Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #23

[Dodes]

Here are a couple of my theories:

-Regarding the key fob, maybe AL was sleeping in his underwear (or even in the nude) when he heard a sound and quickly started to put on the shorts he had been wearing earlier that day (which may have been on the floor beside the bed) to go check it out. DG could have struck at this time and a struggle ensued, explaining why there was blood on the edge of the mattress and the nightstand and why the TV was overturned.

-Regarding the drilling of the lock, my husband insists on sleeping with a fan on for white noise and it really does block out most sounds. Both of our children sleep with fans on as well. If AL and KL had a fan on, which is quite possible in Calgary during the summer months, there's a good chance they wouldn't have heard the drill. Although, DG couldn't have known whether or not they would have fans on so that would be a big risk on his part.

MOO

 

[otto]

A niggling thought in my mind is, how did DG manage financially? Was he reliant solely on the generosity of his parents? He didn't seem to have a long working career in which to contribute to CPP. A federal disability pension starts at $933.82 and goes up to $1,290.81 depending on your contributions to CPP while working. In order to even qualify for a disability pension, one has to jump through hoops, have a longstanding history of inability to work, and a physician able and willing to vouch for you and your condition. I suppose if he did not contribute to the running of the household in any way or have any sort of social life, it would be a nice little 'allowance'. Because he has just turned 57 years old, he doesn't have his regular CCP yet, much less his OAP. It has been stated that the green truck is even in his father's name, so I presume the elder G paid the insurance on that as well.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/b...pp/cpp-disability-benefit/benefit-amount.html

AISH. Although it is intended for "severely handicapped", recipients include those with fibromyalgia and mental illness.

 

[musicaljoke]

I really don't know what to think.
There is no proof (so far) that DG owned or wore a pair of 'Delta 2'
There is no proof that he purchased a pair of Delta 2
There was an empty box for a pair of Delta 2 in DG's basement closet, but there is no proof whose shoebox it was or if the box ever contained shoes
Maybe we will learn more later, but sounds like 'the shoe didn't fit' to me


Lucie Edwardson @MetroLucie
"The elements are the same design, not a perfect fit...they do correspond in shape and size," Gallen of comparing footprint w shoe. #Garland

Lucie Edwardson @MetroLucie
Gallen is comparing treated footprint at Liknes home with the test impression she and Cst. Alexon made. #Garland #yyc

Lucie Edwardson @MetroLucie
Gallen says the impressions she made of Dr. Scholls Delta 2 shoes are the same make/model as shoe box found at the #Garland home. #yyc

The shoe boxes were in Garland's basement office, which was locked when the police got there.

We don't need proof that he bought them, for indeed, he could have stolen them or had them gifted to him. And we don't even need proof that he wore them during the crime. Circumstancial evidence is good evidence, especially when one considers the totality of the evidence, which the jury will be instructed to do.

So, finding the shoe boxes was a notable bit of evidence, and finding that one of the shoe boxes would have had a shoe that matched the pattern in blood at the Liknes' home is very significant.

 

[Hatfield]

The shoe boxes were in Garland's basement office, which was locked when the police got there.

We don't need proof that he bought them, for indeed, he could have stolen them or had them gifted to him. And we don't even need proof that he wore them during the crime. Circumstancial evidence is good evidence, especially when one considers the totality of the evidence, which the jury will be instructed to do.

So, finding the shoe boxes was a notable bit of evidence, and finding that one of the shoe boxes would have had a shoe that matched the pattern in blood at the Liknes' home is very significant.

I agree it is the totality of the evidence that is important in this case.

It amazes me that he was able to get rid of as much evidence as he has.

Ive mentioned before that I have burned yard debri lots of times in 55 gallon drums and it is very difficult to burn even wood down to just ash. I dont think he could have burned the bodies cleanly in just the cans without doing something else to get the fire hotter.

A few days ago we saw a photo that showed he had Acetylene torches and one theory I had was he could have rigged that up to shoot flames into the metal burn cans and turned it into more of an incinerator and that could be how he did it. Or even propane could be rigged similarly to do it. People that have farms get creative with the tools they have.

He had to have done something like that to get things reduced to just ashes and a few bone fragments. Just spraying lighter fluid in a can wont cut it. Ive tried my 55 gallon drums with lots of wood and no matter how much I stir it and even with air holes in my cans it just cant be done cleanly. I can get most burnt but there is always large size chunks of wood at the bottom that wont burn clean.

