Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[Patriciao]

when lee asked Casey 'is this like last time?' I think Casey must have taken off with Caylee once before.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

This case is eating me up. I can't quit thinking about it. Round and round in my head the different scenarios go. I must be a narcissist because I find myself thinking that I may be able to uncover the answers as to why this happened to sweet Caylee.

It's upsetting to contemplate the behaviors that some grown-ups inflict upon their children and the people they say they love. When you think about it, something must of gone wrong when they were children too but not necessarily (experts disagree about what causes certain behaviors).

When a particular member of a family breaks away from whatever the sickness is, looks themself straight on in the mirror and says 'I want to heal and I'm willing to do the work' it amazes me. First, how and why did the light come on? Where did they get the strength to confront the inner workings of the viscious cycle - like breaking out of the grips of a tornado broken but able to put yourself back together at least partially. Then that success is told to your children and they are amazed and glean strength from your story and hopefully pass it on.

Honesty, awareness, breaking thru pride, owning yourself are good traits/actions that aid in healing those who are broken. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a magic pill for this? The 'get it together' pill?

Studing this case has opened my eyes to many things/ailments I did not have an understanding of and I'm not convinced that's a good thing as they say ignorance is bliss. A concept I find myself pondering is, with all the possibilities there are for unhealthy conditions that afflict people, who is 'normal'? The answer may be based upon the degree of infliction a person and/or a family suffers. For instance when does having true self esteem cross over into narcissism - a condition caused by masking the fact that your self esteem is really fragile - a defense mechanism of sorts. How can we teach self awareness, promote self esteem without causing a person to focus on theirself versus thinking of others over theirself? In our success oriented culture, how do you guide a child to be prepared to make a living, become independent without playing to their strengths? If you play to their strengths too much do they then become conceited? When your world revolves around your child how can you be sure he/she doesn't know it? The more I think about this stuff, the more confused I get. If anybody figures it out, please let me know - ha!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

OLG and/or anybody who knows ~ can you give an example of what splitting looks like in real life? The explanation within the link I'm providing gets very confusing. I can't quite picture this - what might a person who does this say/act like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Thank you.

This next link begins to break it down to allow for better understanding - [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation[/ame]


Reality testing is one function of the Ego it is defined as, 'The ego's capacity to distinguish what is occurring in one's own mind from what is occurring in the external world.
It is perhaps the single most important ego funcion because it is necessary for negotiating with the outside world.'

IMO CA and KC both have trouble with reality testing. CA is in another reality altogether as far as the circumstances surrounding the case. KC, for instance, had already imagined herself married to TL after having known him for only four weeks. Plus the whole idea that KC had a job the two plus years after Caylee was born. We could think of many examples where they don't seem connected to the reality of what is going on.

Defense functioning is another function of the ego and entails 'initial defenses develop in infancy and involve the boundary between the self and the outer world; they are considered primitive defenses and include projection, denial, and splitting. ...

Synthesis is then supposed to be the final function but doesn't always occur.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_psychology[/ame]

 

[lala]

Respectfully Quoted lala

And, I will agree right back at you. You are right, Cindy does not really feel any true guilt or she would act completely different. I know what you are saying, if she felt guilt like (if I may be so bold to speak for you) :blushing: you or I would feel she would want to come clean. If I felt guilt I couldn't stand to live with myself, and when you feel that way(meaning you are a person who takes responsibility for existing in the world) you usually do not find yourself in Cindy's position because you avoid doing things you would feel guilty about in the first place.

It is my own guilt at wondering if I am judging "these people" and I am being somehow a bad person and causing them more pain. You know, what separates me from Cindy and Casey? They sure think what they think is right, I don't want to be like that: blind. I give too much benefit of the doubt but my real feelings are: I feel they have no feelings for anyone but themselves. My true feelings are: Cindy has never felt guilty about anything in her life and is incapable. So, I do agree with ye.

Casey blames Cindy and Cindy blames Casey and neither one of them cares or cared about Caylee. The same dynamic we are seeing since it all went down is the same, imo that has always been going on. None of the Anthony's behavior is because of what happened, it is just the same behavior they have always had and it is what made it all happen. All of them. Together.

