Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[ABro]

The earlier video evidence of a truck was not part of the Crown's case. It doesn't fit their timeline, or apparently MS's timeline either. This is a rural area and it could have been another truck or trucks captured at 9:05 and 9:15. Connecting the earlier sightings with the case first came up in cross and will likely be raised again this week.

The Crown hasn't given you their timeline so how can you say it doesn't fit?

 

[brightii]

I think that DM is being focused on much more prominently in MSM, on FB groups and on Internet crime forums like WS than MS. It seems to me that MS is benefitting from having had less focus on him as people generally seem to believe that MS played a less active role in TB's murder, including me for a long time. At the top right corner of this page on WS, it says: "Dellen Millard on trial in the incinerator death of Tim Bosma" and there's no mention of MS. Even during the trial there has been more focus on DM than MS, IMO. I had come to believe that DM is the more culpable of the two accused and yet now I'm thinking they are both equally culpable even though I do still see DM as the leader and more devious than MS. My change in opinion is recent and only since MS has been focused on more lately. I wonder how the different level of focus on each accused will affect the jury in its decisions about both accused?

All MOO.

 

[hellkat2]

That depends on which Super Sucker videos -- the ones in the Crown's evidence presentation, via Plaxton's report, or the ones introduced by Pillay in his cross examination of the same witness?

The Crown's evidence is consistent with MS's testimony. It reports the SuperSucker video capturing the Yukon going south on Trinity at 8:46 pm. We know from the phone records that the two men appeared in the Bosma's driveway approximately 9:05 pm. The Crown evidence from the Super Sucker video then showed the truck, followed by the Yukon, going north on Trinity at 9:20.

This would allow for the diversion to the Yukon, etc. as described by MS.

Plaxton did not mention, in his report that was part of the Crown evidence, that the same truck (in his opinion) was also captured going north on Trinity at 9:05 pm (that is, immediately after leaving TB's house, without any diversion, if it's the same truck) and returning at 9:15, which was evidence brought to the attention of the jury (and us) by Ravin Pillay. Plaxton agreed this was probably the same truck. If it is, it suggests that the two guys, plus Tim, were all in the truck as it went north on the "test drive" and then within a ten-minute frame, turned around and came back down south on Trinity, both times without any sign of the Yukon following.

My bet is that Pillay will try to raise doubt about MS's story by calling attention to these videos again, suggesting that indeed MS was with DM and TB for about 10 minutes before they went to pick up the Yukon. That allowed time for the shooting. The truck and the Yukon were then captured one more time by the Super Sucker video about 5 minutes later, going north again, so if the shooting had already occurred, they didn't spend much time in the field dealing with it, they booted it out of there (this timeline jives with the neighbour Bullman's testimony, too)..

A weak link here is that it cannot be established for certain that the truck is TB's truck, although it is consistent with being TB's truck (this is true in the other videos too, and applies to the Yukon as well -- the ID is tentative, but it's pretty persuasive, in context).

If the videos that Pillay called attention to are of TB's truck, then MS's story, as it stands, cannot be true. Pillay will probably make a determined attempt to use this discrepancy (among other things) to discredit MS's story.

ETA: in light of CJ Princess's point, the times on the video are corrected ones and close approximations, but the 9:05 (as per Plaxton) northbound truck could certainly have been TB's (as Plaxton affirmed).

This explanation you have given makes total sense. Raven Pillay and her critique of the Super Sucker video in her possession makes total sense to me. I hope you are correct and I think you are when you say that Pillay will make a determined attempt to use this discrepancy. And if this is the case, I think the jury would be convinced.

 

[hellkat2]

Because MS claims he didn't know he was getting it. He says he was only expecting the bag of weed. But AM's testimony, and the text message that MS sent, shows that he not only was expecting the toolbox, but had asked for it to be delivered along with the bag. It's another contradiction in his testimony.

Yes....of course. Thank you.

