GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[gitana1]

I don't think there is enough concrete research on mental illness to know whether outside factors cause it or whether it's a neurological condition that starts at certain points in development regardless of the environment, or both.
TBH I've never heard of mental illness in a 12 year old or a doctor who is legit willing to diagnose a person that age with a mental illness.

I think it is definitely fair to say that if a child is raised in turmoil or around abuse/violence, they will feel detachment and anger. These are emotions and feelings that can get to a boiling point and they'll lash out as a way to cope.

Well, I just linked to several articles that state just that. Certain mental conditions have genetic or organic components, like schizophrenia, but various mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, personality disorders, etc., absolutely can be caused by environmental factors. There is a boat load of research supporting that.

 

[MsFacetious]

which case does this relate to please? interested to look. TIA xx

http://www.ydr.com/ci_16877516

 

[gitana1]

With all due respect, we don't know that Priscilla even had the financial means to try and get custody. Besides the fact that regardless of what people might think of our judicial system the Judges aren't always on the up and up and do the right things by the children.

MOO

It is certainly harder to get primary custody if one lacks the money for a lawyer and the other party has one. And yes, judges do sometimes make crazy decisions.

But first of all, we don't know that BF was represented. He doesn't seem like he has tons of cash himself.

Second, in my experience, it is exceedingly rare that all custodial rights are taken form a mom or that all contact can be prevented. That happens, again in my experience, when the mom has some serious issues that either lead to the judge's decision or prevent her from doing what is necessary to fight for rights and the ability to see her kids.

Sadly, I can't tell you how many times I feel I care more about their case than my clients do. When that is the situation, I become very frustrated. The parents need to care enough to get of their tails without complaint and do what is necessary to have custody of their kids or at least visitation rights.

 

[blue22]

Table 23 shows that in 2001-2003, 161 youths aged 12-14 committed murder.

161 out of millions. It would be interesting to learn how many of those perpetrators killed, because they were being abused by the other sibling. How many killed a younger sibling, for seemingly no reason. (Not saying IF didn't have a motive. We know so very little.) Basically, if there is a documented and clear "reason" or motive. Or, how many of them confessed vs. lied. How many used a gun, knife, or no weapon. That number is still incredibly rare, and I would doubt many or any of them involve the circumstances and type of lies in IF's case. This case will probably one that others after are measured against.

 

[Jhon]

With all due respect, we don't know that Priscilla even had the financial means to try and get custody. Besides the fact that regardless of what people might think of our judicial system the Judges aren't always on the up and up and do the right things by the children.

With all due respect, Priscilla didn't NEED to have financial means to fill out court paperwork and request time with her children. Money isn't a valid excuse.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

161 out of millions. It would be interesting to learn how many of those perpetrators killed, because they were being abused by the other sibling. How many killed a younger sibling, for seemingly no reason. (Not saying IF didn't have a motive. We know so very little.) Basically, if there is a documented and clear "reason" or motive. Or, how many of them confessed vs. lied. How many used a gun, knife, or no weapon. That number is still incredibly rare, and I would doubt many or any of them involve the circumstances and type of lies in IF's case. This case will probably one that others after are measured against.

No....there are about 14,000 murders a year and I think only about 60% end up solved, so those are the cases that they have statistics on the killers for.

ETA: Wait....or do you mean 161 out of the millions of kids who live a turbulent life?

 

[blue22]

No....there are about 14,000 murders a year and I think only about 60% end up solved, so those are the cases that they have statistics on the killers for.

ETA: Wait....or do you mean 161 out of the millions of kids who live a turbulent life?

The statistics that someone pulled above. "in 2001-2003, 161 youths aged 12-14 committed murder." I was referring to 161 teens who murdered, out of millions of teens. (Obviously, there are going to be more that aren't complied in statics. Even so, it would still be very rare.)

 

[Cappuccino]

Does anyone really doubt that mental illness can lead to murder? And/or that contentious home lives can give rise to metal illness?

I'm not sure why folks are so invested in the idea of this kid being a psychopath, period, end of story. It's possible, sure, but it's no more or less possible than a scenario whereby he is mentally for whatever reason and that's why it happened.

