Bosma Murder Trial 03.03.16 - Day 19

[Obes99]

Psychopathy is a behavioural disorder. They renamed it sociopathy in the seventies (or maybe earlier) because it was social ie not biological. In the end, the name change just seemed to cause confusion.

I know there are now some claims psychopathy is biological but the nature/nurture pendulum swings back and forth. Right now, in the age of the genome, we are in a period where many people want to believe everything is biological/chemical/wiring.

There is, however, a very vigorous debate about this, especially outside North America, where they don't buy into this "it's all chemical" stuff.

The clinical term is Antisocial Personality Disorder. Agreed it's behavioural and from what we're learning about neuroplasticity, behaviour changes our chemistry so it doesn't really matter in the end.

 

[Gumshew]

I'll bet someone like MWJ would have be an ideal supplier for DM. At least for drugs like cocaine or MDMA.

Probably MS's weed too!

 

[ABro]

The clinical term is Antisocial Personality Disorder. Agreed it's behavioural and from what we're learning about neuroplasticity, behaviour changes our chemistry so it doesn't really matter in the end.

Speak for yourself. I'm convinced the nature vs. nurture debate still has legs.

Neuroplasticity sounds like Lamarck V 2.0.

 

[GeneHunt]

I can't help thinking, WHICH body. They may have needed to "park" the body of LB somewhere until the Eliminator was available...

The board does appear to show stains from decomposition.

One of the things that stood out for me from the emails from SS to the incinerator supplier, was that he sent an email on the 3rd or 4th of July 2012 asking when it was expected to be delivered.

Edited: my engrish wasn't very good.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I'm not convinced that MS is a huge pothead. If he were really smoking a lot, he'd have an electric coffee grinder not a cheap plastic buster (which incidentally looks very clean). And he wouldn't be using the "I'm smoking pot" rolling papers, he'd be a little more discreet and buy Players or Export.

 

[Abitcountry]

Okay so if DM and MS left the hangar around 5:55am on May 7th to take the seats to the farm, it's a 19 minute drive according to google maps. Probably a little quicker when you're driving faster than the speed limit. So let's say they get to the farm around 6:15am and set up the area to burn the seats. So perhaps around 6:30am they are ready to be lit. Fits in with the general time frame neighbour said he saw the smoke.

Now they are heading back to MS's house, a 50 minute ride, getting there around 7:45am and then it appears that DM headed back to his own home according to the cell pings. He was there by around 9am. So if he was going to be driving around that day or perhaps getting some rest, they likely left the burned seats at the farm. Maybe left them there in the field to cool down. Or dragged them to the barn. The next pings show DM back at the hangar around 8:45pm and then MS using MM's phone at the farm around 11:30pm, probably picking up the burned seats to take back to the hangar. I would assume through all of this that they are driving together with DM picking up MS again on his way back to the hangar. There is a note that DM's phone "did not communicate" that evening after 8:55pm (when he sent a text from the hangar) so I supposed he may have turned it off.

MOO

Let me just add a note about the timing suggested in paragraph 1. Sometime back there was a person posting on this thread about seeing something strange. Later when he saw the news and pictures online, the incinerator looked familiar to him. I know his sighting is not official but is still somewhat helpful for your purposes.
He saw something large and weird that he had never seen before (totally understandable).
He saw this item on a trailer being towed on Kossuth Road which is only 1-2 minutes from the hangar.
He saw this thing at about 5 am -- how close is that to your theory...pretty good I would say. Not official for sure but a little clue that you are in the ball park.

The dairy farmer does not remember the exact date (7-8) but he does remember when he went to tend his cows....about 6am and that's when he spotted the smoke that lasted for only 10-15 minutes. (I saw a car engine burn at the side of a highway and it took about that long...black smoke turning to grey very thick and over quick)

I think the seats would not have taken too long to cool just enough to handle and they could not be left out in the open...so down to the barn with them.
I think they were locked in the barn and removed only on the night of Thursday May 10 when DM and his 'princess' returned to collect the seats...and likely ditch the incinerator up in the bushes. They likely took the seats back to the hanger...put them in the trailer with the truck--then headed out to Kleinberg to mommy's house to ditch the trailer there. MOO

 

[swedie]

As I mentioned before, I didnt think Tim was run over and I believed the blood spatters came from the seat bolt holes. I wasn't off and it sounds like the truck was driven...seatless afterwards (after clean up) will see what else he has to say.

