Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[Dyakt]

Quote snipped....


KW has repeatedly stated that BS asked him to have his wife killed in the 1990's. If KW is 56 years old, the youngest he would have been (in 1990) is 29 years old. Not sure how you arrived at him being 12 years old.

From the fact that in the interview He said that they did not contact from 1974 until 1989, when KW was in contact until things went sour again in the early 1990's? That's why I'm saying he asked for that allegedly either when he was addicted to crack or when he was 12. Both seem like weird choices.

It was a chance encounter with a friend of their mother which saw Winter and his brothers reconnect with Sherman in 1989.

Then it goes that gets a bit unclear I admit, reading now more I do not know was there a separate lawsuit in 1992 and then again in 2002?

But, turns out KW has accused BS of conspiracy with killing their father in 2002.

In the deposition, he said the family dispute arose around 2002. Mr. Winter accused him of being "involved in some conspiracy to murder their father and deprive them of their inheritance in the 1960s."

Mr. Sherman said he was "totally flabbergasted at this untrue allegation."
In an affidavit, Mr. Winter denied making the murder allegation. He also said that property taxes had gone unpaid because Mr. Sherman refused to advance money.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...its-hard-in-legal-family-feud/article1085750/

Also, KW's family suit against BS got thrown out shortly before BS's death.

An Ontario Superior Court justice in September disagreed, according to the judgment. At the time of the judgment the cousins’ lawyer told the Toronto Star they planned to appeal.

They never ended up appealing, instead BS ends up dead a few months later? What is going on with this family?
http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...after-bodies-found-in-couples-toronto-mansion

 

[Crosby87]

Another poster mentioned that Jews do not have open caskets.

https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...h/Why-Dont-Jews-Have-Open-Casket-Funerals.htm

At Jewish funerals, why are the caskets closed? Don’t most funerals have open caskets?

Judaism places a high priority on showing respect for the deceased. Indeed,one of the highest commandments is kevod ha-meit, honoring the deceased. One of the reasons this commandment is so highly regarded is that the act may never be reciprocated by the deceased – it is an entirely selfless act by definition. Even so, in our tradition one does not show respect for the person by viewing his or her remains. The viewing of the physical body is more apt, in the traditional opinion, to lead to thoughts that do not honor the deceased. Viewing a corpse is more likely to bring to mind opinions on how the body appears, or an emotional reaction that is more tied to how we feel when seeing a dead person or grappling with our own mortality. None of these truly honor the deceased. Rather, remembering the person’s deeds and saying psalms and the honoring prayers of Eyl Maley Rachamim and Kaddish Yatom truly honor the person without the possibly superficial thoughts on the body’s appearance or the charged emotions of seeing a dead body which has nothing really to do with honoring the deceased’s soul.

There is another aspect of a viewing which contradicts Jewish tradition. To have an open casket, usually the mortician must do something to the body to make it presentable. This may include cosmetics, manipulations, and even embalming. Judaism takes seriously the injunction in Torah that “Dust you are, to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19) Additionally, we believe that we are created b’tzelem Elohim – “in the image of God.” Putting these two ideas together, our tradition and belief is that we should do nothing to significantly or permanently change our image, or prevent our natural return to dust. The methods morticians need to use to present a body for an open casket transgress these ideas and values, preventing us from having open casket funerals.

Rabbi Jeffery Wildstein is the rabbi at Temple Beth David, a Reform congregation in Westwood, MA.
For more information about Jewish funerals, death and mourning rituals, visit Interfaith Family.
Two articles you might find especially helpful are Jewish Burial and Mourning Practice for Non-Jewish Relatives and How To Pay a Shiva Call.
Other Ask A Rabbi entries about death and mourning:
Why do we light Yahrtzeit candles?
Is it true that Jewish with tattoos can’t be buried in a Jewish cemetary?
I’ve never been to a Shiva before. What do I do?

https://www.jewishboston.com/at-jew...-closed-dont-most-funerals-have-open-caskets/

 

[Crosby87]

I think it was the FE episode where KW states that the reason he contacted these media outlets was because the media was speculating that it was M/S. He felt they should know that BS had contacted him to kill HS and that strongly supported the theory that BS killed HS and then committed suicide.