In my world view these are cosmic lessons we all are seeing unfold. Casey draws to herself the defense she has because she and her family have been on a path just like we are all on a path...I am happy I am on my path and some of my "gentleness" with them is partly out of just being so glad I am not them. :innocent:

Call it psychological or "spiritual/religious" based some people have a belief in a need to take care of their immortal soul. I am not trying to be religious, because really I call this just being a good person. From that perspective(anyone coming from that perspective)knows that Cindy does not really feel guilt. Psychologically, Cindy may feel guilt but have such a personality disorder that all she can do is push the responsibility off on others. I think psychologically, Casey never even comes close to even almost feeling that any thing is her fault or feeling anything remotely close to guilt.

I don't know which bothers me more? Cindy because she seems like she has some skills to "know better"(I suppose because she has not actually killed anyone)or Casey who is so cold she probably never had nor has any true loving emotions: which causes a lot of feelings of revulsion and (sorry) hate for her. Of course I feel the same about Cindy as soon as I hear her speak or read her words. :furious:

I hope in my rambling you can tell I understand what you are saying and I agree.

:twocents:

I can tell...and you stated it beautifully!!!!

 

[OneLostGrl]

OLG and/or anybody who knows ~ can you give an example of what splitting looks like in real life? The explanation within the link I'm providing gets very confusing. I can't quite picture this - what might a person who does this say/act like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Thank you.

This next link begins to break it down to allow for better understanding - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation


Reality testing is one function of the Ego it is defined as, 'The ego's capacity to distinguish what is occurring in one's own mind from what is occurring in the external world.
It is perhaps the single most important ego funcion because it is necessary for negotiating with the outside world.'

IMO CA and KC both have trouble with reality testing. CA is in another reality altogether as far as the circumstances surrounding the case. KC, for instance, had already imagined herself married to TL after having known him for only four weeks. Plus the whole idea the KC had a job the two plus years after Caylee was born. We could think of many examples where they don't seem connected to the reality of what is going on.

Defense functioning is another function of the ego and entails 'initial defenses develop in infancy and involve the boundary between the self and the outer world; they are considered primitive defenses and include projection, denial, and splitting. ...

Synthesis is then supposed to be the final function but doesn't always occur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_psychology

Like when Cindy is angry with Casey she tells her friends she is a sociopath, that they had better have a lot of money cuz she'll steal it from them... she steals from her own parents. Then when she is not angry with her she is the worlds best mother, Casey didn't steal the money, Cindy gave it to her, that Casey never even cashed the "birthday check". etc etc. The person becomes all good or all bad.. they love you or they hate you.. and that love/hate/good/bad thing can switch back and forth from hour to hour or day to day. The thing/ behavior they hated yesterday they may idealize tomorrow. It's very confusing and many people who "love" a splitter learn to stop having their own opinion, their own emotions, feelings, ideas and values because they have been devalued so often it stops being worth it.

Example-

When I was a kid and would get sick I'd never know if my mother would comfort me (to the extent of smothering at times) or scream at me that I was faking and just trying to screw up her day. Each time i got sick her reaction would be different, I'd be her poor, beautiful sick child or her selfish, lying brat.

ETA- IMO the reason Casey attaches herself to people so quickly is because all she has ever known about love is EXTREME.. all consuming, no boundries, taking on the others ideals and likes/dislikes, becoming a part of the person they "love". Nothing less has ever been acceptable.

 

[OneLostGrl]

This case is eating me up. I can't quit thinking about it. Round and round in my head the different scenarios go. I must be a narcissist because I find myself thinking that I may be able to uncover the answers as to why this happened to sweet Caylee.

It's upsetting to contemplate the behaviors that some grown-ups inflict upon their children and the people they say they love. When you think about it, something must of gone wrong when they were children too but not necessarily (experts disagree about what causes certain behaviors).

