GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #3

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am starting to wonder if IF called his sister, and then she and/or her boyfriend either called/told Crystal and Barney about the "break-in"? Did IF even talk to Crystal? As for the whole freaking out comment, IF could have just claimed that Leila was freaking out on the phone, it doesn't mean that the sister and her boyfriend actually heard her freaking out.

I also noticed that Crystal is now referred to as the fiancee in the media, since after the arrest happened. Makes me wonder if that's some form of image control?[/QUOTE]

Yep-I noticed that as well. It does seem strange calling the mother of his 2 youngest children and the "acting" step-mother to the other children his "girlfriend." Fiancee does sound a lot better and more "permanant."

It's an awkward situation-you don't want to offend anyone who is actively parenting a child, but at the same time, the media needs to be accurate in its descriptions of people and use legal titles. I am not sure if Crystal has any legal ties to the children, i.e. guardianship, etc...

There just seems to have to be a better terminology to describe her. Can someone help me out here? What is the fancy term for when a CEO or a mayor is out of office and someone is filling in for them and is the acting CEO or mayor? I want to say "pro temp" but that doesn't sound right either. :confused:
 
I think that we are definitely reading too much into the actual 911 call to make any reasonable understanding of what went on there. We have several different conversations going on at once, it seems to me. It sounds to me like we have Crystal on the phone with 911 operator. At the very beginning of the call, it sounds to me that she had been talking to highway patrol (which likely picked up the call from the cell phone) and that was the end of the conversation before the transfer to the local 911 operator. It sounded to me that the first dispatcher was giving directions to another dispatcher that was there with her. I would assume that they were getting someone out to the house at that time-then they hooked up with the local dispatcher. If you notice, the local dispatcher never gets an address, so it is safe to assume that the first dispatcher got the address and the 2nd dispatcher was informed that help was on the way. While Crystal is on the phone with 911, you can hear a man's voice in the background saying "it's ok...they're on the way...it's alright...etc.." It is difficult to make out his actual words,but I am assuming it is the daughter's boyfriend in the car with Crystal and he is talking to the 12 year old on the phone. It sounds to me that the boyfriend was trying to reassure the boy that help was on the way.

Another interesting tidbit I picked up on the call was that Crystal stated that there was a man that came in the house, the daughter screamed, and then there was a man that was seen in front of their house who then ran away.

At the very end of the 911 call, you can hear Crystal tell the daughter's boyfriend to hang up the phone because 911 was going to call the house.

I have heard many people ask why Barney didn't make the 911 call-I would imagine that he was frantically trying to keep his eyes on the road as he was driving the car to get home as fast as possible. I am wondering where the little ones were? And the other little brother. Did another parent volunteer to watch them at the field while the parents fled with the daughter and boyfriend in the car? I hope the little ones didn't witness anything at the house. I would imagine that would have been so scary for them. :(

But I don't think there is any great mystery that has been solved here really. We have to see if we get any additional evidence. I recall at the earliest part of the story breaking, we heard that the boy saw the intruder, pursued him for a bit and ran him off-then went back inside to check on the sister to see if she was ok and found her bleeding to death. This actually could very well coincide with the 911 call. He called his parents to let them know that an intruder was in the house. They called 911 on another phone while the boyfriend kept him on the phone. He could have found Leila at some point after they hung up the call. When did he "discover" her? Was it during the call that the 911 operator called to the house? Did she have him check on his sister during the call to make sure she was ok and then he "found" her and freaked out on the phone? That is a huge chunk of evidence we do not have at our disposal and probably never will.

Side note: what the lawyer says can possibly make sense-that the boy made up the part about pursuing the intruder, when he actually just hid inside the bathroom scared and didn't want anyone to think he was a coward. If LE's main evidence is the boy lying, rather than forensics, that may be a big hole in the state's case. But I would imagine they have more than just that. But it is a piece and typically, attornies generally break apart a states case piece by piece.

