GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[BeginnersLuck]

Gitana or PensFan would probably best be able to answer this but couldn't the lawyers petition the court to have him moved to an inpatient setting where he could receive some therapy or support? Even if he isn't guilty, IF likely isn't walking away from this unscathed and the sooner he begins to get help the better.

This would be a tough call because the lawyers and parents are proclaiming his innocence. I don't think the attorneys would want a therapist talking to IF about the circumstances when there is a ongoing investigation and criminal case. The records may be admissible in court and could potentially hurt their case.

I do find it unfortunate that treatment is being delayed. I'm a firm believer that delaying treatment for a traumatic situation (guilt/or no guilt) is detrimental to a individuals mental health.

Gosh....I certainly hope the other children in the family are receiving counseling.

 

[packerdog]

I know that I could never be friends with anybody that bashed the family and sat around giving negative comments at a time when they needed compassion and support. The family was not well known there having not lived there for very long, which makes it even worse for them gossiping. My heart goes out to this family and I hope they will find some good friends to help them through this tragic nightmare.

I can't find the logic in people being sympathetic if a stranger killed LF but not if IF killed his sister. To me that would be much worse.

 

[white rabbit]

i agree with both poirotry and eileen...here's where i want to make a distinction and i hope this comes out right:

there's a difference between knowing and covering up...

they could've "known" it was possible that IF was a danger in the home, that he lied about the intruder, et cetera, but "hoped" that it wasn't true he was involved and held on to that hope until LE charged him with the crime...that's not necessarily covering up, kwim? no parent wants to believe it's possible so they embraced IF's story and prayed he wasn't involved, though in the backs of their minds knew it was emotional denial. this is a much different scenario than:

"covering up" would be altogether more extreme and elicited exactly that response from the community...that BF arrived at the home much earlier than reported and tampered with evidence, helping IF concoct and stick to the intruder theory. this scenario is criminal.

am i saying this right? and fwiw i wish it was the former but am afraid it's the latter...yet until further evidence is presented we just don't know.

 

[white rabbit]

ok that didn't come out right. change "knowing" to "believing"?

:blushing: duh.

 

[vasportsmom]

I know that I could never be friends with anybody that bashed the family and sat around giving negative comments at a time when they needed compassion and support. The family was not well known there having not lived there for very long, which makes it even worse for them gossiping. My heart goes out to this family and I hope they will find some good friends to help them through this tragic nightmare.

I can't find the logic in people being sympathetic if a stranger killed LF but not if IF killed his sister. To me that would be much worse.

To a large degree you just made the point that many of us were trying to get across, CW did bash the mother of these children and allowed others to do so as well, on her public FB, so people have had a very negative reaction to her. It isn't gossip, it is a natural reaction to what many found to be a cruel and inappropriate action on her part.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

i agree with both poirotry and eileen...here's where i want to make a distinction and i hope this comes out right:

there's a difference between knowing and covering up...

they could've "known" it was possible that IF was a danger in the home, that he lied about the intruder, et cetera, but "hoped" that it wasn't true he was involved and held on to that hope until LE charged him with the crime...that's not necessarily covering up, kwim? no parent wants to believe it's possible so they embraced IF's story and prayed he wasn't involved, though in the backs of their minds knew it was emotional denial. this is a much different scenario than:

"covering up" would be altogether more extreme and elicited exactly that response from the community...that BF arrived at the home much earlier than reported and tampered with evidence, helping IF concoct and stick to the intruder theory. this scenario is criminal.

am i saying this right? and fwiw i wish it was the former but am afraid it's the latter...yet until further evidence is presented we just don't know.

You see, I have a hard time thinking that the parents actually participated in a cover up...yet continued to have IF talk to LE. You would think they would lawyer up, and none of the Fowlers would say a word to LE. For the family to know their son did it, to have taken part in any cover-up, and to have continued to drive IF to the police station often to talk to LE....It makes no sense.

Also, looking at the timelines I have tried to create, I don't really see how the parents even had time to do any sort of cover-up before LE arrived.

 

[vasportsmom]

You see, I have a hard time thinking that the parents actually participated in a cover up...yet continued to have IF talk to LE. You would think they would lawyer up, and none of the Fowlers would say a word to LE. For the family to know their son did it, to have taken part in any cover-up, and to have continued to drive IF to the police station often to talk to LE....It makes no sense.

Also, looking at the timelines I have tried to create, I don't really see how the parents even had time to do any sort of cover-up before LE arrived.

I'm holding off on "accusing" them of being involved in a cover up because I don't think we have enough info right now to know who had time to do what. I'd like to know when they arrived at the field, who all was in attendance, what time IF made the first call to his family, what time the family and LE/EMS arrived at the home and Leila's TOD. I think the devil is gonna be in the details here.