In the FE episode they stated they wanted to prove or disprove KW’s story about BS asking him to kill HS.

The fellow who conducted KW's lie detector test sat at a table close to KW
This man is quite old and I think he wears thick glasses.
He may have years of experience but his eyesight might not be sharp or his machine.
I doubt his opinion is accurate.
Kerry Winters should retake a LDT.
.

 

[nuff]

I cannot help but wonder at the people who post here clinging to the idea that these deaths were MS when The Toronto Police Service, which presumably has access to much more evidence than is publicy available, declared them a double -homicide after 6 weeks of intensive investigation. KW has contradicted himself repeatedly by saying it was MS, and, during the same interview, saying he doesn't know who did it - the man is not credible.

 

[Peace777]

Also, the real estate person who found the Shermans, may and possibly should, feel nervous about personal safety until the culprits are identified.
imo, speculation.

Why would her or their lives be in danger after finding the bodies? As if they didn't know or see the killer or killers to identify them right?.
Could the Real Estate Agent know more? So "be quiet"? (they were friends it says) :thinking:

 

[dotr]

Why would her or their lives be in danger after finding the bodies? As if they didn't know or see the killer or killers to identify them right?.
Could the Real Estate Agent know more? So "be quiet"? (they were friends it says) :thinking:

LE have a list of everyone with access to the house key / people who viewed the house. Not that the agent is in danger, but it seems to me that it would be prudent for the real estate person to stay low-key.
imo speculation.

http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-...o-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman-1.3581816

There was a lock box with a key inside because the house was for sale. Gomes says the number of people with access to it was “significant” and police are “looking forward” to interviewing everyone on the list.

 

[AllyJane]

The fellow who conducted KW's lie detector test sat at a table close to KW
This man is quite old and I think he wears thick glasses.
He may have years of experience but his eyesight might not be sharp or his machine.
I doubt his opinion is accurate.
Kerry Winters should retake a LDT.
.

Firstly The test, filmed by The Fifth Estate, was conducted by former Quebec police officer and veteran polygraph expert John Galianos. I don't think the fact that Galianos wore glasses is a factor here. He is an expert in the field.

Secondly KW took TWO tests. The first was with his own lawyer which came out inconclusive at KW's own admission.

How many does KW have to take for some people to accept he didn't pass them.

 

[AllyJane]

I cannot help but wonder at the people who post here clinging to the idea that these deaths were MS when The Toronto Police Service, which presumably has access to much more evidence than is publicy available, declared them a double -homicide after 6 weeks of intensive investigation. KW has contradicted himself repeatedly by saying it was MS, and, during the same interview, saying he doesn't know who did it - the man is not credible.

I am not understanding why people, weeks after the LE declared it a TARGETED DOUBLE HOMICIDE, keep hoping for a MS. As you say, they have access to evidence they are not sharing with the public. That is how they build a case that sticks. Rewards only come into effect when they are at a dead end for witnesses or finding a specific person. I am confused why a few people are making up these elaborate scenarios for MS when BS had a ton of enemies and even stated himself he was surprised he wasn't murdered already. Just because the public doesn't have all the details in terms of evidence and motives, doesn't mean that there is none of that.

 

[AllyJane]

Why would her or their lives be in danger after finding the bodies? As if they didn't know or see the killer or killers to identify them right?.
Could the Real Estate Agent know more? So "be quiet"? (they were friends it says) :thinking:

Usually LE requests that witnesses do not speak to the media or release any information. That is a common practice. It limits any information getting out that will jeopardize the case.

 

[ldlager]

I am not understanding why people, weeks after the LE declared it a TARGETED DOUBLE HOMICIDE, keep hoping for a MS. As you say, they have access to evidence they are not sharing with the public. That is how they build a case that sticks. Rewards only come into effect when they are at a dead end for witnesses or finding a specific person. I am confused why a few people are making up these elaborate scenarios for MS when BS had a ton of enemies and even stated himself he was surprised he wasn't murdered already. Just because the public doesn't have all the details in terms of evidence and motives, doesn't mean that there is none of that.

