Canada - Connor, 6, & Noah Barthe, 4, killed by python, Campbellton, NB, 5 Aug 2013

[Steely Dan]

Python pet store yields 27 illegal species, some endangered



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b.../09/nb-illegal-animals-campbellton-snake.html

They did euthanize 4 of the animals already, as per live news report on CP24. 21 are being sent to Ontario. sigh. All of the animals were in good health according to the representative of Magnetic Hill Zoo.

:sigh: This is one reason why exotic animals should be much more closely monitored. JMO

 

[nao]

tortoises, iguanas are not illegal in BC, well atleast i know i see them for sale.
the NB pet store was once a zoo, then he changed to retail. As far as i know when they tightened the rules here in BC most of the big snakes ended up in private/educational zoo's or reptile refuge. So it would be people like him who would end up with the big herps, because of experiance.

 

[vulture]

Too bad the four alligators had to be euthanized. It's hard to feel bad for alligators, but still that is sad. If it's true that this guy took in a python to save it from being euthanized, I have sympathy for that but the presence of 27 illegal species in one establishment suggests a less than responsible attitude. If you love animals, please don't get one that you'll have to dump on someone else when it gets too big! It may live a less than happy life in cramped quarters with inferior care and then have to be euthanized. That is not a great life and not a proper way to treat animals in my opinion.

 

[gitana1]

For God's sake woman if you don't already have some lower leg snake chaps get some! If you get bit because you accidentally run over a rattler you are going to get messed up bad!

You can get 17" chaps to wear over your running shoes. If your friend is taking her dog into that area I hope she has gotten him vaccinated against rattle snake venom too.

Venomous snakes bites are often horrendously bad.

https://www.turtleskin.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=SNAKEGAITER

I've looked into something like that but it seems so unwieldy for running. I also looked for them for my dog but it seems so hot. He'd hate it!

I'm much more cautious now. I don't go running as late anymore. I have trained my dog to stay behind me so I can spot a snake before he gets to it. He doesn't run off the trail or investigate anything in the brush - highly, highly trained - but I now put him on the leash on the narrow single tracks when it starts to get dark and also the whole time during the fall (when the babies come out because they are more venomous and vicious), so that I can yank him backwards if need be.

As for me, I am very scared of rattlers but in all the time I've been hiking/running and encountered them, only two close calls. we all walked over a baby once that was on the curb by the car! Didn't notice him until we passed, and not a darn thing happened.

A couple years ago a couple dogs died bitten by rattlers at my main running spot but that's because the owner let them just run through the brush in the storm run-off basin. Nevertheless, I see dumbies running around in the brush all the time and that's the only death I've heard of, or bite. I warn people but it happens a lot.

I guess I weigh the risk. And believe me, I can be paranoid, but in ten years of consistently hiking running trails and a lifetime of running around the canyon trails, my dangerous encounters have been really, relatively rare.

This is for ginita1 beware rattlesnakes while jogging
List of fatal snake bites in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.whig.com/story/23066847/vigil-set-for-2-canada-boys-strangled-by-python

"Once they are in constricting mode, any part of their body that is touching something that moves, they'll wrap it," he said. "I've seen snakes with two different prey items at the same time, one with the back of the body and one with the front. It could have been an incident like that."

I discussed this with my son since we had a number of snakes for a few years, how 2 boys without one sounding alarm, could be taken by the snake. But then we saw the size of the snake, the boys were probably close together, the boys probably woke when the snake came thru the ceiling, it would be the movement that set the snake to constrict, once snakes are in hunting mode they are very reactionary. I can imagine the situation easily. jmo moo

http://factsanddetails.com/Asian.php?itemid=2439&catid=68&subcatid=434

everything you want to know about pythons in above link - lists of attacks on humans near end of page.

Thanks nao. That list actually reassures me a bit because there are actually very few and many are from people running around in the brush or handling them.

One is pretty scary though because the guy was bitten by a rattler and died in minutes. I always thought I might have time to get to help!

 

[defense101]

What is sad is that this is the last we will comment on this, make a bet.

 

[Steely Dan]

You'd lose then.

