Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

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As intriguing snip from the recent article in the media -

BBM

“The seven new warrants bring to 28 the total number filed by police since last December. Some targets of previous warrants — cellular telephone and banking records — were made public, but these new warrants target locations that are too specific to release without compromising the investigation, a Crown attorney told the court.”
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

My interpretation, the targeted locations identify a person or persons whom LE is investigating. ???
 
and, in law, what you 'know' about your own brother are hearsay and rumour.
nothing factual about secondhand information, in law.
Yes.. but nevermind even 'in law', just everyday gossip.. nobody is to say what is accurate, or how accurate, or how embellished, or what was omitted, what parts weren't known, or shared from those who were actually 'in the know', etc. Let's be honest, people talk.. and probably little bits and pieces are truths, but the obvious danger is in making interpretations out of the little bits and pieces to make a whole story. imo.
 
The response by the Judge following Toronto Star/Donovan application to the court for public release of warrants is worth reading, by anyone who might’ve missed it.

Ontario Court Justice Leslie Pringle acknowledged that there is a strong public interest in scrutinizing the actions of police but, for now, has maintained the sealing order on the search warrant information, including about 220 pages of police interviews, crime scene photos, video and other information.

Pringle acknowledged the Star’s goal in seeking the records was “appropriate and important.”

“They want to shed light on some areas where they feel mistakes may have been made, and they want to understand why this investigation is taking so long,” Pringle said. “In this regard, I agree there is a public interest in transparency of the legal process.” She told the Star it could renew its application if charges are laid or if circumstances related to the investigation change.”

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star
 
Andreww was not speaking of 'everyday gossip', IMO he presented his knowledge about his brother as FACT.

I'm simply pointing out that FACT cannot be substantiated 'in law' by rumour and and secondhand information.

His knowledge of his brother is probably more 'factual' than KWs information about the Shermans, simply because the sources are closer but its still not FACT.
 
I believe the Wayne Millard & Laura Babcock cases played a big role in the direction of this case. If TPS had listed this as a murder suicide, they knew the family would start a media storm comparing this case to TPS's handling of those cases. No harm in listing this as a double homicide and letting it die, and nobody can throw stones because they can't prove anything. Police have all the evidence and they'll never make it public as its an ongoing investigation.
I agree that it's worth remembering that LE in this case is not the OPP, RCMP, etc, but specifically the TPS, who have been subject of a lot of criticism in the past few years. I don't live in TO, but I imagine they may be very sensitive to this perception of carelessness in detecting murders, and pretty determined not to slip up again, especially in such a high profile case.

To me, that doesn't mean the double-homocide declaration is fiction. Like any professional police force, these are highly trained, competent people, with a great deal of self-pride. I don't think they're so lily-livered as to be bullied by politicians or the media. The way to respond to criticism is to prove the critics are wrong, by doing a thorough job.

With the Ramsey case, the police were openly critical of the successive District Attorneys, for interfering in the investigation and trying to protect the Ramseys. This article from 6 months after that murder reveals all the splits and disagreements amongst everyone involved in that 3-ring circus: police and DA at odds, police officers against the chief, police officers on stress leave, and filling lawsuits.
Case of JonBenet Ramsey Stalls on Error and Rivalry

Canada has no similar role as a District Attorney in the justice system. Those elected officials can potentially be intimidated by lawsuits and the media, and potentially use cases for self-aggrandizement. In Canada, the Crown prosecutors are just faceless civil servants, more distanced from police. The integrity of the police investigation is respected.
This is not American Television: US versus Canadian systems (Part 2) - Alberta Justice
 
Andreww was not speaking of 'everyday gossip', IMO he presented his knowledge about his brother as FACT.

I'm simply pointing out that FACT cannot be substantiated 'in law' by rumour and and secondhand information.

His knowledge of his brother is probably more 'factual' than KWs information about the Shermans, simply because the sources are closer but its still not FACT.

The reason I doubt the integrity of KW’s sources is prior to the murders, to those who were acquainted with the Shermans personally, these sorts of published comments by KW undoubtedly served as fair warning for everyone to stay out of the feud. It was KW who took it out of the courtroom and put it into the media spotlight, although I can find no subsequent comment from him when the lawsuit was dismissed in Sept/17.

Even now, it seems nothing has changed as the only information that perks his interest is that which serves his own agenda, as if he’s unable to let go of the battle that was already lost by him.