I do believe they must have known that IF was troubled and likely knew LE was focusing on him for good reason while still allowing the community to fundraise for them.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I really hope that Barney and Crystal do a more indepth interview after the verdict comes in. It will be interesting to see whether they are still claiming that IF is innocent at that point. And of course, I want to just hear what they have to say on a lot of issues. This case almost seems tailor made for an episode of Dateline or 20/20 or 48 Hours, where they have interviews with the parents, the lawyers, members of LE, people who knew the family, etc. I hope there is something in the works, and it would really surprise me if there is no hour-long program about the case within a year after the verdict.

 

[vasportsmom]

I really hope that Barney and Crystal do a more indepth interview after the verdict comes in. It will be interesting to see whether they are still claiming that IF is innocent at that point. And of course, I want to just hear what they have to say on a lot of issues. This case almost seems tailor made for an episode of Dateline or 20/20 or 48 Hours, where they have interviews with the parents, the lawyers, members of LE, people who knew the family, etc. I hope there is something in the works, and it would really surprise me if there is no hour-long program about the case within a year after the verdict.

Respectfully, I hope you are wrong. We are talking about two young children here and I have no desire to see anybody profit from the worst moment in each of their lives, especially the parents and the LOLyer they have hired.

Leila is gone and nothing will bring her back. IF is troubled but hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs and then he alone should decide if he wants to be the poster child for this tragedy.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Respectfully, I hope you are wrong. We are talking about two young children here and I have no desire to see anybody profit from the worst moment in each of their lives, especially the parents and the LOLyer they have hired.

Leila is gone and nothing will bring her back. IF is troubled but hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs and then he alone should decide if he wants to be the poster child for this tragedy.

Oh, I hope the parents or lawyer are not paid for it. But I don't know if I can see them doing it for free, especially the parents since they don't seem to be big spotlight seekers. If we are talking about the media profiting, they already have, and they have profited over the worst moments in many, many people's lives. But yeah I'll be honest and say I would definitely tune in, and then the entire family can fade into obscurity. But the fact that Barney and the lawyers are continuing to talk to the media tells they aren't that concerned about the case being in the public eye. I wouldn't blame the media at all for producing an hour-long program about this already high-profile case.

 

[menmo]

Oh, I hope the parents or lawyer are not paid for it. But I don't know if I can see them doing it for free, especially the parents since they don't seem to be big spotlight seekers. If we are talking about the media profiting, they already have, and they have profited over the worst moments in many, many people's lives. But yeah I'll be honest and say I would definitely tune in, and then the entire family can fade into obscurity. But the fact that Barney and the lawyers are continuing to talk to the media tells they aren't that concerned about the case being in the public eye. I wouldn't blame the media at all for producing an hour-long program about this already high-profile case.

I would watch it, too, but only if it none of them profited from it, if we could hear from both parents, and some of the siblings. With that said, though, there is always difficulty in truly knowing the truth and who's telling it. Point being some people are just more believable but could be lying, just a better story teller. We would only know if we know them, but yes, I'd like more pieces to the puzzle so I can try and make some sense out of what went wrong. I don't need anyone to blame. I just think the more people that know what might have caused the problem will be the first step in not having that problem.

MOOO

 

[vasportsmom]

Oh, I hope the parents or lawyer are not paid for it. But I don't know if I can see them doing it for free, especially the parents since they don't seem to be big spotlight seekers. If we are talking about the media profiting, they already have, and they have profited over the worst moments in many, many people's lives. But yeah I'll be honest and say I would definitely tune in, and then the entire family can fade into obscurity. But the fact that Barney and the lawyers are continuing to talk to the media tells they aren't that concerned about the case being in the public eye. I wouldn't blame the media at all for producing an hour-long program about this already high-profile case.

I don't think they would do it for free either. I just hate this. I hate that a beautiful child is dead. I hate that another young child stands accused and will never be the same again. And I hate that the whole world knows it because his name and face was out there before he was arrested.

It would be impossible to tell Leila's "story" without telling IF's too and I just can't get behind that. I think that should be his decision to make once he has (hopefully) received help and came to terms with the full scope of things.

But I'm so biased here and I will admit it. I have a 12 year old son that is the center of my everything. A child that spent 3 years of football sitting on the bench because he refused to stop trying to help up every player that he knocked down. A child that would put himself in time out and tell you exactly why. I can't help but see IF through the same rose colored glasses. My knee jerk reaction is to want to see IF protected and helped not blamed. My reaction to every case like this one, where a young person is guilty of such evil, (think Autumn P & Jessica R) is to want to figure where the parents went wrong. If these parents did everything right and their children still ended up "broken" then ... There but for the grace of (insert deity here) go I ... and that is one hell of a sucker punch.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Thinking on...while I do believe that some kids can suffer due to parental mistakes in upbringing, I do not believe that bad parenting = bad kids, nor the corollary--that good kids are therefore the result of good parenting. That's the sucker punch no one wants to admit, IMO.

