Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[Ontario Mom]

I was wondering about the plates being changed. That suggests perhaps, that this *wasn't* just to be scoping out the vehicle with a return later to steal it, if DM had already obviously removed the plates from his red Ram and had them with him in the Yukon during the trip to Ancaster.

The way I understood that was that they were going to scope it out (the same way they did Igor's truck) and if DM decided it was the one he wanted, they were going to come back later that night, and steal it. Likely in the middle of the night when the Bosmas would have clearly been sound asleep. It makes sense they'd have the RAM plates in the Yukon if that was the plan. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they had the RAM plates in the Yukon on the test drive with Igor as well.

The change of clothes makes sense as well in case anyone did see them, they'd describe two guys in completely different colored clothes, than the test driver guys from earlier.
The text conversation DM had with CN also makes sense - if it's a flop (turned out to be not the truck he wanted) he'd be back in 2 hours (it's just under a 2 hour round trip from DM's former home to the Bosma residence) but if it "goes" it's going to be an "all-nighter".

If the plan all along was to check out the truck and come back in the middle of the night, that same night, to steal it (in a different set of clothes), obviously DM and MS would have to hang out around the area for a few hours, the same way they apparently did on most of their other theft "missions", thus the "all-nighter" comment to CN. All of that makes sense to me, which causes me to wonder if killing the owner was never actually part of the plan at all. DM bringing a gun to scare/threaten him, but that was it, until it wasn't. Yes I know he's charged with killing LB and WM but that doesn't automatically mean TB's murder was also planned.

OR, it was, and was only planned by DM and MS honestly had no idea.

OR, it was planned by both of them and MS is lying his face off.

OR, MS actually brought the gun, shot Tim and is trying to set DM up for it. (I actually don't believe that one but it's certainly possible)

moo.

 

[andreww]

Based on lack of passwords on devices, non-obfuscated browser search history, gaming computers covered in dust, and not being able to figure out how to wipe the DVR, I'd say he wasn't very technically savvy. He probably knew about "burner" phones from television (he's a fan of Breaking Bad, after all) but didn't think too hard about the details.

I've actually been rewatching the Breaking Bad series from the beginning and I find a lot of similarities between Walt/Jessie and Dellon/Mark. Given Millards comment about Breaking Bad, I don't think thats a coincidence either.

 

[RandomName479]

I'm curious why no medical records of his doctor visit have been produced by either side. Can they be subpoenaed?

Maybe TD will call the doctor to the stand to testify? MS would have to waive confidentiality I would think......

I'm trying to decide if I think TD will call any more witnesses......would have thought closing with MS would be the most impactful - so calling him first makes me question if others will even be called. On the other hand, opening strong and showing you have "nothing to hide" (there ya go RP/NS) could work in his favour.

I can see Arthur being called. Maybe a doctor. Is there anyone else that could potentially benefit/bolster MS's defense?

MOO

 

[brightii]

Just one more observation (I think I may need WS detox therapy lol) that came to my mind, perhaps DM's shoulder complaint after his arrest, as noted in his letters to CN, was a legit injury or strain caused by lifting TB's body by himself in the Eliminator, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I agree because it seems maybe done hastily not with any thought. If they did think twice, they would have had trouble finding it in the dark I would think. IMO But looking at where it landed, I think they had to pull over to Kemira. From Google maps it seems a long throw from the road.

In regards to theory of TB tossing his own phone...I've always wondered if TB tossed his phone as well. To protect his family.
This may also may answer the many questions of "how could TB'S head be on the dash if he had his seat belt on".

So IF TB felt something was up at that point, he may have unbuckled his belt in attempt to flee the truck.

ETA: See Brightii's post #569 about the assumed struggle.

 

[ILoveDateline]

The way I understood that was that they were going to scope it out (the same way they did Igor's truck) and if DM decided it was the one he wanted, they were going to come back later that night, and steal it. Likely in the middle of the night when the Bosmas would have clearly been sound asleep. It makes sense they'd have the RAM plates in the Yukon if that was the plan. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they had the RAM plates in the Yukon on the test drive with Igor as well.