Its odd, because saying he's a psychopath, period, end of story sounds more like an excuse to me than discussing other factors in his home environment. After all, if he was just born that way that's not his fault really is it?

Its as if people want whatever went wrong with this 12 year old to be unfixable - a depressing thing to hope for because he'll be released age 25 at the latest, psychopath or no.

 

[Elainera]

The statistics that someone pulled above. "in 2001-2003, 161 youths aged 12-14 committed murder." I was referring to 161 teens who murdered, out of millions of teens. (Obviously, there are going to be more that aren't complied in statics. Even so, it would still be very rare.)

Put it like this: 0.5% of all murders are committed by this age group. (also referenced above in the links I provided)

 

[Linda7NJ]

Its odd, because saying he's a psychopath, period, end of story sounds more like an excuse to me than discussing other factors in his home environment. After all, if he was just born that way that's not his fault really is it?

Its as if people want whatever went wrong with this 12 year old to be unfixable - a depressing thing to hope for because he'll be released age 25 at the latest, psychopath or no.

I don't want him to be anything.

I'm hoping to get more information. I'd like to hear the call from dispatch to the boy. I'd like to know if there were ever CPS investigations, domestic calls to law enforcement from the home or by neighbors, It's all important and relevant. I'm willing to consider anything and everything.

I simply refuse to manufacture scenarios at this point that blames the family. They're victims until some piece of information is disclosed that those children suffered abuse, neglect or even emotional abuse.

I'm more inclined to say the boy suffered abandonment issues since his mother has done nothing to see him in years.


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[PoirotryInMotion]

Its odd, because saying he's a psychopath, period, end of story sounds more like an excuse to me than discussing other factors in his home environment. After all, if he was just born that way that's not his fault really is it?

Its as if people want whatever went wrong with this 12 year old to be unfixable - a depressing thing to hope for because he'll be released age 25 at the latest, psychopath or no.

Agree--I like to err of the side of hope, personally, if I don't know all the facts.

I remember that the severely disturbed 10-yr old who set fire to the Our Lady of the Angels school (killing 95, and injuring many more) DID get help from the juvenile judge who sent him to a special rehab facility for emotionally disturbed kids after another fatal fire set at age 12. (This in spite of the fact that the judge was uniformly denounced for his decision, and even his own wife criticized him for it.) The boy lived there age 13-17, was successfully rehabilitated, and went on to serve in the Army and live a normal life afterwards.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

You have it right I think, And there are 2 other kids floating around somewhere that LF "never met". .....no idea of the parentage of those two.

You know what :censored: I'm judging away over here .. how could any of those children get the nurturing they need?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

You have it right I think, And there are 2 other kids floating around somewhere that LF "never met". .....no idea of the parentage of those two.

There are three that Leila never met, mentioned in the obit. The boy, OJK-F, is the two yo. The two others, *advertiser censored***** and *advertiser censored******* are dtrs of PR by her partner prior to BF, much older and living far away, so no wonder L never met them.

 

[Cappuccino]

I don't want him to be anything.

I'm hoping to get more information. I'd like to hear the call from dispatch to the boy. I'd like to know if there were ever CPS investigations, domestic calls to law enforcement from the home or by neighbors, It's all important and relevant. I'm willing to consider anything and everything.

I simply refuse to manufacture scenarios at this point that blames the family. They're victims until some piece of information is disclosed that those children suffered abuse, neglect or even emotional abuse.

I'm more inclined to say the boy suffered abandonment issues since his mother has done nothing to see him in years.


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Could be. Could be any number of things, maybe he was being bullied at school, maybe he was being abused by an adult outside the family, maybe he'd started taking drugs. We just don't know.

Rehabilitation has to be given a good effort though, because throwing away the key is simply not an option with a child that young.

 

[mamabear5]

There are three that Leila never met, mentioned in the obit. The boy, OJK-F, is the two yo. The two others, *advertiser censored***** and *advertiser censored******* are dtrs of PR by her partner prior to BF, much older and living far away, so no wonder L never met them.