While it has been my responsibility and (usually) my joy to have tried to raise our kids correctly, there BUT for the grace of God went I, and I firmly believe this. Raising kids to the best of my ability was my job description for a time, and my thanks back to the God who gave them to me. It was not, however, my 'formula' for getting the kind of kids I expected or 'deserved.' How our kids turn out is God's-masterpiece-in-process.

(End of soap-box . Sorry to digress...)

 

[Elley Mae]

The last I looked/read we could post links to pictures of IF just not post the pic, hope that is still correct.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/as...-stabbing-victim-vigil-00004027-story-top.jpg

I would like to know what CW was thinking, right at that second.

It appears to me she is looking at IF. jmo

 

[blue22]

Thinking on...while I do believe that some kids can suffer due to parental mistakes in upbringing, I do not believe that bad parenting = bad kids, nor the corollary--that good kids are therefore the result of good parenting. That's the sucker punch no one wants to admit, IMO.

While it has been my responsibility and (usually) my joy to have tried to raise our kids correctly, there BUT for the grace of God went I, and I firmly believe this. Raising kids to the best of my ability was my job description for a time, and my thanks back to the God who gave them to me. It was not, however, my 'formula' for getting the kind of kids I expected or 'deserved.' How our kids turn out is God's-masterpiece-in-process.

(End of soap-box . Sorry to digress...)

I completely agree with you. My parents were not good parents. I hate to be that blunt, but they weren't. We really should have been taken away by the state. I turned out to be "good." It was no effort of their own, I never even considered anything else. One sibling in particular, did not turn out "good." In fact, she was an incredibly difficult child, nearly from birth. She is still having a hard time in life, making awful choices. I truly think she was born with something wrong in her wiring. (I know that sounds blunt and mean, also. I love her, I'm just trying to be honest.) I know her childhood can't have helped, but she seemed almost determined from day one, to make the wrong choices. She was violent and mean from the beginning. My other siblings are good, and waver in the ways you would almost expect from a difficult childhood. Never the less, they are good people, and good parents.

I have known wonderful parents, who have children they can't seem to help...no matter what they do. I have known awful parents, who have children that are amazingly together and lovely. There are situations where it can be obvious, that the parents fault led the child down a certain path. I have seen just as many situations, where there is no explanation.

We have to remember, that there were other children in that home. Only one is accused of murder. Could their childhood have manifested differently in him, or did his actions have nothing to do with the crime? I'm guessing psychiatrists will be seeing him, to make an attempt at explaining. I think we, him, them...will never know for sure. That's the part of this case, that I find especially frightening.

 

[vasportsmom]

Thinking on...while I do believe that some kids can suffer due to parental mistakes in upbringing, I do not believe that bad parenting = bad kids, nor the corollary--that good kids are therefore the result of good parenting. That's the sucker punch no one wants to admit, IMO.

While it has been my responsibility and (usually) my joy to have tried to raise our kids correctly, there BUT for the grace of God went I, and I firmly believe this. Raising kids to the best of my ability was my job description for a time, and my thanks back to the God who gave them to me. It was not, however, my 'formula' for getting the kind of kids I expected or 'deserved.' How our kids turn out is God's-masterpiece-in-process.

(End of soap-box . Sorry to digress...)

You're exactly right about not wanting to admit that doing everything right doesn't always result in a good kid nor does making mistakes along the away mean that you've doomed your child for life. I have a soon to be 18 year old that has pulled some stupid stunts (like stealing vodka from the freezer and then refilling the bottle with water not realizing that frozen "vodka" would give him away) but thankfully he has never gotten into any real trouble. He will go off to college next year with a very decent GPA, a long list of athletic accomplishments and pretty good head on his shoulders - that is far more about who he is and not who I am as a parent. However, I want to believe that if he was a different child, a child that needed help or other resources, the fact that I am a very hands on parent would have meant that I noticed the signs and dealt with them.

 

[Flutterflies]

The last I looked/read we could post links to pictures of IF just not post the pic, hope that is still correct.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/as...-stabbing-victim-vigil-00004027-story-top.jpg

I would like to know what CW was thinking, right at that second.

It appears to me she is looking at IF. jmo

I believe you are right. I always thought she was looking at BF. Upon enlargement, it seems her eyes are on IF.
I feel sick every time I see that picture. IF's affect is off to me. The little ones are so sad as well as the older ones.