The change of clothes makes sense as well in case anyone did see them, they'd describe two guys in completely different colored clothes, than the test driver guys from earlier.
The text conversation DM had with CN also makes sense - if it's a flop (turned out to be not the truck he wanted) he'd be back in 2 hours (it's just under a 2 hour round trip from DM's former home to the Bosma residence) but if it "goes" it's going to be an "all-nighter".

If the plan all along was to check out the truck and come back in the middle of the night, that same night, to steal it (in a different set of clothes), obviously DM and MS would have to hang out around the area for a few hours, the same way they apparently did on most of their other theft "missions", thus the "all-nighter" comment to CN. All of that makes sense to me, which causes me to wonder if killing the owner was never actually part of the plan at all. DM bringing a gun to scare/threaten him, but that was it, until it wasn't. Yes I know he's charged with killing LB and WM but that doesn't automatically mean TB's murder was also planned.

OR, it was, and was only planned by DM and MS honestly had no idea.

OR, it was planned by both of them and MS is lying his face off.

OR, MS actually brought the gun, shot Tim and is trying to set DM up for it. (I actually don't believe that one but it's certainly possible)

moo.

And he wouldn't have wanted to leave his dog home alone all night. JMO.

 

[Mscree]

I still remember in MH testimony that him and AM were no longer friends due to some lies

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Just one more observation (I think I may need WS detox therapy lol) that came to my mind, perhaps DM's shoulder complaint after his arrest, as noted in his letters to CN, was a legit injury or strain caused by lifting TB's body by himself in the Eliminator, IMO.

All MOO.

Meh, I think he got MS'S disclosure and played that part for himself. He mentioned his shoulder injury a few months later...."oh, I can't remember if I've told you about my shoulder" (sorry, not exact wording from letter). I took that as a "hint" for CN to testify that he had an injury and she "helped" him with it. And She did it, she claimed she'd been helping him with his shoulder for weeks prior to the murder. That was one reason why I felt CN was still in love with DM and protecting him while on the stand.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I'm not sure where I would put MH. There were some discrepancies between his testimony and AM's and I found AM to be more forthcoming.

I agree with your assessment except I'm not certain where to put MS. I don't see a lot of inconsistencies between his testimony and that of the rest.... I could just be primed to believe that DM is a psychopath

Discrepancies I have noticed

1. There is some discrepancy between AJ's testimony and MS's testimony about when DM found out about AJ calling CrimeStoppers.....I think AJ was telling the truth as he remembered it, but actually to me MS's version makes more sense......because DM started covering his tracks and changing plans early evening on the 9th.....and clearly SS was full of you know what when he testified he never told DM about AJ calling CrimeStoppers. TImeline just isn't quite adding up......

2. MS asking for the drugs and "the other thing" from AM - if this happened it does suggest he knew about the toolbox....

I'm not seeing a lot of other discrepancies between MS's version of events and the others.....I agree he isn't telling the WHOLE truth. Bring me back from the dark side Snoop - what else am I missing?

All MOO

MS's testimony isn't internally consistent. It's not that what he says doesn't match others or the evidence, it's that his interpretation of his actions doesn't make sense.

MS described his mood as:

nervous, scared, frightened, threatened, shocked, confused, in denial

I wasn't in the right state of mind
Complete and utterly shocked at everything
I didn't feel like I was guilty
I didn't go to the police because I was in denial. I did not kill Mr. Bosma. I was scared, I was confused.

...yet the next morning he was happy and celebratory, crashed for a good sound sleep, and immediately called DM after waking up.

The fireside furniture/sausages are a huge sticking point for me.

I think MS was telling the truth up until they got into TB's Ram. Everything from that point on is too conveniently exculpatory of MS. I think he is reinterpreting his behaviour from willing assistant to unwilling victim. I don't buy it.

 

[Arnie M]

In regards to theory of TB tossing his own phone...I've always wondered if TB tossed his phone as well. To protect his family.
This may also may answer the many questions of "how could TB'S head be on the dash if he had his seat belt on".

So IF TB felt something was up at that point, he may have unbuckled his belt in attempt to flee the truck.