Now an open burn pit on the ground is a different story. If you have a large fire pit going with lots of wood on it then you can get it extremely hot and reduce things down pretty good. I usually get open fires going about 10 feet diameter wide and about 4 feet high of wood and that type of open fire can reduce most things to ash. We have dead trees in the area and so I am always having to burn trees and limbs. I cut them in pieces with a chainsaw and just keep feeding the fire pit.

On another murder case a year or so ago I shared that I even tested out trying to burn a small dead possum that I found that I think a coyote must have killed. I happened to have a large fire pit going and decided to test out whether i could burn it completely. I was always curious whether it would burn the bones down.

I was quite surprised to see that I was able to burn the bones and all down to ash. I did have to keep stirring the fire and I put it in one of the hottest parts and after about 2 hours and some good stirrings it was all ash. Which really surprised me at the time. I thought the skull would not burn up but it did. Now the bones on the possum was a lot smaller than a human would be so I could see how he missed some bone chunks and fragments that LE did find.

The main point of all this is that I am convinced he did something more than just the metal cans. He either rigged up some sort of gas torch to shoot flames in it or he used a larger open fire burn pit to do it. A can by itself would not do it IMO. Not 3 bodies. No way.

So I am real curious how he rigged his burn cans or if he just used an open fire pit.

One other thing I noticed just today in the link below is there was a pond nearby. LE was searching that body of water too. I wonder if he may have taken the larger parts of the bodies and maybe sunk them in that pond. I am not sure how far away the pond is but according to news link it did seem rather close or they would not have been searching it.

That footage of the water is in the video footage which is in the part that says July 7th, 2014 in the timeline. There are multiple videos and you have to view that one to see the water.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1445696/t...amily-nathan-obrien-alvin-and-kathryn-liknes/

 

[Dodes]

I agree it is the totality of the evidence that is important in this case.

It amazes me that he was able to get rid of as much evidence as he has.

Ive mentioned before that I have burned yard debri lots of times in 55 gallon drums and it is very difficult to burn even wood down to just ash. I dont think he could have burned the bodies cleanly in just the cans without doing something else to get the fire hotter.

A few days ago we saw a photo that showed he had Acetylene torches and one theory I had was he could have rigged that up to shoot flames into the metal burn cans and turned it into more of an incinerator and that could be how he did it. Or even propane could be rigged similarly to do it. People that have farms get creative with the tools they have.

He had to have done something like that to get things reduced to just ashes and a few bone fragments. Just spraying lighter fluid in a can wont cut it. Ive tried my 55 gallon drums with lots of wood and no matter how much I stir it and even with air holes in my cans it just cant be done cleanly. I can get most burnt but there is always large size chunks of wood at the bottom that wont burn clean.

Now an open burn pit on the ground is a different story. If you have a large fire pit going with lots of wood on it then you can get it extremely hot and reduce things down pretty good. I usually get open fires going about 10 feet diameter wide and about 4 feet high of wood and that type of open fire can reduce most things to ash. We have dead trees in the area and so I am always having to burn trees and limbs. I cut them in pieces with a chainsaw and just keep feeding the fire pit.

On another murder case a year or so ago I shared that I even tested out trying to burn a small dead possum that I found that I think a coyote must have killed. I happened to have a large fire pit going and decided to test out whether i could burn it completely. I was always curious whether it would burn the bones down.

I was quite surprised to see that I was able to burn the bones and all down to ash. I did have to keep stirring the fire and I put it in one of the hottest parts and after about 2 hours and some good stirrings it was all ash. Which really surprised me at the time. I thought the skull would not burn up but it did. Now the bones on the possum was a lot smaller than a human would be so I could see how he missed some bone chunks and fragments that LE did find.

The main point of all this is that I am convinced he did something more than just the metal cans. He either rigged up some sort of gas torch to shoot flames in it or he used a larger open fire burn pit to do it. A can by itself would not do it IMO. Not 3 bodies. No way.

So I am real curious how he rigged his burn cans or if he just used an open fire pit.

