GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Tennlyn]

Well, no one is missing in Leila's case either-never has been anyone missing. Both cases have a suspect, also a family member, in custody. Both of the suspects are charged with the crimes, yet neither has been brought to trial yet. Both suspects have "lawyered up" and both are due their due process.

Yet, in this thread, it seems as though many are more intent on seeking justice against a 12 year old than a grown woman who is accused of killing her own son.

It just scares me that there are more people in this forum bent on revenge for IF than on the mother in the other case. :scared:

BBM
I'm concerned with getting IF the help he needs, whether he is innocent & grieving or guilty & disturbed. IMO, it seems his attorney is more interested in his reputation than his client. :banghead:

I'm also following (although not really posting on) the case in Utah where the 15-yo killed 2 of his little brothers. I'm glad to see that family trying to get their son some psychological help! :moo:

 

[thefragile7393]

BBM.

One of them is currently in prison, the other hasn't re-offended in 20 years, so obviously rehabilitation was succesful in his case.

That remains to be seen. Nothing is.reported....sooo that means nothing has happened? Many people commit crimes and don't get caught or reported. He still has a nice full life ahead and could still re-offend. His original new alias was leaked and he had to be moved and a new alias given so who knows what he is doing under this name.Sorry but after that violent a crime I would never ever take my chances around him. People who torture and abuse a child have something seriously wrong and never completely rehabilitate. That kind of stuff needs to be locked away, un-PC that it is.
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[Cappuccino]

History proves you wrong, I'm afraid. There are plenty of examples of children who do terrible things when they're very young themselves, and grow up to be normal, law abiding members of society. Your grasp of the details of the Bulger case is confused anyway - Thompson's alias was never leaked, that was Venables who is in prison. Even if it was, the authorities always know where he is, so if he had re-offended he'd be back in prison too.

Luckily, IF - assuming he's guilty - has been caught young enough that he makes a good candidate for rehabiltitation, as other case histories show us. That's lucky, because he'll be walking the streets again as a very young man regardless of what anybody here thinks.

 

[thefragile7393]

History proves you wrong, I'm afraid. There are plenty of examples of children who do terrible things when they're very young themselves, and grow up to be normal, law abiding members of society. Your grasp of the details of the Bulger case is confused anyway - Thompson's alias was never leaked, that was Venables who is in prison. Even if it was, the authorities always know where he is, so if he had re-offended he'd be back in prison too.

Luckily, IF - assuming he's guilty - has been caught young enough that he makes a good candidate for rehabiltitation, as other case histories show us. That's lucky, because he'll be walking the streets again as a very young man regardless of what anybody here thinks.

Lololol ok it could be one of the Jonesboro boys that had an alias leaked...someone in one of those cases did....sorry, I follow many cases. Although unless you know his new alias...how would you know if they are in prison or not? Unless you have a link with stats to back up your statement that history proves me wrong then it is an opinion, nothing more. My work history with both types of juvenile offenders in both the juvenile corrections area and juvenile mental health facilities has shown me I know what I am talking about, as I have seen things that would make people's hair curl. I have seen the same violent offenders re offend has adults time and time again.There are always exceptions to the rule but by and large this is what I have seen in my line of work with my own eyes. I never said that juvenile offenders cannot be re-habbed. I have said that the most violent ones usually cannot fully I will.stand by that. Condescending attitudes are not needed.

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[Cappuccino]

Although unless you know his new alias...how would you know if they are in prison or not?

Venables is in prison having had his licence revoked in 2010 after being caught with child *advertiser censored*, that was widely reported at the time. Thompson was one of the victims of News International's phone hacking activities, so given that he was being routinely eavesdropped on, stalked and generally spied upon by the scandal hungry vultures of the tabloid press I'm fairly sure we'd know if he'd dropped a piece of litter in the street, never mind been re-arrested.

There are plenty of examples of children who kill and are rehabilitated. Thompson is just one, Mary Bell, the 10 year old San Francisco crucifix killer, the two Norwegian boys who killed a girl, Barrett and Bradley. In fact, of all the people who have killed as children and are caught and dealt with at that stage the ones who kill as adults are the rare exception.

 

[gitana1]

Husband says wife killed their son, then shot herself near Steamboat Springs - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

You know what makes me really sad??? There are so many people in here discussing this case against a 12 year old, yet I'm talking to myself in another thread about a mother who killed her only child, an innocent, amazing little boy, to exact revenge against her husband.

