CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - # 2

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In the timeline I put together I had "May?" for the first time family contacted social services and they did an investigation, based on a comment posted by R in early Aug 09. Apologies for that, as it may be incorrect and misleading, since we don‘t know exactly when this was.

Daughter R posted that social services conducted an investigation several months ago and were told Bob did not want to pursue the issue. They were again contacted by family before Bob went missing and the investigator showed up two days after he went missing.

Speculation: Was the first investigation the cause for Bob distancing himself? I wonder when/how the daughters found out what checks Bob had written to the hairdresser (hearsay $50K in total)? If it was before Bob went missing, perhaps that was cause for requesting a second investigation.

-------

Information on how the county adult protective service agency investigates reports of known or suspected abuse and neglect:
  • Adult Protective Service (APS) agencies conduct investigations to determine the validity of the elder and dependent adult abuse reports it has accepted.
  • The investigations are typically conducted by APS social workers, who attempt an "in-person" or face-to-face contact with the person reported or determined to be in need of adult protective services.
    [*]If there is a report of an immediate life threat, imminent danger, or a crisis
    in an existing case, the APS worker will attempt to immediately make an in-person contact with the elder or dependent adult for purposes of intake or intervention.
  • The APS worker will also provide an immediate in-person response when a local law enforcement agency requests it.
  • There are certain circumstances when an in-person response is not required by an APS worker.
http://www.ocgov.com/ocgov/Social%20Services%20Agency/Abuse%20Reporting/Elder%20Disabled/Why%20Report/Facts%20on%20Financial%20Abuse#infooninvestigation

Thanks Cloudajo.

Fairy1 posted that she believed the first call to Social Services may have been the cause of the six month break. I have thought the same thing.

It makes sense.
 
Thanks for the answer Fairy-wasnt the will already probated? So it was a matter of public record...they could have gone to the courthouse and picked up copies if it was already entered.

I actually think that the probate info added to the timeline is very helpful and I want to thank those who are keeping on top of it.

It would seem the daughters were dependent on Bob to get the information they were seeking.

From where I sit, Bob was free to lend money, buy care, have girlfriends or whatever. No one seems to be indicating that he was not of sound mind-the calls regarding him possibly spending money on the hairdresser seem mean spirited from my perspective, fwiw.

He was free to do whatever he wanted - to be sure. That doesn't mean whatever he did was well-received by those who knew him. Ya know....people.

Now, if you believe the hairdresser was milking Bob for what she could get, why the heck would she be involved with disappearing him? That is the end to the golden goose. There is no will or life insurance in her name, right??

This makes NO SENSE to me as a potential motive.

That's what I thought too - until Dolly recently pointed out that having him gone would basically remove any obligation for her to pay him back - though we don't even know if that was their arrangement. Add to that the fact that Fontelle had forbidden Bob to give her any more money. And add to THAT the fact that the hairdresser seems to have cozied up now to Fontelle.

All we have right now are the daughters and son in law indicating that Bob disappeared at some point between 10am and 12PM. They have to expect to be looked at closely.

Yep. But we can be sure LE has much more. Beginning with the phone records.

I hope he is sitting on a beach in Mexico with a margarita shaking his head....but that makes little sense since he was preparing for the permanent arrival of his new wife.

Yeah - doesn't seem likely.
 
In the timeline I put together I had "May?" for the first time family contacted social services and they did an investigation, based on a comment posted by R in early Aug 09. Apologies for that, as it may be incorrect and misleading, since we don‘t know exactly when this was.

Daughter R posted that social services conducted an investigation several months ago and were told Bob did not want to pursue the issue. They were again contacted by family before Bob went missing and the investigator showed up two days after he went missing.

Speculation: Was the first investigation the cause for Bob distancing himself? I wonder when/how the daughters found out what checks Bob had written to the hairdresser (hearsay $50K in total)? If it was before Bob went missing, perhaps that was cause for requesting a second investigation.

-------


Information on how the county adult protective service agency investigates reports of known or suspected abuse and neglect:
  • Adult Protective Service (APS) agencies conduct investigations to determine the validity of the elder and dependent adult abuse reports it has accepted.
  • The investigations are typically conducted by APS social workers, who attempt an "in-person" or face-to-face contact with the person reported or determined to be in need of adult protective services.
    [*]If there is a report of an immediate life threat, imminent danger, or a crisis
    in an existing case, the APS worker will attempt to immediately make an in-person contact with the elder or dependent adult for purposes of intake or intervention.
  • The APS worker will also provide an immediate in-person response when a local law enforcement agency requests it.
  • There are certain circumstances when an in-person response is not required by an APS worker.
http://www.ocgov.com/ocgov/Social%20Services%20Agency/Abuse%20Reporting/Elder%20Disabled/Why%20Report/Facts%20on%20Financial%20Abuse#infooninvestigation

I also wonder how they learned about the money he had given the hairdresser. Seems to me if they could find out that much, they could have gotten copies of their mother's will as well. Hmmmmm. I have to think on that a bit...
 