 

[Ausgirl]

What is sad is that this is the last we will comment on this, make a bet.

What?

I'm waiting on the full autopsy reports. Rather than speculating any further. I intend to follow this up, to see Savoie charged as he rightly should be.

So I don't know what you're saying, there. Sorry.

My one bit of speculation today is this: Yes, Savoie's store -used to be - a "zoo". Zoos have very different regulations to pet stores. I would love a Canadian member to tell us what the difference is in Canada, but I am fairly certain in any country, zoos are not permitted to sell the offspring of their animals to the public.

So Savoie was a "zoo" until he'd legally collected a pile of otherwise unobtainable or illegal animals. Hey, some of them he got for free, awesome. Then started breeding them, changed status of business to "pet shop" and --voila -- $profit.

Only he forgot that the animals he was selling weren't Canadian citizens just cause they were like, born in Canada.

Or he was scamming with the zoo thing, and working toward making a fat illegal buck. One or the other.

 

[Steely Dan]

Told ya. :seeya:

 

[defense101]

OK make a bet this will be, don't go there Steely LOL

 

[nao]

When the rules changed in BC, -you were not allowed to "sell" the large breeds. But people still had breeding stock.
Some kept there own, some people made belts(maybe) some were probably let loose but most were shifted to the private zoo's like Savoie had at the time. There were/are some small "educational zoo's" in BC that probably took some.
I do not remember the government offering amnesty, or alternative places for the "now banned reptiles" .
It's fine to change the rules but plans need to be put in place. People don't want see their stock euthenized, Some of those big designer(albino an such) snakes are so beautiful. Thats why these little private zoo's pop up or reptile refuges, I don't now if these places are licenced or just accepted till someone complains.

If Savoie was breeding banned reptiles then he is in the wrong. But if he has old banned stock that he had taken in from other owners when he had the zoo - that is a different situation. And it was known among the reptile community that he had these reptiles, they have no right to bad mouth and to get rightious now.

If Savoie had left the cage unlocked-that would be neglect, But-no-one expected the snake to escape-much less do harm. Even aggressive snakes are not going to leap at you like a mad dog - its just not snake behavior.
I hope the family has a say in what happens, they have laid the children to rest, those children had full exciting lives. If the family accepts it as an accident then so be it. JMO MOO

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Asphyxiation definitely does not necessarily mean strangulation. Strangulation is only one means of asphyxiation.

A constrictor constricts, meaning it squeezes. If your chest is compressed or squeezed, by whatever means, you cannot breathe. That is asphyxiation.

We had a case here in Pittsburgh a few years ago where several members of a suburban police force applied pressure onto the back of an unruly, combative face-down suspect. They ended up asphyxiating the guy.

After an investigation the officers were absolved of guilt, with it being ruled an accidental death.

 

[SwampMama]

So JC has now had all of the animals removed from him. I am wondering what effect this repercussions this may have on his custody of his child. If I remember correctly, he had full custody of the child with the stipulation that all animals would be locked down with 2 locks on their cages (read this early on, will find link if needed). So he failed to do that and 2 children died due to his refusal to take the proper care of the animals and his child. I wonder if the child's mom or the gov't will step in and challenge his custody of his son. Sure the animals are now gone so there is no danger from them now BUT it was his choices and neglect that is the direct cause of the 2 boys death.

I really wonder when the time of death was, not that it matters much, I guess. I am sure it was quick. Hubby and I were playing and roughhousing once and he got me in a scissor-hold and squeezed me, thinking that I was being quiet because i wasn't surrendering. In fact he had squeezed my breath out that quick and I had no ability to even cry out because I couldn't draw a breath. He quickly realized that I was in distress and felt terrible for weeks over it but we were just roughhousing so it was an honest mistake. i was shocked at how quick and easy it was for me to be incapacitated.

I feel so bad for the 2 poor little boys and their mom who buried them together so they won't be alone and will have each other. I don't know how a mother goes on in life after something as horrific as this.