Just my two cents.

Do you know how many parents murder their children?

Do you know how many kids kill period?

That's why there is such heavy interest in this case. And please do not project a desire for "revenge" onto others who may not feel the same way you do. I think few on here want "revenge": Many aren't sure he is guilty or is totally responsible, either due to pressure of another or his age, some are just fascinated with the debate about what makes a kid kill and whether such a kid is able to be rehabilitated and the rest are simply wanting justice for a dead little girl or to make sure a natural born killer isn't freed to hurt society again.

Venables is in prison having had his licence revoked in 2010 after being caught with child *advertiser censored*, that was widely reported at the time. Thompson was one of the victims of News International's phone hacking activities, so given that he was being routinely eavesdropped on, stalked and generally spied upon by the scandal hungry vultures of the tabloid press I'm fairly sure we'd know if he'd dropped a piece of litter in the street, never mind been re-arrested.

There are plenty of examples of children who kill and are rehabilitated. Thompson is just one, Mary Bell, the 10 year old San Francisco crucifix killer, the two Norwegian boys who killed a girl, Barrett and Bradley. In fact, of all the people who have killed as children and are caught and dealt with at that stage the ones who kill as adults are the rare exception.

There were two boys who killed little Noah and tied him to a crucifix. They were brothers. One has been convicted - twice - of abusig his children, including a 3 month old child: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/little/readings/crucifixion.html
As far as the Norwegian boys, one got into trouble as an adult.

Of all the kids who killed as children, we don;t know the amount who have killed as adults because some may have gotten away with murder.

However, I do think that kids are mostly reformable. I think they may do things as children, impulsively and without a full understanding of permanence, consequences, or grief, that they would never conceive of as adults.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

To show how rare this case is:

According to FBI statistics, there were only 14 children between the ages of 9-12 who committed murder in 2011.

There were only 19 cases in 2010 where a brother killed his sister. 5 of those 19 cases involve a knife as the murder weapon.


Source: http://projects.wsj.com/murderdata

 

[MLO]

I think people are fascinated with cases like this because there are so many valuable lessons to be learned. I KNOW I have to be aware of keeping my children safe from strangers, from teachers, from family members, he'll, even from my husband and myself. But before this case, I never once considered having to keep my kids safe from each other.

It's obviously a horrible case, but it could be a real learning opportunity. Can we spot the potential to kill in our children while they ate young? Can we spot it in our neighbours? Can we prevent it? Can we prevent them from growing up to be serial killers if we spot it early enough?

During Jessica Ridgeway's case the talk of psychopaths made me look into it and then look at my own kids. I noticed that my 5 year seemed to have no conscience or remorse. It scared the bejesus out of me. I asked him if he ever felt bad about doing the wrong this and he said "no, why would I". My 9 year old mentioned that she thought he had no conscience (quietly to me). My DH and I planned to watch him for a month and then seek help. Thankfully the next week head a dream he accidentally hurt our old cat and was hysterical for days. He took extra special care of her and was very protective of her from then on. A few weeks later he became a vegetarian because he considers the idea of eating an animal are horrendous as eating a human. He now wants to be an animal rights advocate and talks non stop about conservation. Point being, studying child killers led me to examine the kids in my life and monitor potential issues and to consider treatment early on ifit was deemed necessary.

 

[itsreenw]

I am so sorry, I did miss the post...will do my best

Dinaslala, Thank you for replying. My replies back to you are in red...

Originally Posted by itsreenw
Dinaslala, I've posted a couple times asking for your insight and knowledge about some things as a verified member on this thread and a friend of P's. Perhaps you didn't see my posts so I'll ask the same questions here:

This was my last post:

Does P have family in N. CA?
Yes she has a couple of family members that she is close to, but not super close by..

Wondering if L&I ever had a relationship with their maternal grandparents and aunts and uncles, etc...

Unfortunately no..her father passed away years ago and B wasnt pro active in helping them to see other family...
For clarification, B wasn't proactive in helping P and the kids see the maternal relatives while they were together or he has not been proactive in the kids seeing them since the break-up?

and if her family is comforting her at this time when she certainly must need support.
They do what they can, when they can.. thankfully.. and yes they did attend L's funeral
Were they able to talk to I?

