CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #11

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I was frustrated yesterday because new information was coming through due to the older siblings moving from the hospital. This was interrupted throughout the thread with the previously discussed private schooling topic. Didn't it state in earlier threads that a sperate one was being set up for that?

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There are some things I don´t understand. A lot, but one thing for instance: they had never owned shoes. But on several photos we see them in shoes - several different ones.
Any explanations?

Also the hair washing. It looks like sibling 8 has clean hair in her videos. They say the siblings didn´t know how to bathe or wash their hair.
And in photos from trips their hair looks clean. Would David and Louise have washed the hair of all 13?

I am a bit puzzled by all this.

I think the CEO was speaking in generalities regarding the shoes. The oldest son went to college so he had to have shoes then. And we've seen photos of the kids wearing shoes that could've been returned to the store or even rented.

One thing we know from the DA is that things escalated in the last two years.

To to me it makes sense that they were deprived of regular things a lot and only now and then had them.

As to the hair of the 17 year old, overall she looks healthy and clean. We don't know how she smelled. I echo what others have said about a lack of soap and hair. But a lack of water?

But we have to remember that she was the one who escaped. So we know:
1. She wasn't shackled when she escaped.
2. She was strong enough to escape.
3. She was smart enough to use an inactive cell phone to take photos, connect
to the internet and call 911.
4. She was able to sing loudly and record videos in the house at some point.

Perhaps she had more privileges than the others? Perhaps she had just been allowed to bathe that month?

That is what I noticed too, she looks alert and fine actually. Though way too small for her age, but they all are!

Having the equivalent of a first grade education wouldn't make someone stupid or lethargic. Just lacking education. I mean they could improve writing, speaking and reading skills on their own perhaps but not have education past that level. Don't you think?

Yes, I was talking about sibling #12. It looks like #11 and #12 were pretty close, they are the ones who are hugging or holding hands when most of the siblings don't touch anyone in the pictures. It is weird to me how they were separated because, they are very close in age so, how much different can their needs be? Would it be possible to be such a huge discrepancy between #11 and #12 as far as the need for "care and attention" goes?

Most foster homes have age requirements. Many just won't take teens. Teens are split up from younger siblings a lot. Regardless of closeness or whatever.

I'm definitely in the minority here (and possibly alone) in my thoughts on where they ended up. I have known many families involved in foster care over the years, both providers and recipients, and there are several types of home. I don't know if it's personal decisions or laws, but among those I've known - some were for teens only, some were for only pre-teens, some were for adults, some were therapeutic and others more like normal family homes. It made sense to me to split them up the way they did because only the 2 youngest are under 13, the next 4 are teens and the other 7 are adults.

I also think that the adults were developing unnatural (not immoral or inappropriate) relationships with hospital staff. I think it's great that they had such caring people with them while there, but it seems to me that it would be easier for them to develop relationships in their new home without constant reminders of what they had in the hospital. The people there were really great to them, and just what they needed at that stage of their recovery, but the treatment they received there isn't the way life is in the "real world". I really hope that all concerned do have their best interests in mind when making the decisions, and that things work out for all 13 of them.

ALL MOO

I agree with your first paragraph. But not your second. How can true love and care ever be "unnatural"? It is human instinct to provide care to humans who can't for themselves. It is human nature to feel protective of or to want to give affection to those who have been harmed but yearn for love.

In the book I referred to upthread the author described this one foster mom who had the most successful outcomes with her foster kids - they had fewer mental health and behavioral issues. When asked what she did with thesekids (she had no special training. She was just a sweet country lady) - she said "I just loves them."

She took the kids (ages 3-10 or so IIRC) ad gave them what they needed and had been lacking. So, for example, a six year old foster child she had him sleep in the bed with her (which was routine for her and she got in trouble for, but I guess kept doing it anyhow), she bathed him, fed him with a bottle and rocked him like a baby in her arms. Basically, she treated him like an infant. Gave him all the unconditional love and physical care he had missed.

This is what he needed to heal and become independent eventually.

Going back to the basics of what a human needs from a parent can be super therapeutic and vital to healing. Eventually there is a transition but as the professionals here said "continuity of care" is super important. They needed to maintain those contacts.
 
Except how on earth would the media know who the hospital staff are or where they live so they could be followed? That's all confidential except for the identity of the CEO.

I would put nothing past the daily mail and similar media outlets.
 
I would put nothing past the daily mail and similar media outlets.

They can be as sneaky as they want but they'd have to have a way to determine who the staff was in that closed unit. That's going to be super difficult given HIPAA, the nature of the unit, etc. Then, they would have to figure out what the staff look like. After that, what card they drive and where they live. Finally, they'd have to conduct round the clock surveillance to be able
to follow them.

I'm sorry, this isn't princess diana and it seems very far fetched to me. The exceedingly remote possibility of a tabloid being able to do all that does not justify cutting off all contact between these very damaged siblings and the first adults to offer them nurturing and love.
 
They can be as sneaky as they want but they'd have to have a way to determine who the staff was in that closed unit. That's going to be super difficult given HIPAA, the nature of the unit, etc. Then, they would have to figure out what the staff look like. After that, what card they drive and where they live. Finally, they'd have to conduct round the clock surveillance to be able
to follow them.