I don't believe TB was run over either. What would be the purpose of that other than to show the perps are more evil and sick minded than already known to be for shooting TB? And how would blood get through the seat bolt holes? With bolts going through the floor and tightly fastened, they would act as a seal kwim? Unless those holes were rotted out or they took the seats out at the farmland or elsewhere, then drove the truck after in was washed? Which I highly doubt, as it just doesn't sound logical to remove seats at the farm, in the dark, perhaps without proper tools, and then have some sort of makeshift seat to sit on while driving TB's truck which was hauling a large incinerator kwim. And especially when they knew they are going to the hangar anyhow, where they could work in the light of the hangar, have the privacy they needed and the tools required.

IMO I believe the blood came from within the door. When TB was shot the window shatter, and what was left of the window, was covered in blood. Apparently DM rolled the window down the rest of the way which then transferred the blood between the interior and exterior door panels.

DM likely had access to water and a hose or bucket (no shortage of them in the barn) at the farmland. It was a hog barn prior to DM purchasing it and there would have been running water. He may have done a quick exterior washing of the truck there, and of course without a passenger side window down, water would have gotten in between the door panels.

IIRC I thought I had seen a photo way back, a shot of the inside of the barn, which appeared to be taken from the outside through a window? There appeared to be what looked like an old laundry tub type sink (cupboard and perhaps a water tank?). Anyone recall such a photo? ALL MOO.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 5h5 hours ago
Splashes pool of blood to underneath truck. If vehicle driven away while flows still coming down would break up stain into spatter.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 5h5 hours ago
Source of blood had to be somewhere in area of passenger door. Pool of blood formed there and someone has taken hose or power washer to it.

 

[ArianeEmory]

True. However we still have lots to hear about. We have mostly heard about the various electronic devices that were found. And some items may not even relevant to the trial and not be mentioned. Even if MS room at home was a pigsty I doubt he would leave crack pipes out in the open with his mom able to walk in anytime. I just feel I see addiction when I see his pics based on personal experience with addicts. Could tie in with LBs demise as well. Maybe a party nite gone way wrong.

But we also saw pics of Dellen's house, where there was no longer any authority figure. I don't remember so much as a bong. I also have a lot of experience with addicts, which is why that lack of paraphernalia stands out to me. It's possible neither of them had drugs on them at arrest because they knew they were being watched--but DM had the actual crime clean up gloves on him.

MS certainly had the build of a meth user (how bad is the meth situation up there, by the way?), but his skin and teeth didn't look like it. Dark circles under eyes can be hereditary.

Cocaine = if you do enough to be an "addict" then you have it on you, or you have it when the cops toss your home, and you have empty baggies, and other junk. Ditto meth.

MDMA = not sure why this one is brought up, it makes people the opposite of violent and you can't really get addicted to it due to diminishing returns (there's a significant period before you will "feel" the drug again, no matter how much you take).

Not sure what new designer drugs have made it to Canada.

Edited to add disclaimers:

1) I know we haven't seen all the evidence

2) I know drugs were almost certainly AROUND, and parties happened, and LB at least may have had a problem

3) Just haven't seen anything YET to suggest addiction was a driver for either MS or DM

 

[jash]

Has the death certificate on DM's desktop already been discussed? Right next to the "kink" folder. From yesterday's slides (#16).

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...CRNb7IooPPZFllXFyWyCdHr42Ho/edit#slide=id.p26

 

[Gumshew]

I'm not convinced that MS is a huge pothead. If he were really smoking a lot, he'd have an electric coffee grinder not a cheap plastic buster (which incidentally looks very clean). And he wouldn't be using the "I'm smoking pot" rolling papers, he'd be a little more discreet and buy Players or Export.

IMO, you are right, probably not a huge pothead but more of a dealer. Serious druggies do not make good dealers, they tend to use up their inventory and then have no earnings to pay for it.