"After Bob disappeared, someone — police won't say who — told officers he might have regretted the decision to marry. For three days police thought they were dealing with a case of cold feet."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html



For three days.....until Fontelle returned on Wednesday. Fontelle must have told the police what Mr. Harrod had relayed to her regarding the Sunday visit by his daughters.
 
Thanks for the answer Fairy-wasnt the will already probated? So it was a matter of public record...they could have gone to the courthouse and picked up copies if it was already entered.

I actually think that the probate info added to the timeline is very helpful and I want to thank those who are keeping on top of it.

From where I sit, Bob was free to lend money, buy care, have girlfriends or whatever. No one seems to be indicating that he was not of sound mind-the calls regarding him possibly spending money on the hairdresser seem mean spirited from my perspective, fwiw.

Now, if you believe the hairdresser was milking Bob for what she could get, why the heck would she be involved with disappearing him? That is the end to the golden goose. There is no will or life insurance in her name, right??

This makes NO SENSE to me as a potential motive.

All we have right now are the daughters and son in law indicating that Bob disappeared at some point between 10am and 12PM. They have to expect to be looked at closely.

I hope he is sitting on a beach in Mexico with a margarita shaking his head....but that makes little sense since he was preparing for the permanent arrival of his new wife.

The issue is not a will. It is a bypass family trust, one done by the daughter's mom. Robert H was in charge of getting the paperwork to his daughter's.

Robert Harrod has a family trust plan as well. From what I could gather, this financial arrangement was done many years ago by Robert and Georgia Harrod.

I would agree it seems unlikely that the hairdresser would get rid of Robert H, but I think it could be likely that she came by to see Robert, maybe took him out for lunch, and something went wrong. Maybe he refused to give her more money? He had married Fontelle and
she would be his primary focus from then on.

I think spending money on the hairdresser was certainly up to Robert, but there was the thought of undue influence by the hairdresser, in getting over $50,000.

And I doubt Robert is in Mexico, having a margarita. I wish he was.
I really do.
 
"After Bob disappeared, someone — police won't say who — told officers he might have regretted the decision to marry. For three days police thought they were dealing with a case of cold feet."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html



For three days.....until Fontelle returned on Wednesday. Fontelle must have told the police what Mr. Harrod had relayed to her regarding the Sunday visit by his daughters.

IMO - LE came up with that idea so they wouldn't have to put too much effort into searching for him. But I don't think we'll ever really know. I never really believed that, though I hoped it was the case.

In the beginning, I really believed he may have gone for a walk and fallen or become disoriented. But that's obviously not the case or he would have been found by now.
 
One other thing that has been nagging at me here.....I've been married to my DH for many, many years and I don't "forbid" him from doing anything. Nor does he. We are equal partners in life.

Just sayin.'
 
The issue is not a will. It is a bypass family trust, one done by the daughter's mom. Robert H was in charge of getting the paperwork to his daughter's.

Robert Harrod has a family trust plan as well. From what I could gather, this financial arrangement was done many years ago by Robert and Georgia Harrod.

I would agree it seems unlikely that the hairdresser would get rid of Robert H, but I think it could be likely that she came by to see Robert, maybe took him out for lunch, and something went wrong. Maybe he refused to give her more money? He had married Fontelle and
she would be his primary focus from then on.

I think spending money on the hairdresser was certainly up to Robert, but there was the thought of undue influence by the hairdresser, in getting over $50,000.

And I doubt Robert is in Mexico, having a margarita. I wish he was.
I really do.

BBM

Seems unlikely Mr. Harrod left the house on his own. More likely he was taken from the house.

If you look at the timeline, according to the SIL, there would only be about a 20 minute window in which Mr. Harrod could have gone missing.

Mr. Harrod knew the housekeeper was coming so he would not have left the house. He was preparing for Fontelle's arrival.
 
Family members said Bob (who was 81) had bad knees and had trouble walking more than two blocks. If the housekeeper arrived at about 3PM, and SIL was there until about 6PM, that means Bob had been gone from his home for about 3 hours, after scheduling the housekeeper to come that afternoon. The SIL told the housekeeper Bob might have gone to visit a neighbor.