Did you know her before she fell on hard times?
Yes, I've known her half her life
What has she said over the last few years about what happened in famiy court or about her attempts to get the kids? From what I know from living in CA, it's really unusual here for a judge in any county to award full custody to a father unless the mother is on drugs, a habitual criminal or just plain unfit. B managed to get custody of his kids from two women. I'd sure love to know how he pulled that off.

Has she shared why/who kept her from attending the funeral?
BF kept her from attending.. because he could..plain, pure and simple
IMO**As if she didn't deserve or earn the right to be there because of the living situation she could not provide for them..

But how could he do that?? Is there a stay away order or restraining order on file? Did he intimidate her into staying away? Did the police show up and turn her away?


As a matter of fact he still refuses to let her visit him (I) in the detention center.
And before everyone goes off about the legality of it, yes, he can do this..
We looked into it with an atty and if I could raise the money and retain her services, I would in a heartbeat. No she does'nt NEED one to change the orders but with something like this I think we all can agree it would be BEST if she did.
She can attend his juvenile court hearings but not visit him or attend their daughter's funeral? When did he go to court and get that order put in place? Have you read her court orders to see if something is being misinterpreted?

She does need some legal assistance. This doesn't sound right. There should be a legal aide office there that can help her for free.

P said she is on disability but she also said she is looking for a job. I didn't think you could have both.

If she can work, I'm sure there is someone willing to give her an opportunity to get back on her feet. Can you help her with a resume? If not, I will gladly help her put one together.

Last question...if her circumstances take a positive turn and she becomes more stable than B...is she willing to have "I" come home to her if the court allows it?

TIA

 

[Indy Anna]

Dinaslala, Thank you for replying. My replies back to you are in red...

P said she is on disability but she also said she is looking for a job. I didn't think you could have both.

If she can work, I'm sure there is someone willing to give her an opportunity to get back on her feet. Can you help her with a resume? If not, I will gladly help her put one together.

Last question...if her circumstances take a positive turn and she becomes more stable than B...is she willing to have "I" come home to her if the court allows it?

TIA

BBM
I can answer part of you post.

A person can work part time while receiving disability. I'm not sure how many hours per week is the limit while on disability. Many people with disabilities are not capable of putting in enough hours per week to fully support themselves/their families, but want to be productive in the community. I, for one, am glad there's that option (it's a last resort for me).

There should be vocational rehabilitation services available to P at the state employment office. They can help her with her resume, finding job leads and obtaining any special provisions she might need to hold a job.

You will have to get the rest from Dinaslala, but maybe Dinaslala can pass on the info about voc rehab to P if she doesn't already know about it.

:seeya:

 

[Indy Anna]

Respectfully, you're right we don't know but I would like to know how the court came to the conclusion that he was the better parent for these children to reside with. Not saying he isn't, not saying he is, it's just one I would have liked to have sat in on. Not for the excitement, because in child custody cases I've never found that, nor have I been looking for it. I like the pieces, all of them, to try and figure out quite possibly how this happened.
PR has been portrayed by some as less than a good parent because she doesn't have custody. I've seen enough court cases to know that some fathers have received custody that should have never in a million years and the same with mothers.
To say that "its all quite titillating. IMO its also quite ugly and unnecessary" I disagree.

MOO

BBM
It really depends upon what the judge perceives makes a good parent. I know a woman who lost custody of her kids to her ex after a lengthy custody battle. The ex walked out on the family and initially had nothing to do with the kids, but knew that taking the kids away from the woman would hurt her. Judges would award primary custody to the woman, but the ex kept taking her back to court. The woman had a steady job, but was running out of money to continue fighting. The ex had a higher-paying job and he had re-married. The last judge they faced decided that the father was a better provider because he had a 2-parent household and a higher income. At that point, the oldest child (12) was deemed old enough to choose which parent he wanted to live with and chose his dad because the dad was making the kids a lot of promises, like buying them some fancy toys. The mother did get limited custody of the kids in that case.

It's very plausible that a judge would not award custody to a single parent who is homeless, unemployed and disabled because the judge takes into consideration the environment the children would be living in and the ability of the parent to provide for the children. While it's plausible, it's not entirely fair since it's not the material things that make a family.

 

[Cappuccino]

There were two boys who killed little Noah and tied him to a crucifix. They were brothers. One has been convicted - twice - of abusig his children, including a 3 month old child: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ucifixion.html
As far as the Norwegian boys, one got into trouble as an adult.