When a particular member of a family breaks away from whatever the sickness is, looks themself straight on in the mirror and says 'I want to heal and I'm willing to do the work' it amazes me. First, how and why did the light come on? Where did they get the strength to confront the inner workings of the viscious cycle - like breaking out of the grips of a tornado broken but able to put yourself back together at least partially. Then that success is told to your children and they are amazed and glean strength from your story and hopefully pass it on.

Honesty, awareness, breaking thru pride, owning yourself are good traits/actions that aid in healing those who are broken. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a magic pill for this? The 'get it together' pill?

Studing this case has opened my eyes to many things/ailments I did not have an understanding of and I'm not convinced that's a good thing as they say ignorance is bliss. A concept I find myself pondering is, with all the possibilities there are for unhealthy conditions that afflict people, who is 'normal'? The answer may be based upon the degree of infliction a person and/or a family suffers. For instance when does having true self esteem cross over into narcissism - a condition caused by masking the fact that your self esteem is really fragile - a defense mechanism of sorts. How can we teach self awareness, promote self esteem without causing a person to focus on theirself versus thinking of others over theirself? In our success oriented culture, how do you guide a child to be prepared to make a living, become independent without playing to their strengths? If you play to their strengths too much do they then become conceited? When your world revolves around your child how can you be sure he/she doesn't know it? The more I think about this stuff, the more confused I get. If anybody figures it out, please let me know - ha!

Everyone has some of the traits, even "normal" people. When it becomes pervasive and pathological is when it becomes unhealthy .

 

[countzero]

Everyone has some of the traits, even "normal" people. When it becomes pervasive and pathological is when it becomes unhealthy .

Top post of this thread. Your ONE sentence sums it up totally. Thank you.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Like when Cindy is angry with Casey she tells her friends she is a sociopath, that they had better have a lot of money cuz she'll steal it from them... she steals from her own parents. Then when she is not angry with her she is the worlds best mother, Casey didn't steal the money, Cindy gave it to her, that Casey never even cashed the "birthday check". etc etc. The person becomes all good or all bad.. they love you or they hate you.. and that love/hate/good/bad thing can switch back and forth from hour to hour or day to day. The thing/ behavior they hated yesterday they may idealize tomorrow. It's very confusing and many people who "love" a splitter learn to stop having their own opinion, their own emotions, feelings, ideas and values because they have been devalued so often it stops being worth it.

Example-

When I was a kid and would get sick I'd never know if my mother would comfort me (to the extent of smothering at times) or scream at me that I was faking and just trying to screw up her day. Each time i got sick her reaction would be different, I'd be her poor, beautiful sick child or her selfish, lying brat.

ETA- IMO the reason Casey attaches herself to people so quickly is because all she has ever known about love is EXTREME.. all consuming, no boundries, taking on the others ideals and likes/dislikes, becoming a part of the person they "love". Nothing less has ever been acceptable.

Thanks OLG. I was on the right track then because I had thought of that, that is that CA told RP about KC being a Sociopath and it sounded as if CA had come to grips regarding KC's behavior (yet he was conversing happily with KC right around the time Caylee went missing so he didn't take CA's advice) but then in her next breath CA calls KC 'mother of the year'. That would be very confusing to a child to not know what to expect from one day to the next. It would be like walking on eggshells at all times.

So the behavior or reaction the child gets is dependant upon the mother's mood at that time. Whatever the child might be going through (legitimate things) will be received or responded to based on the mood of the mother/person at that time. They are unable to keep you separate - the timing of your illness has nothing to do with what they had planned or were doing that day. So it would feel as if the world is supposed to revolve around them. Heck with you. Eventually you might feel that you have no say/don't matter. Please your mom or look out. The child is not perceived as a separate entity.

A little o/t, I've noticed a phenomenon happening these days - maybe because I'm an older mom and some of my friends kids are young to mid adults already and it's that the kid's time has been so structured by their parents - with good intentions - when they become adults they are having trouble branching out on their own. Like their mom was telling them what to do at every turn (and loving it) and everything seemed fine but then all of a sudden either the mom gets left behind or the child is lost without the mom. I'm not sure if any of the situations I've observed of late would be splitting but it's like the mom has had a script for the child but when the child leans away from the script the mom becomes unnerved. I'll say that a person has to go out on their own, even make some mistakes and find the right fit for theirself. In other words, the mom puts a goal before their child that is really their goal and not the childs. There comes a time when your child might actually know what is best for himself/herself. You have to show that you have faith in that individual person who happens to be your child not run his life for him.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Top post of this thread. Your ONE sentence sums it up totally. Thank you.