I can pretty much guarantee they have way more evidence than just the boy lied.

LE said the day they found her that they believed they had DNA. That was before any testing was done. How would they know the difference between her blood and his just by looking?

I keep thinking about the DNA. LE knew that day they had DNA. They had to have visually been able to differentiate that the DNA was from the perpetrator. It wasn't cast off or dripping blood, cause that could have been hers. It could have been skin under the nails. But usually if there is a stabbing, the victim will place her hand or hands over the place that hurts. Which means blood would obscure the skin under the nails.

So what DNA did they find that they automatically knew was from the attacker?

Blood droplets on HIS clothes or body that DNA showed was Leila's.

A question,
Did LE confirm that, the 12 year olds boy fingerprint/blood and Leila's blood were the ONLY two fingerprints/blood that they find in Leila's bedroom?
If so, then chances that the 12 year olds boy did it is very likely, IF there no other traces of "someone" else was in the bedroom. That means, there only 2 of them, so the most likely the brother did it.
Or....the killer are very good at clean up all the fingerprint/blood and leave Nothing!

Since he lives there, his fingerprints in his sisters room tell us nothing. And no way there were only two sets of prints. The parents and other siblings undoubtedly enter that room.


respectfully snipped an bbm

I'm surprised you find 18 days fast. There is a case here on WS about April Jones in the UK. She went missing on Oct 1 last year. Less than 24 hours later someone was arrested. There was no evidence such as DNA, fingerprints etc, available before his arrest, yet an arrest warrant was issued. The only things they did have was an eye witness - a 7 year old girl who saw April climbing into a car that could have been his, and possibly they saw blood during a search with luminol of his house which they had entered in the morning before his arrest. That's all they had when they issued an arrest warrant. They were right, he actually confessed while being arrested, and forensics has tied him to the crime afterwards. But when the arrest warrant was issued they had no proof.

It looks to me in this case (Leila Foweler) they must have had at least the same amount of pointers when they arrived at the house of the Fowlers. Is procedure so different in the UK than in the US? Do they really have to wait 2 weeks for DNA and fingerprints and what not to be confirmed before making an arrest? It's hard to believe. Is circumstantial evidence not enough for probable cause?

Maybe the neighbour's story really threw the investigation off track.



bbm - maybe it wasn't blood nor skin. Maybe it was hair, or ... some other fluid, iykwim?

You missed a word: "Relatively". Most arrests for murder are within 24 hours because evidence is obvious. Without obvious evidence, 18 days is pretty fast.
 
I am starting to wonder if IF called his sister, and then she and/or her boyfriend either called/told Crystal and Barney about the "break-in"? Did IF even talk to Crystal? As for the whole freaking out comment, IF could have just claimed that Leila was freaking out on the phone, it doesn't mean that the sister and her boyfriend actually heard her freaking out.

I also noticed that Crystal is now referred to as the fiancee in the media, since after the arrest happened. Makes me wonder if that's some form of image control?


Found this, I think your right.


CRYSTAL WALTERS: My daughter’s boyfriend is on the phone with them right now. They said they’re OK, but I need to get someone.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013...as-brother-charged-with-second-degree-murder/
 
LE said the day they found her that they believed they had DNA. That was before any testing was done. How would they know the difference between her blood and his just by looking?

I keep thinking about the DNA. LE knew that day they had DNA. They had to have visually been able to differentiate that the DNA was from the perpetrator. It wasn't cast off or dripping blood, cause that could have been hers. It could have been skin under the nails. But usually if there is a stabbing, the victim will place her hand or hands over the place that hurts. Which means blood would obscure the skin under the nails.

So what DNA did they find that they automatically knew was from the attacker?

*****
Following up on my theory that the son burned his clothes after the murder:

The cops may have found freshly burned ashes in the fireplace with remnants of the boy's clothes. It's already been reported that they took firewood from the garage as evidence. They may have found blood drops or blood smears on the firewood in the garage. This would be telltale evidence that the murderer touched the wood after the stabbing, whether the blood was his or Leila's. (Of course after confirming with everyone in the family that no one had bled before touching the firewood).