Roughly 50% of people who kill as children go on to commit lesser offenses or have other social problems, (alcoholism, drugs, etc), as adults. The other 50% go on to have normal lives. Instances where someone who has killed as a child, been caught and dealt with at that stage, and then gone on to kill as an adult are very rare. The only one I can think of offhand is Jesse Pomeroy, although there may be a handful more.

Of all the kids who killed as children, we don;t know the amount who have killed as adults because some may have gotten away with murder.

I don't really see much point in looking at it from that point of view because you could say that about any section of the population. For all you know I've gotten away with murder, and for all I know you have. We can only draw conclusions from facts we have evidence for.

 

[white rabbit]

apologies if this was posted; i hadn't seen it. dated 6/7/13...

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/...cle_fda11a50-cf92-11e2-b226-001a4bcf887a.html

"Why has the story for the Leila Fowler murder gone cold? It has been well over a week since anything new was written or said about this horrific case. Is your paper under pressure to keep things quiet? If so, why? If not, why the “radio silence”?

It appears that there is much more to this case. Can’t think of any questions to ponder? Here’s a few:

How did a 12 year old cover up a murder well enough to convince the local public that the “boogieman” was on the loose? 2. How did a 12 year old keep his story straight for two weeks? 3. When was the 12 year old read his rights? 4. How did the home entry go when the sheriff’s deputies arrived? 5. How many times have CPS, or whatever it may be called in Calaveras, get called previously to this home? 6. Did the parents help with the cover up? 7. If so, are they culpable? 8. If so, are they monetarily culpable to the people of California for the 2,000 man hours Sheriff Gary Kuntz stated were used in the investigation? 9. When the search for the “boogieman” was immediately fruitless, how long did it take to transfer the investigation to the “Occam’s Razor” suspect? 10. What could the detainment or imprisonment play out for this 12 year old be if he’s found responsible?"

(snipped)

 

[Cappuccino]

I think people are fascinated with cases like this because there are so many valuable lessons to be learned. I KNOW I have to be aware of keeping my children safe from strangers, from teachers, from family members, he'll, even from my husband and myself. But before this case, I never once considered having to keep my kids safe from each other.

It's obviously a horrible case, but it could be a real learning opportunity. Can we spot the potential to kill in our children while they ate young? Can we spot it in our neighbours? Can we prevent it? Can we prevent them from growing up to be serial killers if we spot it early enough?

During Jessica Ridgeway's case the talk of psychopaths made me look into it and then look at my own kids. I noticed that my 5 year seemed to have no conscience or remorse. It scared the bejesus out of me. I asked him if he ever felt bad about doing the wrong this and he said "no, why would I". My 9 year old mentioned that she thought he had no conscience (quietly to me). My DH and I planned to watch him for a month and then seek help. Thankfully the next week head a dream he accidentally hurt our old cat and was hysterical for days. He took extra special care of her and was very protective of her from then on. A few weeks later he became a vegetarian because he considers the idea of eating an animal are horrendous as eating a human. He now wants to be an animal rights advocate and talks non stop about conservation. Point being, studying child killers led me to examine the kids in my life and monitor potential issues and to consider treatment early on ifit was deemed necessary.

Your 5 year old sounds completely normal to me. Conscience and empathy aren't born fully formed, they grow as the brain grows and aren't usually fully formed until after adolescence. I said that before in this thread and got accused of saying that people "suddenly grow a conscience in their teens." That's not what I meant at all, I was just pointing out that children can show psychopathic traits at a young age and then later on, when their brains are more developed, turn out not to be psychopathic after all.

Think of how many children - even normal children from loving homes - do things like pull the wings off butterflies, or stand around in circles chanting "fight, fight" while two of their classmates batter each other. If you saw adults behaving like that you'd be calling the police, but children often just don't know any better.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

apologies if this was posted; i hadn't seen it. dated 6/7/13...

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/...cle_fda11a50-cf92-11e2-b226-001a4bcf887a.html

"Why has the story for the Leila Fowler murder gone cold? It has been well over a week since anything new was written or said about this horrific case. Is your paper under pressure to keep things quiet? If so, why? If not, why the “radio silence”?