 

[Abitcountry]

I don't believe TB was run over either. What would be the purpose of that other than to show the perps are more evil and sick minded than already known to be for shooting TB? And how would blood get through the seat bolt holes? With bolts going through the floor and tightly fastened, they would act as a seal kwim? Unless those holes were rotted out or they took the seats out at the farmland or elsewhere, then drove the truck after in was washed? Which I highly doubt, as it just doesn't sound logical to remove seats at the farm, in the dark, perhaps without proper tools, and then have some sort of makeshift seat to sit on while driving TB's truck which was hauling a large incinerator kwim. And especially when they knew they are going to the hangar anyhow, where they could work in the light of the hangar, have the privacy they needed and the tools required.

IMO I believe the blood came from within the door. When TB was shot the window shatter, and what was left of the window, was covered in blood. Apparently DM rolled the window down the rest of the way which then transferred the blood between the interior and exterior door panels.

DM likely had access to water and a hose or bucket (no shortage of them in the barn) at the farmland. It was a hog barn prior to DM purchasing it and there would have been running water. He may have done a quick exterior washing of the truck there, and of course without a passenger side window down, water would have gotten in between the door panels.

IIRC I thought I had seen a photo way back, a shot of the inside of the barn, which appeared to be taken from the outside through a window? There appeared to be what looked like an old laundry tub type sink (cupboard and perhaps a water tank?). Anyone recall such a photo? ALL MOO.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 5h5 hours ago
Splashes pool of blood to underneath truck. If vehicle driven away while flows still coming down would break up stain into spatter.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 5h5 hours ago
Source of blood had to be somewhere in area of passenger door. Pool of blood formed there and someone has taken hose or power washer to it.

There was electricity to the barn at one time...but the meter on the side appears to have been dismantled.
If you have a well out in the country these days then for sure you would have an electrical pump for the water....We are in a rural area and when our hydro is down we have no water for the duration. Hand pumps make lovely decorations I guess.

Think they washed the truck at the hangar....would not want to risk someone noticing or police stopping them for anything and seeing blood all over the truck.

 

[dar107]

I'm not convinced that MS is a huge pothead. If he were really smoking a lot, he'd have an electric coffee grinder not a cheap plastic buster (which incidentally looks very clean). And he wouldn't be using the "I'm smoking pot" rolling papers, he'd be a little more discreet and buy Players or Export.

Don't think his grinder or paper preference has anything to do with that. Let's just say I may or may not know heavy pot users who still cut it up with a handy pair of scissors. And I may or may not know that zigzags tend to burn slower and are a major preference for the marijuana conisour.

 

[palisadesk]

Psychopathy is a behavioural disorder. They renamed it sociopathy in the seventies (or maybe earlier) because it was social ie not biological. In the end, the name change just seemed to cause confusion.

I know there are now some claims psychopathy is biological but the nature/nurture pendulum swings back and forth. Right now, in the age of the genome, we are in a period where many people want to believe everything is biological/chemical/wiring.

There is, however, a very vigorous debate about this, especially outside North America, where they don't buy into this "it's all chemical" stuff.

Of course it's a behavioural disorder. But behaviour is both biological and moral/ethical in nature. I don't know of any serious scholars in the field who believe that it's "all wiring" (or genetic, or what-have-you).

What the evidence is tending to show, however, is that there is a neurological basis for psychopathy, but not that it is determinative of same. In other words, having the particular abnormality of the amygdala or angular gyrus doesn't mean a person will become a psychopath, but it does make that person at greater risk, just as having certain characteristics of the occipitotemporal area of the brain predisposes a person to dyslexia but does not mean that the individual will inevitably develop it.

Environment/epigenetic factors also play a major role in whether a biological characteristic (whether inherited or a genetic "sport") will express itself in a particular manner. There is nothing fatalistic here. No one absolves the individuals concerned of their responsibility for who they are and what they choose to become.

The acknowledged expert on psychopathy is Canada's own Dr' Robert Hare, who has written an excellent and thoroughly readable book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us which you can probably find at your local public library (HPL has it) or get at low cost from Amazon. He comes down on both sides of the fence, heredity AND environment, as many scientists are doing in a number of fields (heart disease, mental illness, etc. etc.) The newer field of epigenetics also sheds a lot of light on these matters (see : The Dependent Gene:The Fallacy of Nature vs. Nurture by David S. Moore).