Since the SIL used to live next door to Bob and knew the neighborhood, I’d like to know if he went to, or called any of the neighbors or his son’s house (son lived nearby) to see if Bob was there, before he left Bob's home at ~6PM.

  • Morning/Time? - Bob talked to the housekeeper on the phone and told her to come.
  • ~2:40PM – JM left Bob’s house and went to Home Depot.
  • ~3:00PM? – The housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house. The door was locked and nobody answered.
  • 3:04PM – JM paid for purchases at Home Depot (per time stamp of purchase receipt).
  • 3:30PM – JM arrived back at Bob’s house from Home Depot, and the housekeeper was sitting on the porch, waiting to be let in. She told JM the door was locked and nobody was answering, and that Harrod might be taking a nap. JM then went into the house to check, and Harrod was not there. JM told the housekeeper his father-in-law might have gone to visit a neighbor, police say
  • Time? – Housekeeper cleaned and left the house.
  • 6:00PM – JM left the house and headed home to Running Springs.
  • ~7:30-8:00PM? - JM arrived home in Running Springs.
  • 8:00PM? – F called Bob’s house but he didn’t answer. She called every 20 minutes
  • Evening - Bob’s daughter JM, SIL’s wife, called the house, and there was no answer. She called her sisters, RB and PB.
  • Evening – Daughter R called Placentia Police to do a welfare check at the residence. Officers found the house empty.
  • Night - Daughter J called F in MO and said Bob was missing.
  • Night/Early AM - F filed a missing person’s report with the PPD.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=67544
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=6939639
 
The issue is not a will. It is a bypass family trust, one done by the daughter's mom. Robert H was in charge of getting the paperwork to his daughter's.

Robert Harrod has a family trust plan as well. From what I could gather, this financial arrangement was done many years ago by Robert and Georgia Harrod.

I would agree it seems unlikely that the hairdresser would get rid of Robert H, but I think it could be likely that she came by to see Robert, maybe took him out for lunch, and something went wrong. Maybe he refused to give her more money? He had married Fontelle and
she would be his primary focus from then on.

I think spending money on the hairdresser was certainly up to Robert, but there was the thought of undue influence by the hairdresser, in getting over $50,000.

And I doubt Robert is in Mexico, having a margarita. I wish he was.
I really do.

You know I love and respect you, dream. Dont get frustrated with me yet please...I am not choosing sides here-I am way too new. I am just pointing out that if Mom's estate had been probated, the paperwork regardless of what it was, would be available to the children via public records. They could get it themselves without having to wait for Bob to dole it out to them. If they were administrators of the trust, they could have picked up copies from the attorney who drew it up.

The relationship between these four people seems to be cantankerous at best-one of the daughters own words indicated that Bob was being "conditional" during their meeting that Sunday. All I am trying to do is explore were there other ways for them to get the information they needed to accomplish whatever they were trying to accomplish. It helps me with my thoughts regarding this case.

It seems unlikely that Bob was a walkaway unless he was planning on that specific window of 20 minutes or so to run away.

I do think this is a case about money and control. I need to go back through the threads to see if the family is actively searching to bring this man back-I believe his second wife is searching for him, is that correct? It seems that his daughters would like him home as well. He has been featured on AMW, what about Disappeared for the ID network?
 
The issue is not a will. It is a bypass family trust, one done by the daughter's mom. Robert H was in charge of getting the paperwork to his daughter's.

Robert Harrod has a family trust plan as well. From what I could gather, this financial arrangement was done many years ago by Robert and Georgia Harrod. [snipped]

So, are they saying that Bob was obligated by law to give them documents as named beneficiaries in the bypass trust? They couldn’t get those documents through the court? They weren’t co-trustees, correct? Any idea how Georgia’s will, entered into Probate for safekeeping, plays into the trust, if at all?

How a Bypass Trust Works
"Without a bypass trust, sometimes referred to as a credit shelter trust or an exemption equivalent trust, assets owned by the first spouse transfer upon death to the surviving spouse tax-free," says Ferriera. But that may simply increase the surviving spouse's estate when there is only one exemption, which could trigger an unnecessary estate tax. If assets are passed to a bypass trust, however, no estate tax would be owed on assets of $2 million or less.

A bypass trust is typically created in a living trust or a will, and the assets are then managed within the trust, says Ferriera. After the bypass trust has been funded, "the balance of the estate is usually transferred to the surviving spouse who is a U.S. citizen either outright, or put into a Qualified Terminable Interest Property (QTIP) trust to take advantage of the unlimited marital deduction" which pays income to the surviving spouse during that individual's lifetime; the remainder typically will pass to children when the surviving spouse dies.