One other thing I noticed just today in the link below is there was a pond nearby. LE was searching that body of water too. I wonder if he may have taken the larger parts of the bodies and maybe sunk them in that pond. I am not sure how far away the pond is but according to news link it did seem rather close or they would not have been searching it.

That footage of the water is in the video footage which is in the part that says July 7th, 2014 in the timeline. There are multiple videos and you have to view that one to see the water.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1445696/t...amily-nathan-obrien-alvin-and-kathryn-liknes/

These tweets were posted earlier in the trial. I'm not sure how hot an incinerator is but could 1000°C burn a body to ash?

MAY BE DISTURBING FOR SOME

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 36s37 seconds ago
Calgary firefighters later did a test burn of the burn barrel; reached temp of 1,000C, maintained for several minutes #Garland

Bill GravelandVerified account ‏@BillGraveland 43s44 seconds ago
Testing was done on the level of heating of the burn barrel said Oxton. A test burn was done by Calgary Police Service. #Garland

Lucie Edwardson ‏@MetroLucie 54s55 seconds ago
Oxton explains how the Calgary fire department conducted a test burn with same kind of materials seized from #Garland farm #yyc

 

[gen_bug]

A few days ago we saw a photo that showed he had Acetylene torches and one theory I had was he could have rigged that up to shoot flames into the metal burn cans and turned it into more of an incinerator and that could be how he did it. Or even propane could be rigged similarly to do it. People that have farms get creative with the tools they have.

Archie did say in his testimony when asked how they burned the garbage, propane and torch was used.

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 1m1 minute ago
Archie #Garland says he or Doug would burn the garbage. Had a propane tank and a torch.

 

[Hatfield]

Archie did say in his testimony when asked how they burned the garbage, propane and torch was used.

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 1m1 minute ago
Archie #Garland says he or Doug would burn the garbage. Had a propane tank and a torch.

Thanks. That explains it then. Archie must have been his father.

I tried to find some closeups of the barrel to see if they had holes in it where they could shoot the flames in. One article said one of the cans was on its side so they also could have just laid it sideways and scooted material in and shot the flames in from the side.

Propane gas torch would do the trick.

 

[gen_bug]

There is this picture I snipped off of News, not sure if this will tell you what you are looking to know or not - but I have saved hoards of pics so maybe it will help you.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3206053/douglas-garland-triple-murder-trial-thursday/

 

[YYC]

The shoe boxes were in Garland's basement office, which was locked when the police got there.

We don't need proof that he bought them, for indeed, he could have stolen them or had them gifted to him. And we don't even need proof that he wore them during the crime. Circumstancial evidence is good evidence, especially when one considers the totality of the evidence, which the jury will be instructed to do.

So, finding the shoe boxes was a notable bit of evidence, and finding that one of the shoe boxes would have had a shoe that matched the pattern in blood at the Liknes' home is very significant.

I would add that shoe producers in general have several models with an identical shoe sole. One shoe producer might have 500 different models of shoes based on 100 different shoe soles. In this case I find it very likely that delta and delta 2 have the same sole. The reason why delta 2 is not available anymore is because it's been discontinued, I guess. I also believe that the police verified this prior to the trial due to its importance.

 

[eyesofclay]

I would swear up and down that the Amber Alert at one point said "Nathan may be in the company of his Grandfather" and that is where the discussion of Kathy being included or not originated. Does anyone else remember this? We puzzled over that quite a lot in the beginning. Otto, maybe you recall this, or Lois or Lala?

Can't find the tweet but it was stated in court that a witness claimed to have seen NO and AL filling up at a gas station.

 

[otto]

Thanks. That explains it then. Archie must have been his father.

I tried to find some closeups of the barrel to see if they had holes in it where they could shoot the flames in. One article said one of the cans was on its side so they also could have just laid it sideways and scooted material in and shot the flames in from the side.

Propane gas would do the trick.

Propane and a torch seems like such overkill for the burning barrel. It's likely they were burning things that shouldn't actually be burned, but should instead be taken to the dump.

 

[Dodes]

Can't find the tweet but it was stated in court that a witness claimed to have seen NO and AL filling up at a gas station.

Any chance the witness could have been DG trying to trick police into thinking that AL had taken NO?

 

[Power of Two]

Propane and a torch seems like such overkill for the burning barrel. It's likely they were burning things that shouldn't actually be burned, but should instead be taken to the dump.