April, 2017
Toronto billionaire’s orphaned cousins seek piece of Apotex fortune
.....“I still believe . . . that Barry, in his own way, didn’t think I’d be this tenacious,” said Winter, 55.

“He must sit back some days and be amazed that I’m still in the ring, and I’m in the ring with a fine attorney, and a legitimate cause of action. I believe we have a great chance of winning.”......

......“I don’t know if it’s so much about getting five, 10 or X amount of millions. To me this is about, and I know it sounds cliché, it’s really about making Barry Sherman accountable.”.......”
 
The reason I doubt the integrity of KW’s sources is prior to the murders, to those who were acquainted with the Shermans personally, these sorts of published comments by KW undoubtedly served as fair warning for everyone to stay out of the feud. It was KW who took it out of the courtroom and put it into the media spotlight, although I can find no subsequent comment from him when the lawsuit was dismissed in Sept/17.

Even now, it seems nothing has changed as the only information that perks his interest is that which serves his own agenda, as if he’s unable to let go of the battle that was already lost by him.

April, 2017
Toronto billionaire’s orphaned cousins seek piece of Apotex fortune
.....“I still believe . . . that Barry, in his own way, didn’t think I’d be this tenacious,” said Winter, 55.

“He must sit back some days and be amazed that I’m still in the ring, and I’m in the ring with a fine attorney, and a legitimate cause of action. I believe we have a great chance of winning.”......

......“I don’t know if it’s so much about getting five, 10 or X amount of millions. To me this is about, and I know it sounds cliché, it’s really about making Barry Sherman accountable.”.......”
Sorry, not certain what KW has said about the Shermans that has everyone's knickers in a twist? I've only ever heard him talk about interactions that occurred before the lawsuit. Can someone fill me in?
 
And again, as everybody seems to be very adept at skipping over facts and evidence, Why did Honey miss that meeting? When someone behaves totally out of character and is then murdered, you cannot overlook it.
 
Sorry, not certain what KW has said about the Shermans that has everyone's knickers in a twist? I've only ever heard him talk about interactions that occurred before the lawsuit. Can someone fill me in?

I have no idea what it is you don’t understand. Did you read my post and quote that you replied to?
 
And again, as everybody seems to be very adept at skipping over facts and evidence, Why did Honey miss that meeting? When someone behaves totally out of character and is then murdered, you cannot overlook it.

Without any doubt, TPS is aware of all information that is in the public domaine.

When a death investigation is officially ruled a double homicide, you cannot overlook that either.
 
And again, as everybody seems to be very adept at skipping over facts and evidence, Why did Honey miss that meeting? When someone behaves totally out of character and is then murdered, you cannot overlook it.
Doesn't it seem that HS had a lot on the go right at that time? She was planning holiday festivities at the couple's vacation home in the USA, she was in the process of inviting people and receiving responses, figuring out who was coming, when, etc., and perhaps where they would be staying? She had family concerns, with I believe a new grandchild expected, and a wedding planning in the works, a home that was for sale on the open market, staff to manage, new home design plans to be figured out, and she was leaving for Florida... when? I'm pretty sure we can forgive her forgetting to let the committee know of her absence with all that she had on her plate right then. I'm sure HS has led a busy life and coordinated many things at once, prior to this.. however these things all seem of a very personal nature, babies, weddings, new home plans, selling the long-time family home.. nevermind that she was also apparently 70 years old and possibly had some health issues on top.
 
Exploring the mind of Barry .......

Barry used some clever trickery when he sold the original Empire company. Nearly every business sale includes a non-compete clause.
....
By splitting (legal) hairs he got away with it when starting an identical business (Apotex) by claiming Barry Sherman LLC and Barry Sherman are two different things. ....

From what I read, the company who purchased Empire did not pursue any infringement in that regard.

And we must remember the first offer Barry made to the Empire trustees was rejected.

Are you talking about the offer made to Lou Winter's wife? Are you talking about the offer made to the trustees after Beverly Winter's death? Both were declined, and I'm not aware that we know the monetary value of the offer? Are *you*? From what I read, the offer was for BS to become general manager for approximately one year only, during which time he would manage and protect the value of the company in return for a salary, a vehicle, and right of first refusal should the company be sold. (“proposed that he would “assume the position of General Manager of the pharmaceutical and chemical companies until January 31, 1966, in consideration of……the right of first refusal on the sale of the…..assets”, a salary, and the use of an automobile. His offer was open for one day. Royal Trust rejected the offer.” )

His next offer was for more money and was accepted . In part because it also included future plans for the orphaned children and the deal was accepted by Royal Trust .