Thanks PIM for all the helpful info. I knew where one of those unknowns fit in but I was in the dark re the other 2. Just for clarification there were 10 total whole, 1/2 and step siblings(I know they weren't true step siblings but I believe that is how they were described in the MSM) with a total of 7 parents. That's a bit crazy!

 

[gitana1]

Its odd, because saying he's a psychopath, period, end of story sounds more like an excuse to me than discussing other factors in his home environment. After all, if he was just born that way that's not his fault really is it?

Its as if people want whatever went wrong with this 12 year old to be unfixable - a depressing thing to hope for because he'll be released age 25 at the latest, psychopath or no.

Well, there is some information out there that suggests adolescents with psychopathic traits have more malleable brains, which makes snese, than adults who are psychopaths, and thus they may be more amenable to treatment:

Forth & Burke (1998) also point out that juveniles identified as psychopathic may be more ‘malleable’ and benefit more from treatment than their older counterparts. http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/10/6/466.full

No such study has been conducted of pre-adolescent kids with such traits, and treatment outcomes. And I don't even know how such kids would be treated. There certainly aren't treatment protocols for kids with such traits, apparently. But there does seem to be hope.

Agree--I like to err of the side of hope, personally, if I don't know all the facts.

I remember that the severely disturbed 10-yr old who set fire to the Our Lady of the Angels school (killing 95, and injuring many more) DID get help from the juvenile judge who sent him to a special rehab facility for emotionally disturbed kids after another fatal fire set at age 12. (This in spite of the fact that the judge was uniformly denounced for his decision, and even his own wife criticized him for it.) The boy lived there age 13-17, was successfully rehabilitated, and went on to serve in the Army and live a normal life afterwards.

What the heck? What case was that? The kid caused TWO fatal fires? And successfully rehabilitated? I trust you but that's hard to believe and I would love to read more.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Could be. Could be any number of things, maybe he was being bullied at school, maybe he was being abused by an adult outside the family, maybe he'd started taking drugs. We just don't know.

Rehabilitation has to be given a good effort though, because throwing away the key is simply not an option with a child that young.

I agree with that, but I also believe there needs to be a fail safe system that reliably monitors his progress. Perhaps it should employ the use of a polygraph to discover if he learns to mimic better, truly has changed, truly is remorseful, and not just because he was caught.
But.... I'm not comfortable taking the word of a psychiatrist. History has shown that to be a gamble.

off topic but on my train of thought. Something like the above should also be used before pedophiles are ever released.


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[Linda7NJ]

Well, there is some information out there that suggests adolescents with psychopathic traits have more malleable brains, which makes snese, than adults who are psychopaths, and thus they may be more amenable to treatment:
No such study has been conducted of pre-adolescent kids with such traits, and treatment outcomes. And I don't even know how such kids would be treated. There certainly aren't treatment protocols for kids with such traits, apparently. But there does seem to be hope.



What the heck? What case was that? The kid caused TWO fatal fires? And successfully rehabilitated? I trust you but that's hard to believe and I would love to read more.

Me too! Also wonder if they handed him an assault rifle in the army! where is he now? How old is he? Etc




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[Cappuccino]

I agree with that, but I also believe there needs to be a fail safe system that reliably monitors his progress. Perhaps it should employ the use of a polygraph to discover if he learns to mimic better, truly has changed, truly is remorseful, and not just because he was caught.
But.... I'm not comfortable taking the word of a psychiatrist. History has shown that to be a gamble.

off topic but on my train of thought. Something like the above should also be used before pedophiles are ever released.


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I'm afraid history has also shown polygraphs to be a gamble, and psychopaths are very good at fooling them. Short of psychic powers I can't think of a fool proof, gamble free way to see if he's truly changed or not. Same for any prisoner I suppose.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm afraid history has also shown polygraphs to be a gamble, and psychopaths are very good at fooling them. Short of psychic powers I can't think of a fool proof, gamble free way to see if he's truly changed or not. Same for any prisoner I suppose.

True.

I'd bet big money Jodi could pass one on any of her told tales.


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