 

[Ausgirl]

Nao, I've found your posts very informative, thanks for the info on the zoos, etc. I agree, there should be plans in place to deal with the animals, for their welfare. If it was cute fuzzy kitties or dogs, this wouldn't happen, probably. It's really not good enough.

However - in Savoie's case, he put a large snake in an enclosure that was apparently not designed for snakes, but for crocs which cannot climb, of course. No reason to secure the ceiling...

The snake had escaped, apparently, in that same exact way -prior- to this tragedy. So he KNEW it was a possibility that this notoriously aggressive animal knew how to get out through the vent. And he clearly did not make 100% sure it could not do so again.

And then put two small boys smelling like farm animals in the room beside it.

Which all = criminal neglect. IMO.

The locks had nothing to do with the snake's escape. So yes, I think it was a bit more than an accident. But we'll see what the charges/courts have to say I guess.

 

[Ausgirl]

"I think the message will be passed here again today in this church that, you know, it was an accident. Let's not rush to judgment," said Comeau.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ton-python-deaths-barthe-funeral.html?cmp=rss

Comeau being the Deputy Mayor who personally inspected the shop 6 months before and found it all A-OK, illegal species, unapproved dwelling, and all.

And if Savoie is charged with neglect - it won't look too good for Comeau. What's the bet the finding is 'death by accident' here?

 

[nao]

Quote Ausgirl post 313
in Savoie's case, he put a large snake in an enclosure that was apparently not designed for snakes, but for crocs which cannot climb, of course. No reason to secure the ceiling.

Savoie was an experienced reptile keeper, snake was 16yrs old (i think) the ceiling was secured, or any snake would be long gone. My guess is he used wire of some kind, being it was a venting system and needs airflow, snakes just need to get their skull thru. The purpose of life for most pet snakes is -how do i get out of here- the snake knew there was a weakness, the snake had been pushing at it since --when was that last escape?

"this notoriously aggressive animal" -- means it does not like to be handled.
Even if the snakes escapes -- you would not expect it to kill anything, human or otherwise
When has an escaped snake killed before??

Dogs chow down on people, on a regular basis. I have noticed that if dog and mauled person live in same house it's called an accident quite often. I've always had big dogs, but the the acceptance of aggressive dogs, i find frightening.

Steely Dan is right, no one really cares (or see's large snakes as a death threat) well at least society did the right thing, kill the unwanted, and to what zoo's did they send the other reptiles?? jmo moo

 

[angelainwi]

http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/2013/8/snake-deaths-now-a-murder-investigation/

 

[wfgodot]

That fox.au article is dated 08 August and appears to be a sensationalized version of the "homicide investigation" aspect of the case. No other source I can find reports this to be a murder investigation.

 

[Tink]

Nao, if you don't expect an escaped snake to harm someone, why the emphasis on keeping it safely away from people? Why was he only allowed custody of his son by promising to keep the cage double-locked? I feel like you are saying that this guy was not at all at fault because he couldn't possibly have anticipated the snake doing any harm.

Tink

 

[matou]

"It was a flaw, it was actually a flaw," said Tim Thomas, referring to the large glass enclosure that went all the way up to the ceiling.

He revealed the information when he spoke last Friday to Urban Jungles Radio Network, a web-based radio program about reptiles.

"It's a ventilation fan that's in the ceiling, OK?" said Thomas. "Now, I'm not sure if it was me that took that fan out, because it had burnt out … or maybe somebody had taken the fan out and forgot to cover it up, replace it or what.

"But I mean, nobody would ever …. This is, like, a one-in-a-million-shot deal that this would actually happen, and it did. It did. Unfortunately, it did."

How do you forget if you took a fan out of a vent or not??? wow.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/08/14/nb-python-campbellton-boys-escaped.html

 

[matou]

Bry Loyst, from Peterborough's Indian River Reptile Zoo, was in Reptile Ocean last week, co-ordinating the removal of 27 illegal animals.

He confirmed there was a hole in the ceiling, where the fan used to be. Loyst also said that the ceiling beside the enclosure was covered in black mould.

Loyst said in his opinion, based on what he saw, it would have been easy for the python to escape.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/08/14/nb-python-campbellton-boys-escaped.html