Propane and a torch are commonly used where I live to start yard fires when the wood or materials are damp or you are in a hurry and don't want to play around with kindling and newspaper and such. We call them tiger torches and they get a hot fire going in no time flat. A little diesel poured on the material helps, too. (A big Whoosh!) Perhaps an accelerant such as diesel was also used and could explain some of the reported smoke at the farm?

 

[otto]

Propane and a torch are commonly used where I live to start yard fires when the wood or materials are damp or you are in a hurry and don't want to play around with kindling and newspaper and such. We call them tiger torches and they get a hot fire going in no time flat. A little diesel poured on the material helps, too. (A big Whoosh!) Perhaps an accelerant such as diesel was also used and could explain some of the reported smoke at the farm?

I grew up on an acreage and there was one burning barrel. It was used for more than a decade, maybe longer, and then replaced. I didn't pay attention because only my parents looked after the garbage. They didn't use propane or a torch. If it wasn't combustable, it was composted, recycled, or taken to the dump.

We don't burn tree limbs on the acreage because of the danger of brush fires.

 

[2Hope4]

Sorta of afraid of posting this...but...most everything that has been found and testified about so far, you would find at my house. I don't have tanks of gases though.

Surprisingly, the areas in the outbuildings also didn't send up alarms to me. I know many farms that are no longer operating as livestock farms and there's usually many outbuildings. Many are full of things gathered at auctions, equipment from when it was a working farm, estate furniture and belongings from deceased family members...yes a type of hoarding, yet fairly common.

The one item I don't get is the dental numbing medicine. It's an injectible, AFAIK. There are topical numbing medicines, but I personally have not seen them in the type of container those in the fridge were. Shocking enough, I have injectible lidocaine, which would be similar. HOWEVER....I must add we have a much smaller farm, but do have livestock, and pets. Even though we are country, not many vets will treat injured chickens, or pigs. You learn to treat them yourself, and I have the needles with string attached to put stitches in if need be They were purchased right off ebay...

Restraints? I don't think I still have the leather ones, but I did have some that you put around a horse or cows legs to keep them from kicking at their newborn baby so it can nurse. I believe a friend borrowed mine, and I didn't have a need for them, so never asked for them back.

As a gag, I was given a set of thumb handcuffs. No idea why I have kept them.

I guess what I'm thinking, looking at each item, it doesn't seem that bizarre to me. However, looking at the whole picture, and DNA, and missing people, etc. it does add up to nefarious reasons.

I'm not sure how different cultures, and livestyles are in that area, but from what I have gathered through the time on this case, much is like rural areas here in VA. Most larger farms have been in that family for generations, and if the current owner needs money, then the timber is cut, or a few lots or parcels of land are sold. As many of the older generation retire from active farming, they usually want someone in the family to continue the tradition.

Since it doesn't seem the rest of the siblings were interested in farming, I can see how the parents just let him do what he wanted. Afterall, he was present if they needed help with firewood, mowing the lawn, moving items, driving someone into town, etc. And likely the entire farm would have been left to him at their death.

Did they realize he had some 'issues' or mental health problems, maybe, and probably. However, that generation here do NOT openly talk about it. I remember asking my Grandmother, who at the time had been diagnosed with brain cancer, if my Aunt had always been the way she was. Grandma pointed to her head, and shook her head, saying "she might have something like I do, it's best not to talk about people"...

 

[otto]

It's funny that the police mentioned that 'the grass' was shoulder high. Did they not realize that they were in wheat fields?

 

[2Hope4]

There is this picture I snipped off of News, not sure if this will tell you what you are looking to know or not - but I have saved hoards of pics so maybe it will help you.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3206053/douglas-garland-triple-murder-trial-thursday/

WOW! So that opening could used to put an accellerant to the fire, or could be used for drafting so air was getting to the fire, but I haven't seen one like it before. Interesting! Thanks!

 

[otto]

Sorta of afraid of posting this...but...most everything that has been found and testified about so far, you would find at my house. I don't have tanks of gases though.

Surprisingly, the areas in the outbuildings also didn't send up alarms to me. I know many farms that are no longer operating as livestock farms and there's usually many outbuildings. Many are full of things gathered at auctions, equipment from when it was a working farm, estate furniture and belongings from deceased family members...yes a type of hoarding, yet fairly common.