It appears that there is much more to this case. Can’t think of any questions to ponder? Here’s a few:

How did a 12 year old cover up a murder well enough to convince the local public that the “boogieman” was on the loose? 2. How did a 12 year old keep his story straight for two weeks? 3. When was the 12 year old read his rights? 4. How did the home entry go when the sheriff’s deputies arrived? 5. How many times have CPS, or whatever it may be called in Calaveras, get called previously to this home? 6. Did the parents help with the cover up? 7. If so, are they culpable? 8. If so, are they monetarily culpable to the people of California for the 2,000 man hours Sheriff Gary Kuntz stated were used in the investigation? 9. When the search for the “boogieman” was immediately fruitless, how long did it take to transfer the investigation to the “Occam’s Razor” suspect? 10. What could the detainment or imprisonment play out for this 12 year old be if he’s found responsible?"

(snipped)

It's pretty much the norm for cases to stop be reporting on when information stops coming in. I don't think there are many cases that get weeks of regular coverage after an arrest. I don't think there is pressure on the media to stay quiet. The information that this person wants answered....The media might not be able to get that information at this time without committing some shady acts. Of course I find it problematic that a case as rare as this one has already gone a week without any media coverage, when it hasn't even reached the two-month mark yet, but that doesn't really surprise me. I'm always looking for news about this case, and not much is coming up anymore...I'm on the fence about whether there's something "off" about that though.

ETA: I don't see how the lawyers would be able to put pressure on the media to stay quiet when they weren't even able to get the media to not use IF's name and picture. As for LE, I would think they would try to get a gag order if they wanted the media to stop reporting on the case.

 

[tlcya]

I do not find the lack of coverage unusual. The suspect being the minor family member of the victim is part of it. His minor status makes much of what information is out there off limits, even to the press. Most MSM news sources will not go the extra mile to dig up stuff their policies prevent them from publishing. Wasted effort.

If the victim family and the perp family (in this case one and the same) decide to stop speaking, and LE is busy assisting the DA in solidifying the case for prosecution, who is left to talk or give new information? The perp's school? Nope. Privacy rules prevent. CPS? Nope, same reason. LE about possible previous calls to the home? Nope not if that info goes to building the case against IF.

This is the norm IME and not some conspiracy by attorneys or the family or LE.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

BBM
I can answer part of you post.

A person can work part time while receiving disability. I'm not sure how many hours per week is the limit while on disability. Many people with disabilities are not capable of putting in enough hours per week to fully support themselves/their families, but want to be productive in the community. I, for one, am glad there's that option (it's a last resort for me).

There should be vocational rehabilitation services available to P at the state employment office. They can help her with her resume, finding job leads and obtaining any special provisions she might need to hold a job.

You will have to get the rest from Dinaslala, but maybe Dinaslala can pass on the info about voc rehab to P if she doesn't already know about it.

:seeya:

Thanks, Indy Anna--as I recall, it was part-time work she mentioned looking for (I can find the MSM link if needed).

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I do not find the lack of coverage unusual. The suspect being the minor family member of the victim is part of it. His minor status makes much of what information is out there off limits, even to the press. Most MSM news sources will not go the extra mile to dig up stuff their policies prevent them from publishing. Wasted effort.

If the victim family and the perp family (in this case one and the same) decide to stop speaking, and LE is busy assisting the DA in solidifying the case for prosecution, who is left to talk or give new information? The perp's school? Nope. Privacy rules prevent. CPS? Nope, same reason. LE about possible previous calls to the home? Nope not if that info goes to building the case against IF.

This is the norm IME and not some conspiracy by attorneys or the family or LE.

Actually, the only 'coverage' I've seen about the case lately is by the lawyer and/or the private investigator (tweeting and blogging answers to unknown questions about the case). Which surprises me...

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Actually, the only 'coverage' I've seen about the case lately is by the lawyer and/or the private investigator (tweeting and blogging answers to unknown questions about the case). Which surprises me...

I think the last development was on May 31 when IF pleaded not guilty, which was covered by many media outlets. I believe the only coverage since then was the People article on June 4. I think the silence is due to nothing new to report, and the media's short attention span. When there's a development, it will get plenty of coverage, but until then, the media has other stories to talk about. I really hope we get some new information before July 31st, though.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I think the last development was on May 31 when IF pleaded not guilty, which was covered by many media outlets. I believe the only coverage since then was the People article on June 4. I think the silence is due to nothing new to report, and the media's short attention span. When there's a development, it will get plenty of coverage, but until then, the media has other stories to talk about. I really hope we get some new information before July 31st, though.

Thanks for this. I worded that poorly; sorry. What I meant was that the lawyer's tweeting/blogging and answering anonymous questions pretrial surprised me. I think lack of media coverage at this stage is normal.