Neuroscientists are studying the abnormalities of the brains observed in both autopsies and fMRIs of psychopathic subjects; they lack of course possible comparison to brains of "pre-psychopaths" that is, children who might become psychopaths. Hare is concerned with developing ways to possibly identify them in order to put preventive therapies in place. Adrian Raine, currently at the University of Pennsylvania, is developing a system for identifying people at risk of psychopathy early enough to intervene. Some interesting correlations (remember that correlation does not equal causation) between physiological traits demonstrated in young children and later psychopathic or criminal individuals are under-responsiveness of the autonomic nervous system and low skin conductivity.

Hare, Raine and others have written a number of scholarly articles, which I am resisting the temptation to cite here, but you (ABro) may find this youtube video to be of interest:

[video=youtube;6PpKdwWHDMA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpKdwWHDMA[/video]

.. but read Hare first, if you haven't already. You will definitely find it a compelling read.

The "it's all biology" and the "it's all environment" folks are both out to lunch. Humans are complex beings, and our biology and our minds and spirits all interact with our environment and can't be discretely compartmentalized.

I could go on but promise not to. Cognitive science is my professional area of expertise and I'm well read in it. It's fascinating stuff with many real-life applications.

 

[dar107]

But we also saw pics of Dellen's house, where there was no longer any authority figure. I don't remember so much as a bong. I also have a lot of experience with addicts, which is why that lack of paraphernalia stands out to me. It's possible neither of them had drugs on them at arrest because they knew they were being watched--but DM had the actual crime clean up gloves on him.

MS certainly had the build of a meth user (how bad is the meth situation up there, by the way?), but his skin and teeth didn't look like it. Dark circles under eyes can be hereditary.

Cocaine = if you do enough to be an "addict" then you have it on you, or you have it when the cops toss your home, and you have empty baggies, and other junk. Ditto meth.

MDMA = not sure why this one is brought up, it makes people the opposite of violent and you can't really get addicted to it due to diminishing returns (there's a significant period before you will "feel" the drug again, no matter how much you take).

Not sure what new designer drugs have made it to Canada.

Snipped for space

Meth use may be on the rise up this way. But I think crack and oxys are the most prevalent. I see a lot of oxy abuse in this area.

 

[palisadesk]

My theory has always been that this board was maybe where LBs corpse was stored prior to incineration. She may have been out at that farm on the board, wrapped in a tarp. LE may not have a body or even bones like TB but they may have DNA from this board. Could be a long shot but has been my theory for some time. RIP LB

That was my thought when I saw it.

 

[Kamille]

Let me just add a note about the timing suggested in paragraph 1. Sometime back there was a person posting on this thread about seeing something strange. Later when he saw the news and pictures online, the incinerator looked familiar to him. I know his sighting is not official but is still somewhat helpful for your purposes.
He saw something large and weird that he had never seen before (totally understandable).
He saw this item on a trailer being towed on Kossuth Road which is only 1-2 minutes from the hangar.
He saw this thing at about 5 am -- how close is that to your theory...pretty good I would say. Not official for sure but a little clue that you are in the ball park.

The dairy farmer does not remember the exact date (7-8) but he does remember when he went to tend his cows....about 6am and that's when he spotted the smoke that lasted for only 10-15 minutes. (I saw a car engine burn at the side of a highway and it took about that long...black smoke turning to grey very thick and over quick)

I think the seats would not have taken too long to cool just enough to handle and they could not be left out in the open...so down to the barn with them.
I think they were locked in the barn and removed only on the night of Thursday May 10 when DM and his 'princess' returned to collect the seats...and likely ditch the incinerator up in the bushes. They likely took the seats back to the hanger...put them in the trailer with the truck--then headed out to Kleinberg to mommy's house to ditch the trailer there. MOO

Good thoughts. I amended my original post to include the incinerator as something they were moving back to the farm around 5:55am. So if the person who thinks they saw it meant around 5am but closer to 6am that's a definite possibility.

Now about the seats. There was no evidence that CN ever went to the hangar on the evening of the 9th into the morning of the 10th. I think once they dropped off the gun at 4am on the 10th, she headed back home. And the seats were in the trailer when it was dropped off at MB's house around 11pm on the 9th. So they had to have been at the hangar in order for DM and MS to have put them in the trailer with the truck earlier in the evening. And MS was using MM's phone back at the farm on the evening of the 7th.