Maybe she is thinking:
Why does he have that smug look on his face?
Why does he appear pleased as punch instead of mourning?
WTF? (If she was not already thinking that before that moment!)

This is an awful case. I hope Leila can get justice.

MOO/IMO/ATJ

 

[katydid23]

I completely agree with you. My parents were not good parents. I hate to be that blunt, but they weren't. We really should have been taken away by the state. I turned out to be "good." It was no effort of their own, I never even considered anything else. One sibling in particular, did not turn out "good." In fact, she was an incredibly difficult child, nearly from birth. She is still having a hard time in life, making awful choices. I truly think she was born with something wrong in her wiring. (I know that sounds blunt and mean, also. I love her, I'm just trying to be honest.) I know her childhood can't have helped, but she seemed almost determined from day one, to make the wrong choices. She was violent and mean from the beginning. My other siblings are good, and waver in the ways you would almost expect from a difficult childhood. Never the less, they are good people, and good parents.

I have known wonderful parents, who have children they can't seem to help...no matter what they do. I have known awful parents, who have children that are amazingly together and lovely. There are situations where it can be obvious, that the parents fault led the child down a certain path. I have seen just as many situations, where there is no explanation.

We have to remember, that there were other children in that home. Only one is accused of murder. Could their childhood have manifested differently in him, or did his actions have nothing to do with the crime? I'm guessing psychiatrists will be seeing him, to make an attempt at explaining. I think we, him, them...will never know for sure. That's the part of this case, that I find especially frightening.

YOU MAKE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS ABOUT THE EFFECT OF PARENTING ON 'THEIR' CHILDREN. I think we come into life kind of hard wired already. Our parents can make us a little better or a little worse. [ Unless there is just egregious, extreme abuse and neglect of course.] But I believe that we are who we are for the most part from birth at soul level. My 2 kids are polar opposites, but raised the same way, in the same home, treated exactly alike. They are both great kids but very different people from each other. They are very close now, but growing up they had zero in common. Totally different interests and beliefs and hobbies and friends. I fed, clothed and loved them but they grew into 'themselves' if that makes sense.

IF was probably always going to be a volatile and difficult,perhaps aggressive and violent person, and it may not have anything to do with anything his family did to him. However maybe they should have seen he needed help. That is what i question.

 

[vasportsmom]

I believe you are right. I always thought she was looking at BF. Upon enlargement, it seems her eyes are on IF.
I feel sick every time I see that picture. IF's affect is off to me. The little ones are so sad as well as the older ones.

Maybe she is thinking:
Why does he have that smug look on his face?
Why does he appear pleased as punch instead of mourning?
WTF? (If she was not already thinking that before that moment!)

This is an awful case. I hope Leila can get justice.

MOO/IMO/ATJ

I always assumed she was looking at BF too but it does appear that she is looking around him at IF or someone beside him. I can't decide if IF looks smug or perhaps zoned out. Either way he does not appear as "connected" to the situation as the rest of his family does. That disconnect to the pain those around him seem to be feeling is troubling. I think CW exhibits the same disconnect though.

 

[menmo]

I completely agree with you. My parents were not good parents. I hate to be that blunt, but they weren't. We really should have been taken away by the state. I turned out to be "good." It was no effort of their own, I never even considered anything else. One sibling in particular, did not turn out "good." In fact, she was an incredibly difficult child, nearly from birth. She is still having a hard time in life, making awful choices. I truly think she was born with something wrong in her wiring. (I know that sounds blunt and mean, also. I love her, I'm just trying to be honest.) I know her childhood can't have helped, but she seemed almost determined from day one, to make the wrong choices. She was violent and mean from the beginning. My other siblings are good, and waver in the ways you would almost expect from a difficult childhood. Never the less, they are good people, and good parents.

I have known wonderful parents, who have children they can't seem to help...no matter what they do. I have known awful parents, who have children that are amazingly together and lovely. There are situations where it can be obvious, that the parents fault led the child down a certain path. I have seen just as many situations, where there is no explanation.

We have to remember, that there were other children in that home. Only one is accused of murder. Could their childhood have manifested differently in him, or did his actions have nothing to do with the crime? I'm guessing psychiatrists will be seeing him, to make an attempt at explaining. I think we, him, them...will never know for sure. That's the part of this case, that I find especially frightening.

This was an excellent post. Thanks for saying it so well.

BBM

I always assumed she was looking at BF too but it does appear that she is looking around him at IF or someone beside him. I can't decide if IF looks smug or perhaps zoned out. Either way he does not appear as "connected" to the situation as the rest of his family does. That disconnect to the pain those around him seem to be feeling is troubling. I think CW exhibits the same disconnect though.

I thought the same.

MOO