 

[hellkat2]

An appropriate answer as to why MS didn't run the other way might have been, "at the time 3 yrs ago, I was in the gangster mindset, I was on mission, my only thought was to have a successful mission--to stay on plan with the man I adored as an older brother I never had, I trusted in him, and he occasionally threw money and drugs my way, so I was his loyal pup at the time, now that I'm more cleaned up I wish it never happened, although if it hadn't I would never have cleaned up and gotten my GED as I now have."

Shoulda, woulda, coulda isn't gonna get MS anywhere with a jury.

 

[Inspector_North]

I do wonder how the scoping mission with TB's truck was supposed to happen if it was just a scoping mission?

1) They park next door and walk to TB's
2) They go on a test drive and return to TB's
3) They say something about still looking at others like they told IV and walk back to the Yukon?

I would assume TB would have been questioning why their "imaginary friend" didn't pick them up. The only reason DM would need MS on the test drive is if they planned on taking it at that time. In fact both not being on the test drive would be more realistic compared to bringing along a shady character wearing a hoodie.

For IV, being in an urban business area, the walk up/walk away test drive was not that unbelievable compared to doing it in a rural area.

MOO

 

[Mscree]

Yes the Yukon I thought the incinerator ran on propane. I believe you have the events reversed the incinerator was at the hanger the others at the farm

 

[Typhoo1961]

I wonder what happened to the walkie talkies that it is mentioned they used on their missions?

Where was Pedo when DM was being arrested at gunpoint?

 

[Claroon]

So what would y'all like the cross to ask MS?

I wish they used lie detectors.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Black trucks on the Super Sucker video (early sightings 9:00-9:15)

Just the other day a member posted they live in the rural Ancaster area and there are another two black trucks like Tims and they use Trinity Road. Could explain those early sightings on the video

And remember that the postal mail boxes are on the corner of Book Rd and Trinity RD so nearly everyone in that area will be there almost every weekday.

The crowns case lines up perfect with the SS video so I think it best to ignore those 9ish trucks .... obviously Tim was still at home then.

 

[Claroon]

I want to know if others were asked to be part of this mission as lookouts?

 

[slowsleuthy]

So what would y'all like the cross to ask MS?

I wish they used lie detectors.

the mission failure gang

"It was a plan for quite some time," he says. "Well over a year."

Dungey asks what his role was. "Keep 6," he says. He'd watch Millard's back while he actually popped the hood.

Smich says taking trucks for a test drive was "more of a recent plan by Dell. All the other ones, nothing ended up happening." >So he's admitting they needed keys to be successful. they were essentially useless at stealing a truck with no keys right? no success there... even after been given lessons from SS right? so stealing a truck with the keys and the unfortunate owner in it while test riding was the best plan for them right? now what will happen to the unfortunate owner... take his phone and let him out somewhere 20 miles away to walk home and a promise to be quiet I'm guessing? moo

why did he implicate himself and accompany DM on test drive trips when DM wants to find a suitable truck for himself? What was his purpose/role there...? keep 6? hmmm moo

why did he accompany DM and be seen by everyone at Bosma's home? He could have stayed in the Yukon hidden. DM could figure out whether the truck suits him or not on his own? keep 6? moo

Was he carrying his own weapon, like DM, as a backup? keep 6? moo

at bosma's home in the driveway, MS was keeping 6 for DM right? when dm and ms were greeted by the bosma's and tenant, their plan was in play, already scoped, want this truck!!

 

[Inspector_North]

I want to know if others were asked to be part of this mission as lookouts?

I don't think anyone would ever admit this. Without a text to confirm, none of these lying hoodlums could be believed.

MOO

 

[Claroon]

I want to know if the Keep 6 gang used a colour (orange), had a name, and if the word "bobcat" had any significance?

Does he know what might DM have wanted a case of white paint for?

To his knowledge, was DM in the habit of enjoying trophies, like keeping the keys to stolen items or some other item connected with a theft?

