.

However, that shouldn't catch anyone up, because what we don't know, is if they pulled over before they arrived there, or drove around for a few minutes first. Going back to DM and MS parking there and walking:

If that's where they did park, it stands to reason they'd have parked further into the field than just "right" on the road, and then cut across the field on foot (a very short distance) and exited onto Trinity, no more than 3-5 minute walk to the Bosma laneway/driveway. IF that's what they did, then once they left the Bosma driveway in Tim's truck just after 9pm, we really don't know where they went aside from the fact they turned left onto Trinity - in the same direction as Book Rd (where they may have parked the Yukon that they arrived there in).

They could have driven up Trinity for a while then turned around in someone's drive and headed back towards the Bosma place - but then turned onto Book where the Yukon was. Or, they could have pulled over between the Bosma drive and Book, and took Tim out there (apologies for how awful that sounds but at some point that's exactly what they did), and then drove down and picked up the Yukon tucked away in the tree line at Book & Trinity. Then headed west on Book toward Brantford, at the witness testified to today.

Whatever they did, it was in a very short window. The "Bate" phone contacted Tim's phone at 9:04 - the very same time SB and WDB saw DM walking down the driveway with MS, talking on his phone, and Tim coming to greet them, on HIS phone. The witness that gave testimony today, Bullard, saw 2 vehicles exit that property sometime between 9 and 9:15 pm? (see edit). A dark pick up in front, and a make he wasn't sure of (cross between a car and a truck) right behind.

It is 100% possible and plausible to speculate there was no need whatsoever for a 3rd person to be there, for these two to have done this. While the Book/Trinity intersection is very close to the Bosma place, it's also far enough away to make it very possible - with enough bends/curves and dips in the road, (and tree line on the west side of the road) for no one at the Bosma place to even see or hear a thing.

Again - I say how easy it is for me to see this only because I used to live on a road exactly like this - and used to walk/run the road every night after dinner and was very familiar with every pull-out, laneway, rough shoulder, wide shoulder, etc..

I hope that helps.

The field was muddy, so if they had walked through the field to Tim's they would have had muddy shoes and likely muddy pant cuffs, which would have been noticeable. There is a reason farmers wear mud boots.