"When the second spouse dies, assets in the bypass trust can be transferred to whomever the first spouse decided would be the ultimate beneficiary when the trust was created," says Ferriera. Most people name their spouse the primary beneficiary and their children the secondary beneficiaries, he adds.

[snipped]
Selecting the Right Trustees
Trustees are determined when the trust or will creates the bypass trust, and most spouses name each other the primary trustees of their bypass trust, says Ferriera.
However, "we highly recommend naming a co-trustee, such as an adult child who's savvy with money to have some continuity-particularly since the original document might have been written years ago," he says.

http://www.investorguide.com/igu-article-202-trusts-bypass-trusts-for-married-couples.html
 
Does this mean any of the players in the case have taken polys? Why not give everyone one....JMO.

I brought over a post Ca Exile wrote on the first thread. This is the most recent information on the polygraphing of the players involved.


Posted 07-24-2010, 06:03 PM
CA Exile

"I just talked to Fontelle on the phone. She is holding up considering the circumstances. She is still living in Bob's house as is her right. She and Bob's daughters are still at war. They want her out and she wants her rights as a widow. Also, there is a lot of suspicion about the case. No proof, but the daughters have apparently been uncooperative. There could be several reasons for this. They may just be tired and want to get on with their lives. Or, something worse. Some took lie detector tests, some did not. They are trying to settle his estate and trusts. Hopefully, all of this can go to court and decisions can be made. Until then, no one will be at peace."


CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - Page 22 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
You know I love and respect you, dream. Dont get frustrated with me yet please...I am not choosing sides here-I am way too new. I am just pointing out that if Mom's estate had been probated, the paperwork regardless of what it was, would be available to the children via public records. They could get it themselves without having to wait for Bob to dole it out to them. If they were administrators of the trust, they could have picked up copies from the attorney who drew it up.

The relationship between these four people seems to be cantankerous at best-one of the daughters own words indicated that Bob was being "conditional" during their meeting that Sunday. All I am trying to do is explore were there other ways for them to get the information they needed to accomplish whatever they were trying to accomplish. It helps me with my thoughts regarding this case.

It seems unlikely that Bob was a walkaway unless he was planning on that specific window of 20 minutes or so to run away.

I do think this is a case about money and control. I need to go back through the threads to see if the family is actively searching to bring this man back-I believe his second wife is searching for him, is that correct? It seems that his daughters would like him home as well. He has been featured on AMW, what about Disappeared for the ID network?

I believe the only property probated would be what was NOT in the trust. imo
 
So, are they saying that Bob was obligated by law to give them documents as named beneficiaries in the bypass trust? They couldn’t get those documents through the court? They weren’t co-trustees, correct? Any idea how Georgia’s will, entered into Probate for safekeeping, plays into the trust, if at all?

How a Bypass Trust Works
"Without a bypass trust, sometimes referred to as a credit shelter trust or an exemption equivalent trust, assets owned by the first spouse transfer upon death to the surviving spouse tax-free," says Ferriera. But that may simply increase the surviving spouse's estate when there is only one exemption, which could trigger an unnecessary estate tax. If assets are passed to a bypass trust, however, no estate tax would be owed on assets of $2 million or less.

A bypass trust is typically created in a living trust or a will, and the assets are then managed within the trust, says Ferriera. After the bypass trust has been funded, "the balance of the estate is usually transferred to the surviving spouse who is a U.S. citizen either outright, or put into a Qualified Terminable Interest Property (QTIP) trust to take advantage of the unlimited marital deduction" which pays income to the surviving spouse during that individual's lifetime; the remainder typically will pass to children when the surviving spouse dies.

"When the second spouse dies, assets in the bypass trust can be transferred to whomever the first spouse decided would be the ultimate beneficiary when the trust was created," says Ferriera. Most people name their spouse the primary beneficiary and their children the secondary beneficiaries, he adds.

[snipped]
Selecting the Right Trustees
Trustees are determined when the trust or will creates the bypass trust, and most spouses name each other the primary trustees of their bypass trust, says Ferriera.
However, "we highly recommend naming a co-trustee, such as an adult child who's savvy with money to have some continuity-particularly since the original document might have been written years ago," he says.