Not to speak for those folks that still hang on to the belief that a MS occurred, I suspect that their reasoning could result from 1) doubts about the competency of the TPS homicide squad (especially in light of recent cases); and 2) concerns about pressure from or influence by certain parties to announce a finding of double homicide. These parties could include the Sherman family; Greenspan; friends and community of the Sherman’s; the Mayor of Toronto; other politicians at various levels; and even pressure indirectly exerted by the press in widespread reporting some of the “conclusions” of the PI’s and their pathologist even before LE was even finished gathering evidence at the house.

Despite the above, and other unanswered questions, I believe LE when they state that this was a MM. AllyJane, respectfully I don’t imagine anyone is “hoping for” a finding of MS, and I am sure you didn’t mean it that way. Frankly, whether a MS or a MM or a SS, the terrible damage has already been done. All moo.

 

[minorone]

The fellow who conducted KW's lie detector test sat at a table close to KW
This man is quite old and I think he wears thick glasses.
He may have years of experience but his eyesight might not be sharp or his machine.
I doubt his opinion is accurate.
Kerry Winters should retake a LDT.
.

The FE lie detector was conducted by John Galianos (veteran polygraph expert) & confirmed by Mike Arntfield (a university professor and criminologist). The FE also stated & confirmed that they used multiple resources to confirm the credibility of what KW said about being asked by BS to kill HS. KW himself admitted he was lying about a number of things when presented with the results of the lie detector test.

To suggest that a veteran polygraph expert should be discredited based solely on age & that he wore glasses is discriminatory and demeaning.

You say KW should retake another LDT. He took a private LDT for which the results were inconclusive. We do not know what questions were asked in the FE LDT vs. the private one. Unless the LDT given by the FE and the private one asked the same questions and were administered the same, the results cannot be compared. I would want to see the questions asked in the private exam taken by KW.

 

[JDG]

The FE lie detector was conducted by John Galianos (veteran polygraph expert) & confirmed by Mike Arntfield (a university professor and criminologist). The FE also stated & confirmed that they used multiple resources to confirm the credibility of what KW said about being asked by BS to kill HS. KW himself admitted he was lying about a number of things when presented with the results of the lie detector test.

To suggest that a veteran polygraph expert should be discredited based solely on age & that he wore glasses is discriminatory and demeaning.

You say KW should retake another LDT. He took a private LDT for which the results were inconclusive. We do not know what questions were asked in the FE LDT vs. the private one. Unless the LDT given by the FE and the private one asked the same questions and were administered the same, the results cannot be compared. I would want to see the questions asked in the private exam taken by KW.

Although it may be of interest to some, its all a moot point. LDTs are not allowed in court in Canada and for very good reason. They are not reliable.

Crosby, I am very surprised that you would find being 'experienced' (old) and wearing glasses to be a reason to question the qualifications of anyone.
What is 'quite old' and what are 'thick glasses'?

As for sitting close, it was possibly to get a tight shot for the tv program as well as for BOTH being able to hear one another clearly with technicians working around them.

Glasses are to correct his vision, not to make things murky. He is one of the best in Canada, if LDTs ever do become allowed in court, you'd do well to use him.

 

[minorone]

Although it may be of interest to some, its all a moot point. LDTs are not allowed in court in Canada and for very good reason. They are not reliable.

Crosby, I am very surprised that you would find being 'experienced' (old) and wearing glasses to be a reason to question the qualifications of anyone.
What is 'quite old' and what are 'thick glasses'?

As for sitting close, it was possibly to get a tight shot for the tv program as well as for BOTH being able to hear one another clearly with technicians working around them.

Glasses are to correct his vision, not to make things murky. He is one of the best in Canada, if LDTs ever do become allowed in court, you'd do well to use him.

FE apparently used multiple resources to support KW's claim that he & BS were involved in a conspiracy to kill HS. The LDT was one of the resources they used to try to support the claim made by BS.

 

[Ritika]

I am not understanding why people, weeks after the LE declared it a TARGETED DOUBLE HOMICIDE, keep hoping for a MS. As you say, they have access to evidence they are not sharing with the public. That is how they build a case that sticks. Rewards only come into effect when they are at a dead end for witnesses or finding a specific person. I am confused why a few people are making up these elaborate scenarios for MS when BS had a ton of enemies and even stated himself he was surprised he wasn't murdered already. Just because the public doesn't have all the details in terms of evidence and motives, doesn't mean that there is none of that.