This would give rise to the investigators' statement soon afterwards that they 'had DNA' evidence!

What do you guys think?? :websleuther:
 
I want to hear the call that LE placed to IF. That's the one I want to hear, has that been released yet?
 
Perhaps she is asking to be called the fiancé, rather than step-mother, in a way to distance herself from IF? If indeed the change is not simply a media thing, which seems more likely.
 
Thanks! So then the earlier question posed here is quite valid: how did they immediately know that they had DNA other than hers that implicated the perp?

The day that the story broke it was reported in the news that there was dna and fingerprints at the scene. I believe he left his fingerprints in blood; myself due to the statements they made that day. Because he is a minor details will be hard to get; but the breaking news that day he was arrested was the dna and prints matching him and inconsistencies in his story given to LE. Since that aired, Usually I watch cnn or hln; so that is what was reported. This is what I heard on the day of the arrest; and it was short lived due to him being a minor. Jmho and what my ears heard that day on the news! It's my impression that he left prints all around that room; and elsewhere in the house that did NOT fly with the "story" he was giving to LE.
 
Is it possible that they took two different cars to the game? Maybe one car had Barney in it...another car had Crystal, the daughter, and her boyfriend in it? If I counted correctly, if everyone but Leila and IF went to the game, that would be eight people. I really feel like the sister and her boyfriend were in the same car as Crystal, and were relaying information they were getting from IF to her. If Barney was in the car too, you would think he would be the one talking to IF on the phone. It's interesting to me that there's no mention of Barney.

I am also wondering if they were already driving home when they got the call from IF?
 
I was thinking about what the attorney said on Twitter about no weapon. If he hasn't been given any evidence how does he know that?
 
Is it possible that they took two different cars to the game? Maybe one car had Barney in it...another car had Crystal, the daughter, and her boyfriend in it? If I counted correctly, if everyone but Leila and IF went to the game, that would be eight people. I really feel like the sister and her boyfriend were in the same car as Crystal, and were relaying information they were getting from IF to her. If Barney was in the car too, you would think he would be the one talking to IF on the phone. It's interesting to me that there's no mention of Barney.

I am also wondering if they were already driving home when they got the call from IF?

It would actually be 7 people in the car-I don't think the oldest son was there. So Barney (driving,) Crystal, older daughter, boyfriend, 10ish year old son and the 2 babies. That said, I am still hoping they left the 3 youngest back at the field with friends so they didn't have to witness the horror at the house.

Plus, I am thinking it is likely because if they got the call at the field-they would just want to jump in the car and take off rather than having to strap 2 little ones into car seats, etc...
 
Close to death - would she still be screaming then and freaking out? When you bleed out you get very weak and woozy before you eventually lose consciousness.

What a weird story. Do we know exactly when IF called the CF? Was it right before she called 911?

no she wouldn't...so i agree.

not sure if this has been covered in the last 45 pages but i'll throw it out there. my best guess is that the little league game was at 10:30. AA teams 1-4 played then, at field 3, the clay pits right in town, 4 miles from rippon road. the other, higher level teams played at 8am and 1pm so the 10:30 slot is all that fits (links below). little league can be anywhere from 45 minutes to two/three hours depending on if it's a practice, scrimmage, a full 9 innnings, etc...but our games average 1 1/2 hrs so, questions:

1) did he know that they'd be arriving home sometime at or after noon and that's why he was forced to make the call? ...as in, time was running out to make this look like an accident/intruder?

2) dad, 'mom', sister, sister's bf, we can assume the other children including the baseball player...seems like a family outing doesn't it? in a minivan i hope. wonder why these two either chose or were told to stay home? did they account for the whereabouts for every single one of the above from that morning?