So I suppose if we don't pay attention to the person who may have seen the incinerator being towed in the early morning, there is also the possibility that MS and DM took the incinerator and the seats back to the farm on the evening of May 7th around 11pm and were still there at 6am on the 8th to burn the seats. I'll have to check the pings for the morning of the 8th to see if that would fit.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Has the death certificate on DM's desktop already been discussed? Right next to the "kink" folder. From yesterday's slides (#16).

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...CRNb7IooPPZFllXFyWyCdHr42Ho/edit#slide=id.p26
View attachment 90115

Wow...I did not notice that. Thanks for pointing it out. I see it wasn't mentioned in court either.

Who does that? Who could turn on their computer every day and see that after either a suicide or an alleged murder.

MOO

 

[Abitcountry]

Good thoughts. I amended my original post to include the incinerator as something they were moving back to the farm around 5:55am. So if the person who thinks they saw it meant around 5am but closer to 6am that's a definite possibility.

Now about the seats. There was no evidence that CN ever went to the hangar on the evening of the 9th into the morning of the 10th. I think once they dropped off the gun at 4am on the 10th, she headed back home. And the seats were in the trailer when it was dropped off at MB's house around 11pm on the 9th. So they had to have been at the hangar in order for DM and MS to have put them in the trailer with the truck earlier in the evening. And MS was using MM's phone back at the farm on the evening of the 7th.

So I suppose if we don't pay attention to the person who may have seen the incinerator being towed in the early morning, there is also the possibility that MS and DM took the incinerator and the seats back to the farm on the evening of May 7th around 11pm and were still there at 6am on the 8th to burn the seats. I'll have to check the pings for the morning of the 8th to see if that would fit.

MOO

I am absolutely onboard with your last paragraph....that is exactly what I had worked out. So glad you have the mind to figure out and match all the pings...makes me crazy.

Paragraph...gees, I thought CN spent the entire evening with DM and they did a circuit together....ditch the toolbox ...then ditch the trailer (which I presumed was sitting at the hangar) and then go home ????

( Agree to leave commuter guy out...but because he was commuting, I trust that he was sure of time...that routine is like milking those damned cows every morning.)

Interesting exercise...thanks

 

[palisadesk]

My thoughts exactky. I don't see much issue keeping it stored in a locked barn. Possibly tarped. Can't imagine what a theif in the night would think walking into that sight. Kinda hard to steal nonchalantly! Limited selection of anyone in that market I'd think. I think I'd be running back out the barn door if I was that theif!

Not run-of-the-mill thieves. These are organized thieves, similar to those who steal cars for chop shops. They stake out rural properties, noticing which ones have regular periods of no one at home, which ones are periodically unoccupied (may have only weekend usage, for instance), what buildings and equipment are on the property. Easy to come at night and check it out, or even drive by in the daytime, and if questioned, pretend to be looking for so-and-so and look lost.

These guys are looking for things they can disassemble and sell for parts, or whatever they do with stolen goods. They come in with trailers to haul away the goods, so would certainly have been able to drag away the incinerator if it caught their fancy. After all, they needed a fairly sizable trailer and a 4-wheel-drive truck to haul away my neighbour's John Deere tractor from a rather rocky and uneven back field. And someone needed a smaller trailer to steal my lawn tractor. They are well-organized and "case the joint," as the saying goes.

Some are incredibly brazen. I've had people come in and wander my property and start looking inside buildings when they thought no one was here (my car was in the shop). When confronted they beat a hasty retreat, but I got their licence plate number just in case anything untoward happened soon after.

DM's farm was a good target because clearly no one lived there. They could have monitored the neighbour's behaviour and ascertained he went to bed at a certain hour; then be quite confident of breaking in and hauling away with no problem. Both the machine itself and the trailer it came on would be worth something on the parts market.

 

[billandrew]

Wow...I did not notice that. Thanks for pointing it out. I see it wasn't mentioned in court either.

Who does that? Who could turn on their computer every day and see that after either a suicide or an alleged murder.

MOO

Disturbing, but not surprising. The death certificate would have been needed for a variety of purposes around settling his father's estate. Lawyers, accountants, banks, the CRA, etc. Many would require an original, but a scanned PDF would prove useful in some cases, too.

I agree, I wouldn't want to see this on my desktop every time I turned my computer on either, but this is DM we're talking about!