Not sure how tossing his phone would protect the family. DM & MS already knew where the family lived.

Seat belts (shoulder strap) will let a person bend over as far as they want , only during sudden braking or impact does the inertial reel kick in and lock it.

 

[Mscree]

This makes me think if they were just going to scope out a vehicle to steal it then why didn't they go back and take igors newer model? His testimony stated they knew how to steal it without the driver. What was stopping them? They could have gone back late at night and ripped it off. I now call bs on the testimony I do believe Millard might have been alone while the shooting occurred but you don't need to be feeling that good to be a look out and drive

 

[ILoveDateline]

Maybe TD will call the doctor to the stand to testify? MS would have to waive confidentiality I would think......

I'm trying to decide if I think TD will call any more witnesses......would have thought closing with MS would be the most impactful - so calling him first makes me question if others will even be called. On the other hand, opening strong and showing you have "nothing to hide" (there ya go RP/NS) could work in his favour.

I can see Arthur being called. Maybe a doctor. Is there anyone else that could potentially benefit/bolster MS's defense?

MOO

I think calling the doctor to the stand is risky. IMO. What if the doc says he could lift 100lbs or more. MS says he used his shoulder as an excuse not to help dispose of TB but that he did strip the truck. A doctor isn't going to be able to support that story and make a distinction between what he was and wasn't able to physically do. JMO.

Calling Arthur as a witness is possible but I always wondered why he wasn't called by the crown? He is either going to support or deny doing the pickup for MS. We know MS got this stuff so what value does Arthur have. Not much in my opinion.

Let's see how MS handles cross. I feel like the MS's defence might rest. JMO (which chances constantly).

 

[brightii]

Okay, Im officially doomed - I just can't seem to disconnect from here today. :tantrum: Now I'm recalling the Crown's opening statement and IIRC they said TB died from a gunshot wound inside the truck after a struggle - have I got this right? If so, I wonder if TB began panicking around the Kemira site and threw his phone out of the window in the midst of a struggle with the driver DM? DM may then have completely lost it on TB and shot him and then pulled over to the Bobcat site to change the plates etc before continuing to the farm? I'm not sure if they would have passed Kemira before the Bobcat or after as I'm terrible with geography and I don't know the area at all. Also, since it was pitch black outside by then, maybe DM and MS tried to find where TB tossed the phone and couldn't find it, or maybe in the aftershock of his murder with adrenaline rushing, they forgot to search for the phone or didn't think it was that important to go after?

All MOO.

 

[deugirtni]

Remember those trick scales that MS had MM use? Not only was he a daily user of substances, but also not even an honest drug dealer (if there is such a thing). I wonder how much of his testimony are filtered through his "trick" habit of maximizing his ROI?

MOO

In the context of this murder trial, I think this is rather irrelevant, imho. I think there is no such thing as an honest drug dealer, and that all of them have 'trick scales' for use depending on which customer they happen to be transacting with. Greed, dishonesty, and getting something for nothing, is rampant everywhere. Of course, I could go on, and on, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, even something as basic as the age old cliche of the dishonest used car salesperson. It's just everywhere. moo

 

[Elisabeth]

I was wondering about the plates being changed. That suggests perhaps, that this *wasn't* just to be scoping out the vehicle with a return later to steal it, if DM had already obviously removed the plates from his red Ram and had them with him in the Yukon during the trip to Ancaster.

What happened to TB's plates? And his wedding ring? Would metal plates burn... or would they 'melt', or what would have happened to the plates if they had been burned at the temperatures the incinerator would have reached? Wouldn't there still be something left of them? If so, where did that go?

We heard testimony that the incinerator heats to 1400 degrees fehrenheit I believe. That is enough to melt Aluminum plates which Ontario has had for a while. It is not enough to melt steel.

As for a ring, it depends what it is made of....

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Not sure how tossing his phone would protect the family. DM & MS already knew where the family lived.

Seat belts (shoulder strap) will let a person bend over as far as they want , only during sudden braking or impact does the inertial reel kick in and lock it.

I mean by his personal contacts. I know my phone has a lot of personal stuff on it. I don't own a computer.