3) the 911 call was at 12:13. the parents/sibling(s) would've made it home lickety-split, i'd say around 12:30 at the latest. she arrived at the hospital by 12:55. there was no time to reorganize the crime scene. and if he burned clothing, an obvioius stench would still be in the air, no?

i can't shake that someone else was involved.

http://foothillslittleleague.com/teams/aa/mudcats/
http://www.eteamz.com/FoothillsLL/locations/

http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=38.193925&lon=-120.827894&z=16&m=b&permpoly=3012740

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&b...a=X&ei=oXeTUcSIE7jd4AOq_4DgCA&ved=0CEwQ8gEwBA
 
It would actually be 7 people in the car-I don't think the oldest son was there. So Barney (driving,) Crystal, older daughter, boyfriend, 10ish year old son and the 2 babies. That said, I am still hoping they left the 3 youngest back at the field with friends so they didn't have to witness the horror at the house.

Plus, I am thinking it is likely because if they got the call at the field-they would just want to jump in the car and take off rather than having to strap 2 little ones into car seats, etc...

But they didn't know at the time that there was horror at the house. They thought it was just a break-in.
 
Anyone happen to know what time the baseball game started? That way, if we know that, we'd maybe be able to figure out a possible time line.


My son has played Little League for the last 4 yrs., and has had to be at his games 30 minutes prior to the start of the game. So, for example, if the Fowlers game started at 10:30, then they'd have to be there at 10am. If they live within 10 minutes from the ballpark then maybe they left around 9:40am.( to allow for parking, unloading kids, etc). I'm not sure how far they live from the park, I was just using that as an example.
That leaves around 2 hours 35 minutes from when they left until 911 was called.

If the 911 call was made at 12:13(I can't remember the exact time,off hand), then that would leave a relatively short window of opportunity for the following: to have something happen that would cause him to stab/kill her, then try to clean up and shower, call parents etc. Plus I'm thinking that he could have possibly gone into shock after killing her. He could have been freaking out for a bit, trying to grasp what had just happened.

** I'm only saying he cleaned up/showered because that's what I've read some people here saying. I don't know for certain that he showered or even tried to clean up, for that matter. I was just using that in my example. I honestly haven't read it anywhere that there were signs of possible clean up.***
 
The day that the story broke it was reported in the news that there was dna and fingerprints at the scene. I believe he left his fingerprints in blood; myself due to the statements they made that day. Because he is a minor details will be hard to get; but the breaking news that day he was arrested was the dna and prints matching him and inconsistencies in his story given to LE. Since that aired, Usually I watch cnn or hln; so that is what was reported. This is what I heard on the day of the arrest; and it was short lived due to him being a minor. Jmho and what my ears heard that day on the news! It's my impression that he left prints all around that room; and elsewhere in the house that did NOT fly with the "story" he was giving to LE.

Well fingerprints in blood would tell us a lot. Smart thought.
 
But they didn't know at the time that there was horror at the house. They thought it was just a break-in.

Oh yes-I realize that-but they would have been in a hurry. I am just hoping that is the case, that they were in such a hurry, they left the little ones at the field so they didn't witness the horror. Not that they left them at the field to shield them from the horror.
 
Anyone happen to know what time the baseball game started? That way, if we know that, we'd maybe be able to figure out a possible time line.


My son has played Little League for the last 4 yrs., and has had to be at his games 30 minutes prior to the start of the game. So, for example, if the Fowlers game started at 10:30, then they'd have to be there at 10am. If they live within 10 minutes from the ballpark then maybe they left around 9:40am.( to allow for parking, unloading kids, etc). I'm not sure how far they live from the park, I was just using that as an example.
That leaves around 2 hours 35 minutes from when they left until 911 was called.

If the 911 call was made at 12:13(I can't remember the exact time,off hand), then that would leave a relatively short window of opportunity for the following: to have something happen that would cause him to stab/kill her, then try to clean up and shower, call parents etc. Plus I'm thinking that he could have possibly gone into shock after killing her. He could have been freaking out for a bit, trying to grasp what had just happened.

