GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Ghostwheel]

I don't think IF knows how to drive a car.

But in all honesty, if there was an intruder, I would think he would be gone by the time the emergency vehicles arrived. Don lived within sight of the Fowlers' front door, so where did the car come from? It couldn't have been parked close to the house, so did the killer walk to his car, and then drive back to the neighborhood to scream to a neighbor?

Anyway, IF not telling his sister and her boyfriend on the phone that Leila had been stabbed tells me there was no intruder. Why would he delay medical care to her?

I am not sure where IF driving a car came from. I didn't say anything about IF driving a car. (Was that a joke and I missed it?:waitasec

If someone had gone out the back door or a window (don't know if this is possible), the car could have been parked down the road, in an empty house driveway (happens around here all the time), off the road, etc. The person then could have mixed in with the chaos and just exited out with no one thinking anything odd. (Again, this is how burglars exit around here if an alarm goes off, they dump the stuff, climb a few fences, retrieve their car from elsewhere and calmly drive off.) Besides, where did the car come from in any case? It came from somewhere. And went somewhere.

For your final query about IF not saying Leila was stabbed, maybe at that time he did not know. If he was cowering in a closet or bathroom, he might not have checked on his sister. My two siblings cowered in the bathroom when shot rang out in our neighborhood, so I know it happens. I could have been laying dead on the floor and they would have had no idea. They didn't come out until they heard the sirens stop across the street.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I think if it all happened super fast, then DM could easily be mistaken about whether the first man had a goatee or not. I imagine the whole encounter only took a few seconds and was most likely not direct face to face contact iykwim.

The description of the blood covered shirt matches the description, given by the other neighbour, of BF.

It's pretty obvious to me that the Fowlers were at the house before the paramedics. I wonder how long beforehand they got there? Anyone have a link to what time the paramedics arrived at the house? I believe we have estimated the Fowlers time of arrival to be around 12.23 pm, going by the distance they needed to travel from the game.

I'm not convinced that the older sister and her bf were with CW and BF when the 911 call was made. It's very possible that IF called the sister, who then called the parents, who in turn called 911.
All with no mention of poor Leila's injuries.

:moo::moo:

I agree with all this...except that when listening to the 911 tape, I thought I heard the voice of a young man talking on a phone (presumably to IF) saying that help was on its way. So, if that young man was the older girl's boyfriend, he likely was nearby during the 911 call that CW made.

 

[ozgirl70]

However....why would the sister and her boyfriend call Crystal for her to call 911? Why couldn't they call 911 themselves?

RSBM

Because they are teenagers, not adults. And because they were told that there 'had been' an intruder but that he had run off. There was no immediate danger so they did what all kids do and called a parent to deal with it.

The real question is... if IF called the sister and not his parents to report the intruder--- why??

It makes complete sense to me that he would call an older sibling rather than his parents. Parents are much more likely to ask for details that he didn't want to provide at that stage. It seems not quite right, because one would imagine a 12 year old first instinct would be to call Mum and/or Dad. Or 911, of course.

He had to call someone, because he knew they would be home sooner or later, but he didn't want anyone to arrive too soon or there was the possibility that Leila would survive and tell what happened.

If you try to think like a 12 year old it seems like quite a reasonable plan. To an adult it is full of holes.



:moo:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Okay, this is why I don't think the sister and her boyfriend were at the game:

Wouldn't Barney or Crystal ask to speak to IF and Leila? Like...the daughter/her boyfriend gets a phone call at the game, it's one of the little kids who are home alone, and there's been a break-in. I would think Barney or Crystal would taken the cell phone from the other daughter/her boyfriend. It just seems natural to be like "Let me talk to them" if something like that happened??

 

[Ghostwheel]

Okay, this is why I don't think the sister and her boyfriend were at the game:

Wouldn't Barney or Crystal ask to speak to IF and Leila? Like...the daughter/her boyfriend gets a phone call at the game, it's one of the little kids who are home alone, and there's been a break-in. I would think Barney or Crystal would taken the cell phone from the other daughter/her boyfriend. It just seems natural to be like "Let me talk to them" if something like that happened??

Maybe. Or maybe (like me) the parent's first reaction would be to keep their son on the line while they call 911 on another phone. To make sure the intruder did not come back and the kids needed faster help. It depends on the people and circumstances.

 

[ozgirl70]

Just because we know that the sister's bf was talking to IF while Crystal called 911, it doesn't necessarily follow that IF called the sister's phone. He may have called Crystal or BF 's phone, and then Crystal handed the phone to them and used a different phone ( her own, or the sisters) to call 911.


I can see how it could have happened either way. :moo:

 

[Ghostwheel]

...snipped for space....

The real question is... if IF called the sister and not his parents to report the intruder--- why??