I so agree!

 

[casesensitive]

This case has really got to me and I am fixated on the thought that BS accidentally strangulated his wife in a fit of anger.When he realized what happened he tried to cover up by using the belts to cover the ligature marks and to commit suicide.In his mensa type mind the strangulation would be explained by the belts and in a Robins Williams type of method he commited suicide.

I can understand why some people still think that this is a murder/suicide. For me, the M/S was embedded in my mind by the initial police source statement at the crime scene. I trusted that LE called it early, and that this would be the final consensus after the autopsies. LE never denied this "unofficial "LE statement of M/C despite intense media coverage, outrage by the Sherman family, and the later results by the private investigations which claimed a double murder. I can appreciate that LE would remain tight-lipped in an investigation, but there comes a time when a police statement is necessary, and especially in a high profile case, and when the media explodes with new information from undisclosed sources.

I can also understand how some people don't believe the six week investigation conclusion by LE, that the Shermans were targeted and murdered. Some people think that the powerful family lawyer Greenspan, with his investigative experts has intimidated LE and their M/S decision. Then KW came on the scene with his revelation that BS hated his wife and wanted her killed. KW thinks BS killed her and LE are under the eight ball of the powerful Greenspan and LE are covering it up.

I have to say that I thought BS was capable of M/S. I feel that he has shown traits of being a sociopath in his his business dealings and personal dealings. He is known as being ruthless and "has to win" at at any cost. I noted his admitted lack of feelings when his father died. His other writings seem to lack empathy at best.

So I understand why some people still think this was a murder/suicide. But there is forensic proof that it wasn't, and I have accepted that.

 

[Rancid Butter]

Ritika I agree with YOU,

 

[Crosby87]

Although it may be of interest to some, its all a moot point. LDTs are not allowed in court in Canada and for very good reason. They are not reliable.

Crosby, I am very surprised that you would find being 'experienced' (old) and wearing glasses to be a reason to question the qualifications of anyone.
What is 'quite old' and what are 'thick glasses'?

As for sitting close, it was possibly to get a tight shot for the tv program as well as for BOTH being able to hear one another clearly with technicians working around them.

Glasses are to correct his vision, not to make things murky. He is one of the best in Canada, if LDTs ever do become allowed in court, you'd do well to use him.

KW's polygraph starts at the 25:27 mm in the Fifth Estate Show.
John Gailianos teased KW. He told him the blood pressure cuff goes around his neck!! Good grief. That’s how his cousin Barry died.
Polygraph took a total of 3 hours. Results instant – KW failed. Told he was hiding something.
LE told Kerry he’s not a suspect and there is no evidence that he is

 

[Crosby87]

I watched the Fifth Estate again and took notes.

“He would project arrogance, with Barry it was no ******** pretty much all of the time.

The broadcaster said Barry had a lot on his mind when he left the office Wednesday evening.

“For somebody to go to their house and murder the both of them, it was personal.”

We know who entered the house when Honey was there.

Legal Analyst/Teacher: Consider the commitment and quite frankly the strength required to manually strangle somebody – even strangle with a ligature it’s a very up close, intimate, domineering, rage induced manner to kill someone.

 

[dotr]

KW's polygraph starts at the 25:27 mm in the Fifth Estate Show.
John Gailianos teased KW. He told him the blood pressure cuff goes around his neck!! Good grief. That’s how his cousin Barry died.
Polygraph took a total of 3 hours. Results instant – KW failed. Told he was hiding something.
LE told Kerry he’s not a suspect and there is no evidence that he is

JG also told KW as the wire was placed on him, to put his arms up like he was going to jump into a pool. He seemed to put emphasis on the word pool.
imo.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I watched the Fifth Estate again and took notes.

“He would project arrogance, with Barry it was no ******** pretty much all of the time.

The broadcaster said Barry had a lot on his mind when he left the office Wednesday evening.

“For somebody to go to their house and murder the both of them, it was personal.”

We know who entered the house when Honey was there.

Legal Analyst/Teacher: Consider the commitment and quite frankly the strength required to manually strangle somebody – even strangle with a ligature it’s a very up close, intimate, domineering, rage induced manner to kill someone.

Could you please explain “We know who entered the house when Honey was there.”

Thank you.


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