The one item I don't get is the dental numbing medicine. It's an injectible, AFAIK. There are topical numbing medicines, but I personally have not seen them in the type of container those in the fridge were. Shocking enough, I have injectible lidocaine, which would be similar. HOWEVER....I must add we have a much smaller farm, but do have livestock, and pets. Even though we are country, not many vets will treat injured chickens, or pigs. You learn to treat them yourself, and I have the needles with string attached to put stitches in if need be They were purchased right off ebay...

Restraints? I don't think I still have the leather ones, but I did have some that you put around a horse or cows legs to keep them from kicking at their newborn baby so it can nurse. I believe a friend borrowed mine, and I didn't have a need for them, so never asked for them back.

As a gag, I was given a set of thumb handcuffs. No idea why I have kept them.

I guess what I'm thinking, looking at each item, it doesn't seem that bizarre to me. However, looking at the whole picture, and DNA, and missing people, etc. it does add up to nefarious reasons.

I'm not sure how different cultures, and livestyles are in that area, but from what I have gathered through the time on this case, much is like rural areas here in VA. Most larger farms have been in that family for generations, and if the current owner needs money, then the timber is cut, or a few lots or parcels of land are sold. As many of the older generation retire from active farming, they usually want someone in the family to continue the tradition.

Since it doesn't seem the rest of the siblings were interested in farming, I can see how the parents just let him do what he wanted. Afterall, he was present if they needed help with firewood, mowing the lawn, moving items, driving someone into town, etc. And likely the entire farm would have been left to him at their death.

Did they realize he had some 'issues' or mental health problems, maybe, and probably. However, that generation here do NOT openly talk about it. I remember asking my Grandmother, who at the time had been diagnosed with brain cancer, if my Aunt had always been the way she was. Grandma pointed to her head, and shook her head, saying "she might have something like I do, it's best not to talk about people"...

VA ! I followed the Morgan Harrington case, as well as Hannah Graham - an inevitable end that everyone could see, yet no one could prevent.

Neither of his sisters were interested in taking over the hobby farm. The suspect's father was not a farmer. He is an oil man (ATCO Gas - major gas company in the province of Alberta)) who bought the property in the early 1970s when the suspect was a teenager. They may have rented out 5 acre plots for grain or animals, but it was never anything more than a hobby farm, and is probably taxed as a hobby farm in the MD of Rockyview. I would be surprised if they had animals. Perhaps the dental chair is a weird auction purchase.

The parent's knew that he had mental illness that started in his early 20s, when he had a mental breakdown while attending the University of Edmonton (Science program). They heard about it again after he was arrested in Vancouver with another breakdown. He's been under psychiatric care since his release, but apparently it wasn't enough.

Actually, I'd question whether he really had a breakdown when he quit the University of Alberta in Edmonton. He didn't have a car accident (like he has claimed), but apparently, during this mental breakdown, he decided to steal the identity of a teenager who was killed in a car accident at the same time that he quit university.

He used that teenager's identity when he worked at BCIT in Vancouver for several years. In Vancouver, he got involved with the drug trade, was arrested, and was subsequently arrested for fraud (he presented identification with the teenage car accident victim' name).

Did he suffer a mental breakdown, or did he chose a con that worked well for several years?

 

[deugirtni]

The shoe boxes were in Garland's basement office, which was locked when the police got there.

We don't need proof that he bought them, for indeed, he could have stolen them or had them gifted to him. And we don't even need proof that he wore them during the crime. Circumstancial evidence is good evidence, especially when one considers the totality of the evidence, which the jury will be instructed to do.

So, finding the shoe boxes was a notable bit of evidence, and finding that one of the shoe boxes would have had a shoe that matched the pattern in blood at the Liknes' home is very significant.

Yes, absolutely... but... if the Crown is saying that the shoes that came from the box at DG's house were the ones worn by the killer during the crime, then shouldn't the shoe prints be a perfect fit, rather than 'not a perfect fit'?

 

[GIALLO]

I would suspect wearing shoes alters the print, for example if a person pronates the inside of the heels of the sole are worn down. A ''perfect fit' could only be achieved by testing the shoes that made the original print - which is impossible if they were destroyed. The print aligned enough for there to be a match in a national database and further confirmed by physical examination and comparison.