[URL]http://www.investorguide.com/igu-article-202-trusts-bypass-trusts-for-married-couples.html[/URL]

BBM. Ok now I am really confused. According to the above information Bobs children would have not gained anything with this bypass trust their mother left until after their father passed away. So what was the urgency? If I am reading this correctly nothing was 'rightfully the daughters' until BOTH parents were deceased at which time the assets would belong to whom the first parent- their mother assigned to or left to them.


Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? :(
 
BBM. Ok now I am really confused. According to the above information Bobs children would have not gained anything with this bypass trust their mother left until after their father passed away. So what was the urgency? If I am reading this correctly nothing was 'rightfully the daughters' until BOTH parents were deceased at which time the assets would belong to whom the first parent- their mother assigned to or left to them.


Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? :(

Aye yi yi....
 
Family members said Bob (who was 81) had bad knees and had trouble walking more than two blocks. If the housekeeper arrived at about 3PM, and SIL was there until about 6PM, that means Bob had been gone from his home for about 3 hours, after scheduling the housekeeper to come that afternoon. The SIL told the housekeeper Bob might have gone to visit a neighbor.

Since the SIL used to live next door to Bob and knew the neighborhood, I’d like to know if he went to, or called any of the neighbors or his son’s house (son lived nearby) to see if Bob was there, before he left Bob's home at ~6PM.

  • Morning/Time? - Bob talked to the housekeeper on the phone and told her to come.
  • ~2:40PM – JM left Bob’s house and went to Home Depot.
  • ~3:00PM? – The housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house. The door was locked and nobody answered.
  • 3:04PM – JM paid for purchases at Home Depot (per time stamp of purchase receipt).
  • 3:30PM – JM arrived back at Bob’s house from Home Depot, and the housekeeper was sitting on the porch, waiting to be let in. She told JM the door was locked and nobody was answering, and that Harrod might be taking a nap. JM then went into the house to check, and Harrod was not there. JM told the housekeeper his father-in-law might have gone to visit a neighbor, police say
  • Time? – Housekeeper cleaned and left the house.
  • 6:00PM – JM left the house and headed home to Running Springs.
  • ~7:30-8:00PM? - JM arrived home in Running Springs.
  • 8:00PM? – F called Bob’s house but he didn’t answer. She called every 20 minutes
  • Evening - Bob’s daughter JM, SIL’s wife, called the house, and there was no answer. She called her sisters, RB and PB.
  • Evening – Daughter R called Placentia Police to do a welfare check at the residence. Officers found the house empty.
  • Night - Daughter J called F in MO and said Bob was missing.
  • Night/Early AM - F filed a missing person’s report with the PPD.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=67544
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=6939639

So we're talking about a 20 minute window when Bob can disappear. It would seem that if he was taken, it would have to be someone really familiar with that timetable to take him when he's home alone.
 
BBM. Ok now I am really confused. According to the above information Bobs children would have not gained anything with this bypass trust their mother left until after their father passed away. So what was the urgency? If I am reading this correctly nothing was 'rightfully the daughters' until BOTH parents were deceased at which time the assets would belong to whom the first parent- their mother assigned to or left to them.


Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? :(

Yeppers!
 
So we're talking about a 20 minute window when Bob can disappear. It would seem that if he was taken, it would have to be someone really familiar with that timetable to take him when he's home alone.

Exactly.

Mr. Harrod knew the housekeeper was coming so he would not have left his house right before she is due to arrive.
 
I see that there is some activity on Robert Harrod's Facebook page.Great!!!!! Dreamweaver, is this you? I am not a friend so I cant see much. I think it needs to be made public so more people can see it and perhaps someone will come forward that knows SOMETHING!!
 
I'm slowly making my way through thread one and the media links.

Posted on pg 4 in thread one. (forgot whose post, sorry!)


The three daughters told police initially they suspected Bob Harrod's barber – a woman who attended their mother's funeral in 2008 – of some connection with the disappearance. Police have cleared the barber and her husband of any connection with the case.


full article at link:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

also at link:
-Harrod spoke to several people on his home telephone the day he disappeared. Police seized those phone records, and they aren't giving out the numbers to anyone.

-Loomis said simple logic would dictate that Bob Harrod's money would be the motive for someone to get rid of him, which would hypothetically connect Harrod's daughters to the disappearance. But Jeff Michaels' story checks out, and neither he nor any of the daughters are suspects in the disappearance, Loomis said.

Ok, LE could verify JM's timeline at least two ways.... by whom Bob spoke during the day prior to going missing. In addition to the dated receipts.

When was the last time Monday someone other than JM spoke with Bob?
Did LE check the phone records of those Bob spoke to in order to determine if any calls to Cab company or limo were made by someone Bob spoke to on Monday?
 
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