...snipped for space....
:moo:

BBM: I know I am in the minority in waiting for more evidence, before being convinced IF killed his sister, I just want to explain the reasons why. I would never even think to ask this question, because in our house, we start by calling someone. If they don't answer, we call the next oldest (or person at the location where we need to contact someone) and go down the line. If we are at a game, we don't always hear our phones. Half the time, my daughter tells me my back pocket is singing because I don't hear it. Next thing we know, her phone is ringing. Sometimes hers rings first because her brother pushed the wrong speed dial. It seems normal to me that someone might have called a sister, whether first, second, or third.

ETA: My son has called me from the locked back bathroom of the house (the safe room) thinking someone was trying to break in. I didn't hear my phone, so he called his sister-she called me, I called the neighbors, they checked the house, I raced home, blah, blah, all was good) My experiences make some circumstances of the case seem logical, while others without those experiences have questions.

 

[The Cheese]

I really would like to know who the first adult was that found out Leila was injured, and how they found that out.

CW said IF was in the bathroom, heard Leila screaming, came out of the bathroom, and saw a man run out of the house.

It seems that an adult, hearing that Leila was screaming and a man ran out of the house, and knowing IF was okay because they were on the phone with him, would say to IF, "Well go see if Leila's okay!". Because Leila was the one screaming, and it would be unknown whether the man had hurt her or raped her or something. An adult would want to know why Leila was screaming - whether it was just fear, or if she was hurt.

So did that happen when Crystal or the sister or the boyfriend were talking to IF? And did IF say, "Yeah. I'm here in her bedroom, and she's okay, she's just scared, she's freaking out."?

Or did that happen when the dispatcher was talking to IF? Did she tell IF to go see if Leila was okay? Did IF say she was okay? Or did he say, "Oh my God she's covered in blood!"

Or was the first adult to know Leila was injured the first adult to arrive at the home and go in Leila's room? And who was that adult? LE? A family member?

Who called EMS for Leila? An adult? IF? The dispatcher? The first LE on the scene? A family member?

It bothers me so much that in the 911 call that was released, everybody thought Leila was okay, just freaking out, there had just been a break-in. So at what point did an adult discover Leila wasn't okay? And who was that adult? And how did that happen?

 

[MustlyLurking]

This states the petition specified a knife. I've found this reporter, Joel Metzger, to be reliable FWIW. His articles come out slower than the other media, and he seems to research for accuracy before publishing. :twocents:

Calaveras County District Attorney Barbara Yook is representing the county on this case, and her petition to the judge charges Isaiah with second degree murder along with a special allegation that he personally used a knife in commission of the crime.

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_e06c961e-bda2-11e2-8813-001a4bcf887a.html

The SacBee says "a special allegation for use of a dangerous weapon" and that is what I have read elsewhere.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/15/5422278/leila-fowler-calaveras-county.html

While this special allegation seems like it would be useful in other types of crime, ie kidnapping or rape are possible without a weapon, it seems redundant as an enhancement to a murder. Committing murder without a dangerous weapon would more unusual. That's why I think there must be more to this.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I have tried to do some timeline estimates. It's difficult though because we don't know how long the ambulance took to drive from the Fowler home to the hospital, how long the paramedics were at the house, how long did the ambulance take to reach the house (so where did it come from), how long until LE arrived at the home, etc.

If I just assume that the ambulance was able to make the 25-minute drive in 15-minutes, that the ambulance came from the hospital, and that LE arrived at the house in 10 minutes, here is just a complete estimate:

I worked backwards from the one time we do know: 12:55.

12:55: Ambulance arrives at the hospital
12:40 Ambulance leaves the Fowler home
12:35: Ambulance arrives at the Fowler home
12:23: LE arrives at the home
12:20: Ambulance is notified of the stabbing, leaves hospital
12:20: Barney arrives home? (If he left as soon as they got word of the break-in)
12:15: Dispatcher calls IF
12:13: Crystal calls 911
12:10: The sister and boyfriend call or tell Crystal and Barney about the break-in

 

[MustlyLurking]

I have tried to do some timeline estimates. It's difficult though because we don't know how long the ambulance took to drive from the Fowler home to the hospital, how long the paramedics were at the house, how long did the ambulance take to reach the house (so where did it come from), how long until LE arrived at the home, etc.

If I just assume that the ambulance was able to make the 25-minute drive in 15-minutes, that the ambulance came from the hospital, and that LE arrived at the house in 10 minutes, here is just a complete estimate:

I worked backwards from the one time we do know: 12:55.

12:55: Ambulance arrives at the hospital
12:40 Ambulance leaves the Fowler home
12:35: Ambulance arrives at the Fowler home
12:23: LE arrives at the home
12:20: Ambulance is notified of the stabbing, leaves hospital
12:20: Barney arrives home? (If he left as soon as they got word of the break-in)
12:15: Dispatcher calls IF
12:13: Crystal calls 911
12:10: The sister and boyfriend call or tell Crystal and Barney about the break-in

BBM Don't forget the witness who said she saw BF covered in blood at the end of her driveway around noon. Something does not add up.

One more piece of the timeline that would be interesting would be what time the rest of the family left the house. Any ideas?