On what are you basing that BS’s next offer was for more money, when the first offer was merely to become general manager in return for pay? Royal Trust had apparently listed the business for sale on the open market and already had one bonafide offer on the table. BS's offer was for FAR more money (28.7% higher - approx $450,000 vs $350,000) than the only other offer.

BS's offer ALSO included an 'option' that for as long as the buyers (BS and his co-purchaser) owned the company, the orphans would each be given the opportunity to work there at a certain age/time, and that after working there for TWO YEARS, each orphan would THEN be allowed to each *acquire* 5% of shares in the company. The *other* prospective purchaser would NOT have been subject to ANY such terms, and would have purchased the company for some hundred thousand LESS dollars, had BS's offer NOT been put forth. What do you suppose would have happened to the boys then?
(“In 1967, however, Royal Trust decided to sell the Empire Companies’ business….. Sherman and Joel Ulster’s offer of about $450,000 was the higher of the two offers, about $100,000 above the only other offer.

[16] The Sherman & Ulster offer also included an option for the Winters children to be employed by the purchased business and to acquire 5% of the shares of the company if employed for two years.

[17] The option had four pre-conditions attached; the opportunity of employment and subsequent acquisition of shares would only arise if all four pre-conditions were met. If any one of the conditions was not fulfilled at the point in time when the children were to have the opportunity of employment or share acquisition, Sherman’s obligations were to be null and void.

[18] Royal Trust had wanted stronger option terms that would have inhibited Sherman’s ability to resell the purchased business or take the Empire Companies public. Sherman refused such terms.”)


Remember that Royal Trust had the responsibility for the future of the children and Barry's "sweetener promise" of employment and share ownership appeared to satisfy the trust company .

What would Royal Trust have done had BS *not* come along with an offer of almost 1/3 more money AND the ‘sweetener promise’? Would RT *ever* have found a buyer who would be willing to operate indefinitely under such an option agreement? Personally, I wouldn’t think so.

But Barry was clever enough to add the caveat ... "only if he was still owner of the business" .

Would you expect that BS or anyone, should be so UNclever as to beholden themselves to uphold an option to provide employment and 5% each of the shares of a company one did NOT own??

Fair enough , a careful businessman would want to protect himself from unseen circumstances. But Barry would have known full well it also released him from the future obligations and intentions such as the "sweetener clause" regarding the orphaned children which he signed with the trust company to get them to approve the original sale to him.

Well, YES! It seems that RT thought it was okay for themselves to sell the business, but NOT okay for the purchaser to sell the business. That makes sense. (NOT!) But yet somehow, BS is being made out to be a heinous villain by some.
............
Regarding the trust company ....

Royal Trust maybe should have retained control of those proceeds (the sale of Empire) (many hundreds of thousands of dollars) They could have dispensed the proceeds on behalf of the Winter children including payments to the adoptive parents (who took on a huge responsibility) with a remainder of the funds dispensed to the children when they achieved adulthood.

RT was selling Empire – the *only* OTHER offer was for 1/3 LESS, at $350,000 NOT many hundreds of thousands of dollars. I’m sure RT dispensed those funds as they saw fit, as the executors of the Winter estates. As a sidenote, imho, usually adoptive parents adopt children without being compensated.

Remember , back in those days (1970's) investment incomes and bank savings account interests were very high , some Government of Canada savings bonds paid 19% . If the net proceeds of the Empire sale was $300,000 even just a 10% return would be $30,000 per year , a handsome income in those days , even for a family with 5 children.

Historical Prime Interest Rates Canada.jpg
How would that have looked for *each* of the 4 orphans upon their reaching adulthood? Doesn’t seem to come close to ‘Bank Sherman’, which BS became to the boys, through no legal obligation.

I expect that whatever the adoptive parents did with the funds was honorable , what they did is none of my business , and none of our business .

My point is that Royal Trust was obligated to take care of the future of the orphaned children. In hindsight they maybe could have done better ..... which I understand was one aspect of the legal actions taken by the Winter children . (I believe the lawsuit was against BOTH Barry Sherman and Royal Trust).