I'm sorry, this isn't princess diana and it seems very far fetched to me. The exceedingly remote possibility of a tabloid being able to do all that does not justify cutting off all contact between these very damaged siblings and the first adults to offer them nurturing and love.

That wasn’t what I meant. From my understanding, the DM pays well for information. All it would take is for them to come across the right person to give them info in exchange for money. I don’t think it would need to resort to the scenario you posted.
 
That wasn’t what I meant. From my understanding, the DM pays well for information. All it would take is for them to come across the right person to give them info in exchange for money. I don’t think it would need to resort to the scenario you posted.

Okay, so let's say they pay for info and get the name of a worker. They still have to find out what the person looks like, where they live, what car they drive. Unless someone also gives them all that info for pay. In which case, any of the staff or relatives of the staff at the group home they're at are at risk of selling even more critical information. Like the exact address - no need to conduct non-stop surveillance and follow a worker to the location - and/or any planned outings for the siblings, etc.

None of this justifies cutting off all contact. It is illogical.
 
Okay, so let's say they pay for info and get the name of a worker. They still have to find out what the person looks like, where they live, what car they drive. Unless someone also gives them all that info for pay. In which case, any of the staff or relatives of the staff at the group home they're at are at risk of selling even more critical information. Like the exact address - no need to conduct non-stop surveillance and follow a worker to the location - and/or any planned outings for the siblings, etc.

None of this justifies cutting off all contact. It is illogical.

I agree. They might have some friends for life there - as if they don´t need it!!
 
We need to know:

1. Who the public guardian is
2. Why the kids were removed from the hospital
3. Why a no contact order was issued between the kids and their caregivers

Public guardian is supposed to look out for their best interests but medical personnel and psychologists did not recommend taking them out of the hospital and banning contact from their caregivers?

What other "interest" could the public guardian be looking out for in this decision if it was not medically or psychologically recommended?

The only other thing I could think of is 1) financial benefit and/or 2) For safety reasons. Not saying it is financially beneficial but trying to think of the benefits/ reasons as to why these decisions were made.

I think the public guardians "no comment" about ripping these kids from their caregivers is inexcusable and unacceptable.
 
We need to know:

1. Who the public guardian is
2. Why the kids were removed from the hospital
3. Why a no contact order was issued between the kids and their caregivers

Public guardian is supposed to look out for their best interests but medical personnel and psychologists did not recommend taking them out of the hospital and banning contact from their caregivers?

What other "interest" could the public guardian be looking out for in this decision if it was not medically or psychologically recommended?

The only other thing I could think of is 1) financial benefit and/or 2) For safety reasons. Not saying it is financially beneficial but trying to think of the benefits/ reasons as to why these decisions were made.

I think the public guardians "no comment" about ripping these kids from their caregivers is inexcusable and unacceptable.

To whom does the public guardian answer?
 
To whom does the public guardian answer?

I can’t find who the public guardian answers to specifically but they are appointed by the Superior Court.

“The Office of the Public Guardian insures the physical and financial safety of persons unable to do so on their own, and when there are no viable alternatives to a public conservatorship. The Superior Court determines whether a conservatorship should be established”
“The Superior Court can appoint the Public Guardian as a conservator of the person only, estate only (for probate) or both person and estate”.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/daas/Pages/publicguardian.aspx
 
I can’t find who the public guardian answers to specifically but they are appointed by the Superior Court.

“The Office of the Public Guardian insures the physical and financial safety of persons unable to do so on their own, and when there are no viable alternatives to a public conservatorship. The Superior Court determines whether a conservatorship should be established”
“The Superior Court can appoint the Public Guardian as a conservator of the person only, estate only (for probate) or both person and estate”.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/daas/Pages/publicguardian.aspx


Thank you, jens.

It is so sad it has to be this way, but of course the siblings need a guardian.

Big responsibility!
 
Okay, so let's say they pay for info and get the name of a worker. They still have to find out what the person looks like, where they live, what car they drive. Unless someone also gives them all that info for pay. In which case, any of the staff or relatives of the staff at the group home they're at are at risk of selling even more critical information. Like the exact address - no need to conduct non-stop surveillance and follow a worker to the location - and/or any planned outings for the siblings, etc.

None of this justifies cutting off all contact. It is illogical.

I don’t think we are on the same page at all. I’m probably just not expressing myself effectively, which would not be the first or last time. I get what you’re saying and don’t disagree. I don’t think it needs to be so extreme. I say that as someone who goes to the DM for the pics and scoop I won’t get elsewhere. Anyway, it’s really not a relevant issue and I didn’t expect my one sentence comment to spawn into a 5 comment chain. Sorry.
 