 

[The Cheese]

I just noticed this tweet from IF's attorney from 8 hours ago

Mark J. Reichel ‏@reichellaw 8h
Valley Springs walking the murder scene, talking with witnesses. Justice doesn't get Saturdays off. With John Kennedy investigations.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I just noticed this tweet from IF's attorney from 8 hours ago

Mark J. Reichel ‏@reichellaw 8h
Valley Springs walking the murder scene, talking with witnesses. Justice doesn't get Saturdays off. With John Kennedy investigations.

I guess they hired a private investigator firm to help with the defense?

Could this be it: http://www.manta.com/c/mmsytz8/john-kennedy-associates

 

[MsFacetious]

I guess they hired a private investigator firm to help with the defense?

Could this be it: http://www.manta.com/c/mmsytz8/john-kennedy-associates

Pretty standard... even in smaller cases they do that. I'd expect it in a case this big.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, as far as blaming someone for having "defective" children (really...defective???) of course not-but we do expect parents who have children with challenges to properly care for their children and to provide an environment that will keep them safe and of course, society safe from them.

But we have an unusual situation here-and like it or not-the parents do bare a responsibility for the safety of their children. But in this situation, you have one child dead, quite possibly at the hands of another one of the children in their care. I do not see any logical reason for NOT at least exploring the environment these two children existed in and how what happened came to pass.

Also-I don't understand what you are trying to say about the child being "defective." He is a child. Should we dispose of him like a broken stereo? You can't "send him back." I think that one of the greatest values we have in this country is how we aim to treat our children differently than we do adults.

Sometimes, they're so diabolical they start at a very young age and LE catches them early.


Does age really matter if the perpetrator is a psychopath? There is NO fixing that.

At what age do we recognize the depraved mind for exactly what it is? 14? 16? 18? 21? 25?

I don't know if this kid is salvageable or not. We don't have enough information. But I strongly suspect he isn't.

Twenty one times is twenty times too many to be an "accident"


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[CHERIE.T]

Was it confirmed there was an eyewitness? If so, an eyewitness to what?
An actual person running down the street?
Or an imagined person running down the street?
How long were the kids at home alone that day?

I think IF possibly
made an attempt to clean up the crime scene and himself......
THEN called whoever to report the fake intruder.
LE didn't up and arrest IF and charge him with murder for no reason.
Common sense tells me LE has a lot of evidence.
Imoo

 

[CHERIE.T]

Sometimes, they're so diabolical they start at a very young age and LE catches them early.


Does age really matter if the perpetrator is a psychopath? There is NO fixing that.

At what age do we recognize the depraved mind for exactly what it is? 14? 16? 18? 21? 25?

I don't know if this kid is salvageable or not. We don't have enough information. But I strongly suspect he isn't.

Twenty one times is twenty times too many to be an "accident"


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:rockon:

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

This is probably a dumb question, but who is Fidel Taylor?

Haha.. I forgot to mention...He is a residant there knowing most of the boys
and prob the family.
He has added some more comments on his fb abt the 911 call..

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-leila-fowler-murder-charges-20130514,0,7234257.story

Two days after the stabbing, Fidel Taylor--who knows many of the children in town from coaching sports--sat down his two children who attend Toyon Middle School with the boy.

Taylor, a retired police officer, told his children they were not to repeat it outside their family, but that he suspected the brother.

"I wanted them to know they were safe and to keep away from him."

But as more than a week went by and Taylor watched his friends trying to soothe terrified younger children, he went cryptically public with his suspicions, posting: 'I know you're thinking it too' on his Facebook page.

 

[Elainera]

The SacBee says "a special allegation for use of a dangerous weapon" and that is what I have read elsewhere.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/15/5422278/leila-fowler-calaveras-county.html

While this special allegation seems like it would be useful in other types of crime, ie kidnapping or rape are possible without a weapon, it seems redundant as an enhancement to a murder. Committing murder without a dangerous weapon would more unusual. That's why I think there must be more to this.

Murder with a dangerous weapon - a knife, a gun - as opposed to murdering someone with items that are not dangerous weapons as such, for example: water (drowning), by strangulation (rope, belt etc), suffocation (for example with a pillow), or by pushing them over a balcony or roof top (without any weapon). I'm sure there are other ways you can kill someone without using a dangerous weapon.

My guess is the term is used to underscore IF's mindset and making sure that the incident could not have been an accident. Of course, 21 stab wounds can never be an accident, but I guess in court the distinction has to be made nevertheless.

ETA: maybe the use of a dangerous weapon is also more likely to prove intent?

 

[Helenstreet]

Sometimes, they're so diabolical they start at a very young age and LE catches them early.


Does age really matter if the perpetrator is a psychopath? There is NO fixing that.

At what age do we recognize the depraved mind for exactly what it is? 14? 16? 18? 21? 25?

I don't know if this kid is salvageable or not. We don't have enough information. But I strongly suspect he isn't.

Twenty one times is twenty times too many to be an "accident"


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Exactly.