Barry sold the original Empire company without honoring the signed non-compete contact , along with the fact it removed the responsibility he signed with Royal Trust regarding the orphaned children .

BS’s ‘non-compete’ clause in the sale agreement when he sold Empire, had zero to do with this saga.

By splitting (legal) hairs he got away with it by claiming Barry Sherman LLC and Barry Sherman are two different things. Technically correct but has a very bad aroma surrounding it.

That BS went on to begin a new company he named Apotex has zero to do with the orphans.

The bad aroma was not enough to win the lawsuit on behalf of the orphaned Winter children , but it sure makes sense why they took the action in the first place.

Namely, greed, if we’re calling a spade a spade.

Not to mention that Barry and Apotex are known as the most lawyered up company in Canada. Not to mention the efforts a famous trust company would undertake to protect their good name.

The Winter children were up against a mountain of lawyers retained by billionaires .
Note: I'm in 'blue' interspersed with the OP's comments above, as well.

The Winter children, imho, were up against a set of parents who died at a young age, while their children were very young, and failed to put measures in place so that both they and the family business would be appropriately looked after, both financially and emotionally. They wouldn’t allow the one family member who apparently loved the boys, to adopt them. They did not bother to design a succession plan to be in place for how the company would continue to operate in the absence of Lou and Beverly Winter.

These things don’t just take care of themselves. One can’t expect a trust company to run a pharmaceutical operation. It sounds like the parents trusted no one. Not Beverly’s own brother. And certainly not Barry Sherman. While KW claims that his father took BS under his wing and became a surrogate father to BS as a boy when he lost his dad, teaching him the ropes of his pharma company, the truth is that this did not happen at age 10 when BS’s father died, but rather, several years later, when BS could provide service in return, such as to allow the Winter couple to take vacations and leave the business in BS’s hands, etc. It seems it wasn’t just out of love and wanting to provide a father figure. BS was heading toward adulthood by the time this happened.

And so the boys and their inheritance went on to be looked after by complete outsiders. Conversely, BS went on to take the Winter boys under HIS wing at a much older age, when he discovered they had endured a miserable life, and he provided for them. Even according to KW, BS was as a surrogate father ("Kerry winter admits that for many years Sherman was “like a surrogate dad and I was like an adopted son.” : How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune) , but yet it was not good enough. They wondered why 'Bank Sherman' was so generous with them, and thought they had found an ‘in’ to obtain much much more than they were already being given.


BS is a scapegoat for the fate of the boys after decisions made by their own parents were honored. There is nobody else to sue for the millions each that the boys feel entitled to. What would have happened/be happening if Royal Trust had instead sold for $100K LESS to the other bidder, with NO side 'options' to offer relatives jobs and shares in the company some 15 years into the future - just the sale of a business for a fair market price at the time of the sale, as it should have been. imo.
 
The paperwork does not happen overnight, but Barry and his wife were at the property on the night that she was murdered.

Please provide a source for your statement that they were at the new property that day. AFAIK this has never been revealed, and I would be interested to know how you know this .They met at Barry’s office that afternoon.
 
Police have stated publicly that the 2 deaths *were* in fact murder, so, I'd say that yes, it is worthwhile to speculate that it was murder. Thankfully TPS took their time, did some investigative work over the course of a month, and did NOT accept the simplest explanation, which has led to wrong answers in the past. Things are not *always* as they appear.

With respect, it appears LE’s investigative work here was far less than stellar. Things that come to mind are the undiscovered earring, the mismanaged video from the Apotex office, and not adequately securing the house so that an apotex employee was allowed to access and potentially contaminate valuable evidence at the crime scene. I’m sure there are other items that don’t come to mind immediately.
 
With respect, it appears LE’s investigative work here was far less than stellar. Things that come to mind are the undiscovered earring, the mismanaged video from the Apotex office, and not adequately securing the house so that an apotex employee was allowed to access and potentially contaminate valuable evidence at the crime scene. I’m sure there are other items that don’t come to mind immediately.

How do we know whether the earring was undiscovered, belonged to Honey Sherman or was planted to make LE look bad? I don’t recall anything more was said about it other than a lot guesswork.