Does he know the real reason the Yukon had a missing rear seat?

Who emptied the incinerator? When and how?

Just some random questions from me, IMO.

 

[Inspector_North]

May 5 4:49 pm Millard texts Noudga: "no go today, I will be around later if you want to chill, let me know what you're saying."

According to MS, they were only scoping, and would return late at night to steal. Strange that DM would decide the mission was a "no go" at this time.

also

May 5 5:00 to 5:30 pm Millard tells Michalski about test drive, that they didn't steal truck b/c Smich was sick. Smich also there during convo.

Again, an indication that the theft mission was not to wait until dark.

MOO

 

[Typhoo1961]

MS was following behind DM and I think had he wanted to MS could have made a quick detour and headed to a police station - or he could have called the police and lead them to DM - or he could have driven somewhere else to escape - rather than follow DM to the farm where MS likely knew they were headed and likely knew why - to get the Eliminator as it was no secret DM had it there at the farm. Why if DM was behaving like a lunatic, as per MS, would MS have trusted himself to be in DM's presence in a dark and isolated location, as DM was armed with a gun, had just used it to kill a defenceless TB, and had a means of disposing of dead bodies?

If things happened as MS says, after TB was murdered by DM and after MS went along with DM to the farm and then to the hangar because he was terrified of DM and in shock, it doesn't explain why he continued to help DM destroy evidence later in the week, and nor does it explain why even after DM was in custody MS didn't go to police. I think MS had multiple opportunities to escape from DM and to go to the police and MS didn't take any of them. I cannot understand why he would not have wanted immediate protection from DM unless he is lying about what happened. It makes no sense to me.

All MOO.

MS could have turned into the Bosmas and gotten help from there.

 

[Typhoo1961]

This explanation you have given makes total sense. Raven Pillay and her critique of the Super Sucker video in her possession makes total sense to me. I hope you are correct and I think you are when you say that Pillay will make a determined attempt to use this discrepancy. And if this is the case, I think the jury would be convinced.

Ravin Pillay is a guy.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-who-is-who-1.3425638

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Where was Pedo when DM was being arrested at gunpoint?

Nothing was mentioned in the media (unless not important) So I assume Pedo was with AM at DM'S house. CN and MB went and picked him up from AM.

IF Pedo was with DM when arrested, then AM picked him up (again CN and MB pick him up from AM) That would explain how everyone knew about his arrest so quickly.

 

[Inspector_North]

MS could have turned into the Bosmas and gotten help from there.

No he couldn't! Because MS's story is twisted with lies to make him look innocent of the murder and the destruction of a body.

MOO

 

[palisadesk]

It's wasn't clear to me when DM pulled the u-turn (as per posts here I was getting confused) From the tweet order, it sounds like the U-turn was done on Book rd. So this U-turn didn't happen at Super Sucker unless Super Sucker is before Book rd.

It's easier to visualize this from the descriptions when you've been there, I think. MS originally said they parked the Yukon on the side of the road (Book Road) and walked over to Bosma's. Then he says that after explaining about the "friend" dropping them off and going to Tim Horton's, DM "drove to the end of the street."

I'm not sure what this refers to. Coming out of the Bosma's driveway -- not that long a driveway, just longer than a city house drive - they would have turned left, but driving to "the end of the street" (!) would have taken them many km up to Peter's Corners. I'm thinking that "the end of the driveway" is meant? But they still had to go a few hundred meters up to Book Road, and turn right. That would have brought them alongside the Yukon if, as MS says, he parked it "along the road" in the entrance to the hay field.

That entrance is quite distinct. It's not simply an opening in the fence/brush line (with no gate), it's a wide, flat, packed-down-dirt area where, as Bullman testified, lots of people (including yours truly) have stopped to use their phones, because you can safely pull well off the road, whereas most of the roads along there have very little shoulder and they have ditches alongside for runoff water etc., so you wouldn't want to be pulling over very far in most places. That spot is ideal. It has had a chain over the actual entrance to the field when I've been there, but I never checked if the chain was locked, nor do I know whether the chain was there at the time of the crime.