As for the locking of the belt. Yes, I also understand that. But according to MS, DM swerved and pulled over. This may lock the belts. I get frustrated with our Ram, slight braking causes them to lock.

 

[Nosey Parker]

MS's testimony isn't internally consistent. It's not that what he says doesn't match others or the evidence, it's that his interpretation of his actions doesn't make sense.

MS described his mood as:

nervous, scared, frightened, threatened, shocked, confused, in denial

I wasn't in the right state of mind
Complete and utterly shocked at everything
I didn't feel like I was guilty
I didn't go to the police because I was in denial. I did not kill Mr. Bosma. I was scared, I was confused.

...yet the next morning he was happy and celebratory, crashed for a good sound sleep, and immediately called DM after waking up.

The fireside furniture/sausages are a huge sticking point for me.

I think MS was telling the truth up until they got into TB's Ram. Everything from that point on is too conveniently exculpatory of MS. I think he is reinterpreting his behaviour from willing assistant to unwilling victim. I don't buy it.

Have I missed some tweets, or has he ever expressed remorse to the jury or the Bosmas for at least his version of his role?

 

[ILoveDateline]

This makes me think if they were just going to scope out a vechicle to steal it then why didn't they go back and take igors newer model? His testimony stated they knew how to steal it without the driver. What was stopping them? They could have gone back late at night and ripped it off. I now call bs on the testimony I do believe Millard might have been alone while the shooting occurred but you don't need to be feeling that good to be a look out and drive

Igor lived in a high rise. Maybe the truck was parked in a secure underground parking facility like some places have. JMO.

I don't recall exactly what they say, but I thought the texts from the first truck owner - The one that slept through the test drive time - Stored his truck outside. The texts seemed to make note of this and I always thought, why bothering test driving a vehicle your going to steal when there is one just sitting there for the taking.

 

[Arnie M]

This makes me think if they were just going to scope out a vehicle to steal it then why didn't they go back and take igors newer model? His testimony stated they knew how to steal it without the driver. What was stopping them? They could have gone back late at night and ripped it off. I now call bs on the testimony I do believe Millard might have been alone while the shooting occurred but you don't need to be feeling that good to be a look out and drive

YES !!! .... I have been thinking the same thing ..... it sounds like TB's truck was a bit of a beater ($24k - older - trans repaired) compared to Igor's truck (newer $32k)

Two days after Marks testimony I am believing it less and less ... at least the scoping-to-steal-later part.

 

[JuneBug67]

Okay, Im officially doomed - I just can't seem to disconnect from here today. :tantrum: Now I'm recalling the Crown's opening statement and IIRC they said TB died from a gunshot wound inside the truck after a struggle - have I got this right? If so, I wonder if TB began panicking around the Kemira site and threw his phone out of the window in the midst of a struggle with the driver DM? DM may then have completely lost it on TB and shot him and then pulled over to the Bobcat site to change the plates etc before continuing to the farm? I'm not sure if they would have passed Kemira before the Bobcat or after as I'm terrible with geography and I don't know the area at all. Also, since it was pitch black outside by then, maybe DM and MS tried to find where TB tossed the phone and couldn't find it, or maybe in the aftershock of his murder with adrenaline rushing, they forgot to search for the phone or didn't think it was that important to go after?

All MOO.

The crown didn't mention any type of a struggle, simply that Tim was shot by the accused in the truck. The truck passed Kemira both ways so the phone could have been tossed before the Bobcat or after it. If we accept the Bobcat as the place that Tim lost his life, and if we accept that he remained in the passenger seat of his Ram until his death, IMO it is unlikely that he would have tossed the phone himself. It would have required a throw out the truck from the passenger side to Kemira on the other side of the road, and thus presumably over the truck, over the other side of the road, over the shoulder of the road, and over the fence of Kemira. Perhaps it's possible but it doesn't seem likely. Occam's Razor suggests that the phone was taken by one or other of the accused after Tim's death, wiped down as testified to (perhaps the wiping is what initiated that brief access of data on the phone - you can accidentally start apps when cleaning a phone screen) and then thrown into Kemira as they left the area, which would now be on the same side of the road.