<SNIP>
I agree with your first paragraph. But not your second. How can true love and care ever be "unnatural"? It is human instinct to provide care to humans who can't for themselves. It is human nature to feel protective of or to want to give affection to those who have been harmed but yearn for love.
<SNIP>
I thought that might come across wrong, but I couldn't think of a better word to use. Maybe I should have said that it is atypical rather than unnatural. I do believe they probably need all the caring people they can get in their lives, but it might be easier to bond with the people who will be there long term if they aren't dependent on the attention of those who were meant to be there temporarily. I have no idea if having them in their lives would cause any problems, but I do think there may be some positive and some negative either way. MOO
 
Maybe the reason for complete separation from the hospital staff is they are considered witnesses for the prosecution and need to have clear boundaries between hospital course and later.


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Maybe the reason for complete separation from the hospital staff is they are considered witnesses for the prosecution and need to have clear boundaries between hospital course and later.


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That is an idea, but wouldn´t their lawyer know that - and the CEO of the hospital?

They apparently were against the split.
 
Except how on earth would the media know who the hospital staff are or where they live so they could be followed? That's all confidential except for the identity of the CEO.

The British tabloids and/or paparazzi will do pretty much do everything they can to track down someone they want to take a photo of to sell for several hundred thousand dollars. Along with them paying sources, I've heard of them planting GPSs on cars in parking lots or simply following them around. They would do this in the parking lot of the health facility or whatever they need to do get some photo. That is probably why there was a guard standing outside the hospital room where they had the adult siblings. I'm sure the hospital found itself with paparazzi and reporters posing as visitors in the hospital and that is why they had a guard posted there.
 
We need to know:

1. Who the public guardian is
2. Why the kids were removed from the hospital
3. Why a no contact order was issued between the kids and their caregivers

Public guardian is supposed to look out for their best interests but medical personnel and psychologists did not recommend taking them out of the hospital and banning contact from their caregivers?

What other "interest" could the public guardian be looking out for in this decision if it was not medically or psychologically recommended?

The only other thing I could think of is 1) financial benefit and/or 2) For safety reasons. Not saying it is financially beneficial but trying to think of the benefits/ reasons as to why these decisions were made.

I think the public guardians "no comment" about ripping these kids from their caregivers is inexcusable and unacceptable.

The answer to the second question is easy and obvious. They were removed from the hospital because they no longer needed hospitalization. They were ready to move to the next stage.

Someone (the state, I assume) is paying their bills. And I doubt that the hospital is giving a discount. Moving them to some kind of "group home" or a house of their own with a therapist/"counselor" or whatever is a lot less expensive than keeping them in the hospital.

Furthermore, the young people were ready to move to the next stage. I notice that their lawyer supported their being moved, which would suggest that they had expressed readiness to move.

My understanding is that they were supposed to move weeks ago but some of them caught the flu. This delayed the discharge.

As for the reasons for a "no-contact order," I can't think of any good one except that the guardian believed that the hospital staff would somehow interfere with what the guardian believed was the best interests of the young people. It may be that the guardian was concerned about the young people becoming too attached and/or emotionally dependent on the staff. The guardian may have meant well, but made a bad call.

There are other possible reasons that cause more concern. One possible scenario is a sort of "tug-of-war" between the Corona hospital people (who see themselves as the young people's "rescuers") and the Riverside County (I think that's the right county/group, correct me if I am wrong) that appointed the Guardian because they have temporary custody over the young people. This "tug of war" may feel entirely justified for both sides, but the disagreement does not serve the interests of the young people.

It is possible that the guardian disliked that the CEO was giving interviews and reporting on the young people.

To me, moving the young people out of the hospital was the right thing to do. Hospitals are not a place where you can grow, and people keep talking about how these young adults want to spread their wings and go forth into the world. Moving to a house where they have individual bedrooms, closets, etc. and can prepare their own food sometimes, etc. is definitely better than remaining in an institution.

And I can understand that if the young people were becoming too dependent on the nursing staff for guidance (not affection but "instructions") this might be something to discourage. BUT THEY NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN TOUCH.

There is no good reason that I can think of that the young people shouldn't be allowed to communicate with the hospital staff through Skype and maybe even group phone calls and scheduled visits (young people to the hospital). It is possible to keep the emotional link, the friendship and trust going without encouraging what may turn out to be a problematic "dependence" on the nursing staff.

In the end, a lot will depend on who is helping/supporting them now. If they are in a setting with a couple of supportive/affectionate "house parents/counselors," they can get the guidance they need and grow in their new surroundings. Otherwise, I don't know. It worries me.

(And I don't know who the guardian is and/or what her qualifications for making decisions for the 7 are. I hope someone can tell us.)
 
In dysfunctional families siblings often take on unhealthy roles that can be hard to shake and that prevent them from progressing. Caretaker is a typical role that I'm betting several of the kids have assumed. I just don't think their relationships with one another are enough to allow them to heal.

I agree that the young people need to move away from unhealthy roles that they may have slipped into because of their horrible family circumstances. And I agree that they need care givers and guides outside their sibling group.

However, having each other to talk with, explore options and make discoveries with, is going to help them all. Down the road, it will probably be healthy for them to separate and lead more individual lives, but right now the sibling unit is their emotional equivalent of a nuclear family. You don’t need to have designated “parent figures” to feel that you have love and support.

My thought is that they may be better equipped to handle separation from caregivers because they have each other. However, they will do best if they get caregiverd they can love and trust.
 
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