So, MS's statement fits the geography, so far. If DM told MS to get out and hop in the Yukon, It's likely the Yukon, which would have been facing east, pulled forward a bit, then the RAM could have pulled into the entrance packed-down area and maybe into the field a little ways, in order to do a U turn, and then the truck would have been in front while the Yukon executed a U turn and both went west on Book and turned north on Trinity.

The Super Sucker place is a few km north on Trinity, right across from the Ancaster Fairgrounds, just south of Wilson. They could not have done any U-turns there, though it's possible to turn around at that location by going into the Fairgrounds and coming out again..

Adam Carter's tweets.
1. DM hit the brakes and said "his friend couldn't find Tim Horton's and he's just around the corner". Then then drove around the corner.
I believe this happened as they pulled out of TB'S driveway and before Book rd.

IMO it had to happen before they turned right on Book Road. Otherwise it makes no sense. The "end of the road" referred to earlier in the tweets must have been "the end of the driveway."

ETA: so if Bullman is correct and both Yukon and TB truck DID pull out of the field, MS'S is not truthful on this part either (Unless MS considers that a U-turn) The Yukon had pretty dark tinted windows. So TB probably wouldn't have seen anyone anyways. But something just seems a bit off here as well. Unless Bullman thought both trucks pulled out of the field but it was just the Yukon and TB truck just did the U-turn.

I think the discrepancies here can be explained by what we know about memory, as I referred to earlier in my post about "inattentional blindness"- the proven fact that, unless we are paying close attention to something, we don't take in a lot of what we see in a reliable and accurate way -- or at all!

Bullmann was pretty clear about the approximate time, and that he saw two vehicles coming out of his dad's field, a truck in front and an SUV-type vehicle following. When I heard that testimony (or visualized it from the tweets, to be more accurate) I "saw" two vehicles coming out from the field area proper, one behind the other. But Bullman could have simply noticed two vehicles emerging from that driveway entrance (doing a turnaround in it, then facing forward and turning left) and not noted whether they had come out from the field proper, or whether they had just turned around - he wondered what they were doing but wasn't highly suspicious. He had no reason to pay really close attention, but he thought about it after the news of TB's being missing.

I had the impression that they parked the Yukon in the field, because it's a great place to hide a vehicle, but we don't have any solid evidence that was what happened. MS's statement could be true, or it could be he doesn't remember exactly how the Yukon was parked either (he wasn't driving it at the time. DM was, and maybe DM parked it partway into the field, or whatever). Inattentional blindness could have affected him too, as his attention may have been on his shoulder, on the "mission," or something else.

His story does line up with the Crown's evidence from Plaxton, because it could easily take 5-10 minutes (usually less though) to get up to the Supersucker location from Book Rd. if they were behind a slow-moving vehicle. The speed limit is 70 along there, IIRC, but you can't pass, so sometimes you crawl along behind a farm vehicle or construction vehicle.

It's tempting to think that discrepancies in details are a sign of falsehood, but actually it would be highly suspicious if witness testimony in lots of minor details lined up perfectly. There is a proven high degree of inaccuracy in witness testimony, even when given absolutely in good faith. What one looks for is the big picture, and tries to fit the smaller details in, but remembering not all of them are accurate, even when the witness was perfectly truthful.

Human memory is very fallible. It's most fallible when we are most certain that we remember correctly!

OTOH, I'm still curious about that RAM that went north around 9:05 (approximate time) and came south again around 9:15 (ditto). Seems a little too coincidental that a lookalike vehicle was driving up AND down Trinity Road in the same time period. Plaxton opined it was likely the same vehicle and that seems to me (using Occam's Razor) to be the most likely hypothesis.