** I'm only saying he cleaned up/showered because that's what I've read some people here saying. I don't know for certain that he showered or even tried to clean up, for that matter. I was just using that in my example. I honestly haven't read it anywhere that there were signs of possible clean up.***

You're lucky!!! Our coaches want the kids there an hour before game time. Looking at the younger boy's age, I am thinking it was his game (the babies seem to be too young for anything more than t-ball at best.) My 10 year old son's games have a 2 hour limit and they can't start an inning past 1:45 mark of the game. Typically, the games last the full 2 hours, if not longer. If there is a mercy-rule the game may end earlier, but at this age, they typically play 6 innings and with the level of pitching at that age (all over the place!) the innings take a long time and often times are called due to the time limits. If the game is at 10:30, I really do not see them in the car on the way home before 12:13 Usually, people hang out after the game, the coaches give a bit of a talk, the kids have a snack, parents gather around and chat, etc... (and don't forget that was the time of the transfer call.) There was a call from the boy to Crystal first. Then an initial call to 911 that was picked up by highway patrol and then that call was transferred to the local dispatch. The original call may have very well come in from the boy a bit sooner than that, perhaps about 12:05-12:10.

I think the call was made from the boy when they were all still at the field.

Also-a standard minivan only holds 7 people. There wasn't enough room for Leila and the 12 year old (just guessing) and they stayed home. Maybe they wanted to watch TV, had homework to do, had chores, or just didn't really feel like going. Who knows.
 
Found this, I think your right.


CRYSTAL WALTERS: My daughter’s boyfriend is on the phone with them right now. They said they’re OK, but I need to get someone.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013...as-brother-charged-with-second-degree-murder/

I took it to mean that the older sister was freaking out at the thought of an intruder being in the house while her little brother and sister were home alone. And when crystal said that They said they're ok, I took it to mean that sister/boyfriend are the THEY she is referring to.


My interpretation of the call is that IF was in bathroom and heard LF scream. And perhaps he called parents but they didn't answer so he called older sister. Then the older sister called one of the parents. SHE is freaking out.So lets say that the sister is talking to Barney while Crystal calls 911. I picture BOTH parents on their phones at the same time. One with 911 and one with older sister and then possibly IF. Just my opinion, of course:)
 
"How does a 12-year-old commit the perfect crime?" said Reichel, whose firm was part of a team that two years ago successfully defended members of the Hmong community, including former Gen. Vang Pao, against charges they plotted to overthrow the government of Laos. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=9103367

LOL I have never thought this was the perfect crime. Good luck selling that one!
 
I took it to mean that the older sister was freaking out at the thought of an intruder being in the house while her little brother and sister were home alone. And when crystal said that They said they're ok, I took it to mean that sister/boyfriend are the THEY she is referring to.


My interpretation of the call is that IF was in bathroom and heard LF scream. And perhaps he called parents but they didn't answer so he called older sister. Then the older sister called one of the parents. SHE is freaking out.So lets say that the sister is talking to Barney while Crystal calls 911. I picture BOTH parents on their phones at the same time. One with 911 and one with older sister and then possibly IF. Just my opinion, of course:)

If you listen to the 911 call again, you can hear what sounds like the boyfriend in the background talking to what is likely the boy on the other end of the phone. You can hear him say "it's alright...they're on the way..."
 
"How does a 12-year-old commit the perfect crime?" said Reichel, whose firm was part of a team that two years ago successfully defended members of the Hmong community, including former Gen. Vang Pao, against charges they plotted to overthrow the government of Laos. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=9103367

LOL I have never thought this was the perfect crime. Good luck selling that one!

Uhhhh....doesn't he mean how does this ~*intruder commit the perfect crime?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
82
Guests online
2,269
Total visitors
2,351

Forum statistics

Threads
602,250
Messages
18,137,542
Members
231,281
Latest member
omnia
Back
Top