I’m also not familiar with a mismanaged video from the Apotex office. Maybe I’ve forgotten but google is not helping me with a link. Likewise I remember an Apotex truck or van photographed when it was parked at the Sherman residence. But not that it’s known an Apotex employee gained unauthorized access into the home. Are these facts or speculation?
 
Yep, the earring showed up about two weeks after TPS used a metal detector in the snow. it was in plain sight. very odd.

As for an employee gaining 'access' it was on the first day, an employee lifted the police tape and placed flowers on the lawn area. Then, told to get out of there......but not into the house. Just off the roadside.

I believe the Apotex vans were used to empty the house, after the investigations, so that it could be cleaned properly.

There has been so much speculation and rumour, its easy to get it all mangled up and that allows 'stories' to continue or add credence to them.

Its a declared double murder and no one has said the TPS are NOT working on it.
Those who do the leg work, are still plugging away......it will take a long time but I'm sure there will be a resolution at some point.
 
Yep, the earring showed up about two weeks after TPS used a metal detector in the snow. it was in plain sight. very odd.

As for an employee gaining 'access' it was on the first day, an employee lifted the police tape and placed flowers on the lawn area. Then, told to get out of there......but not into the house. Just off the roadside.

I believe the Apotex vans were used to empty the house, after the investigations, so that it could be cleaned properly.

There has been so much speculation and rumour, its easy to get it all mangled up and that allows 'stories' to continue or add credence to them.

Its a declared double murder and no one has said the TPS are NOT working on it.
Those who do the leg work, are still plugging away......it will take a long time but I'm sure there will be a resolution at some point.

Thanks for your clarification. I wondered because I hadn’t noticed anything to indicate TPS was bungling this particular investigation. Without knowing the direction it’s taking, better it’s thorough rather than hasty.
 
Doesn't it seem that HS had a lot on the go right at that time? She was planning holiday festivities at the couple's vacation home in the USA, she was in the process of inviting people and receiving responses, figuring out who was coming, when, etc., and perhaps where they would be staying? She had family concerns, with I believe a new grandchild expected, and a wedding planning in the works, a home that was for sale on the open market, staff to manage, new home design plans to be figured out, and she was leaving for Florida... when? I'm pretty sure we can forgive her forgetting to let the committee know of her absence with all that she had on her plate right then. I'm sure HS has led a busy life and coordinated many things at once, prior to this.. however these things all seem of a very personal nature, babies, weddings, new home plans, selling the long-time family home.. nevermind that she was also apparently 70 years old and possibly had some health issues on top.
I'm sure she always had a lot of things going on, but the simple truth is that she never missed meetings. That event was out of the ordinary and its no coincidence that it happened the day before her death.
 
I'm sure she always had a lot of things going on, but the simple truth is that she never missed meetings. That event was out of the ordinary and its no coincidence that it happened the day before her death.
And how do you *know* that "it's no coincidence"?

Life is FULL of coincidences every day, whether one chooses to recognize them or not - a simple example would be the coincidental exact timing of two vehicles with two drivers who know nothing of one another, intersecting at an intersection - if they happen to crash, it perhaps becomes a tragic coincidence that both vehicles just happened to be there at exactly that same second. If they miss one another, it was still the same coincidence that they both happened to be there at exactly that same second, however one of the drivers may have been on the ball with excellent defensive driving skills and was able to avert a crash - maybe shakes the drivers up and life goes on. A crime taking place a day and a half later (or so), does not make Honey's uncharacteristic forgetfulness in responding with her regrets to a committee meeting during likely her busiest social season (nevermind all of the other personal events taking place at that time), become a part of the murder.

Honey was out and about, and seen at the Apotex offices and in fact attended a meeting with both Barry and at least one other person, a day AFTER the missed meeting. So it is not like she missed a meeting and wasn't seen in public ever again and then ended up dead. (If Honey had NOT been seen the following day and THEN ended up murdered, we might have something to theorize about.)

In fact, I know from experience that often in December, organizations will schedule their meetings for early in the month, or omit their December meeting altogether, just because it IS such a busy time for most everyone.... and yet here is Honey, who not only had the usual holiday festivities to organize, but had all of these additional things on the go, and on her mind. Her being murdered a day and a half later does not suddenly make the missed meeting/forgotten regrets take on ominous significance. Sure, it's something for LE to check out, just in case, but it is certainly understandable, imo.
 
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