I know, OLG has a way of saying good stuff short and sweet.

The only thing is the close to 'normal' ones doubt themselves and the pathological ones seldom think there's anything wrong with them which causes the 'normal' ones to go nuts. :waitasec:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thanks OLG. I was on the right track then because I had thought of that, that is that CA told RP about KC being a Sociopath and it sounded as if CA had come to grips regarding KC's behavior (yet he was conversing happily with KC right around the time Caylee went missing so he didn't take CA's advice) but then in her next breath CA calls KC 'mother of the year'. That would be very confusing to a child to not know what to expect from one day to the next. It would be like walking on eggshells at all times.

So the behavior or reaction the child gets is dependant upon the mother's mood at that time. Whatever the child might be going through (legitimate things) will be received or responded to based on the mood of the mother/person at that time. They are unable to keep you separate - the timing of your illness has nothing to do with what they had planned or were doing that day. So it would feel as if the world is supposed to revolve around them. Heck with you. Eventually you might feel that you have no say/don't matter. Please your mom or look out. The child is not perceived as a separate entity.

A little o/t, I've noticed a phenomenon happening these days - maybe because I'm an older mom and some of my friends kids are young to mid adults already and it's that the kid's time has been so structured by their parents - with good intentions - when they become adults they are having trouble branching out on their own. Like their mom was telling them what to do at every turn (and loving it) and everything seemed fine but then all of a sudden either the mom gets left behind or the child is lost without the mom. I'm not sure if any of the situations I've observed of late would be splitting but it's like the mom has had a script for the child but when the child leans away from the script the mom becomes unnerved. I'll say that a person has to go out on their own, even make some mistakes and find the right fit for theirself. In other words, the mom puts a goal before their child that is really their goal and not the childs. There comes a time when your child might actually know what is best for himself/herself. You have to show that you have faith in that individual person who happens to be your child not run his life for him.

As to your O/T- I think lots of parents go through that- it's tough to let go of your child- it's tough to suddenly be faced with no longer being "mommy" to your child. My son is 16 and I'm going through he!! trying to figure out how far to let go.. (especially because I have no normal to look back at and compare to say "Ok, I should be teaching him how to cook or he should be doing his own laundry, etc). I miss him, being his "mommy" in a way that I can't even begin to find words for and at times I find myself telling him so.. but then I worry that it'll come across as a guilt trip like my mom made me feel when I was growing up so I back off a bit but then I worry that he'll think I don't care. He hates me to hug him and it kills me but then I try to remind myself that when I was 16 I didn't want my mother all touching me either. I used to be an active part of his life and suddenly I'm this woman who is just in his way, treating him "like a little kid". It's their JOB to outgrow us and it's OUR job to let them- regardless of how empty we may feel inside or how unsure we may be of who we are without them taking up every second of our day. I can understand how a parent would have a hard time letting go but I also know first hand what a dis-service it is to hold on too tight. ITA with you that kids must make their own mistakes and we must let them no matter how difficult it may be to watch them fall at times. IMO One of the biggest problems in our society today is over parenting.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I know, OLG has a way of saying good stuff short and sweet.

The only thing is the close to 'normal' ones doubt themselves and the pathological ones seldom think there's anything wrong with them which causes the 'normal' ones to go nuts. :waitasec:

"crazy making"

 

[Woe.be.gone]

As to your O/T- I think lots of parents go through that- it's tough to let go of your child- it's tough to suddenly be faced with no longer being "mommy" to your child. My son is 16 and I'm going through he!! trying to figure out how far to let go.. (especially because I have no normal to look back at and compare to say "Ok, I should be teaching him how to cook or he should be doing his own laundry, etc). I miss him, being his "mommy" in a way that I can't even begin to find words for and at times I find myself telling him so.. but then I worry that it'll come across as a guilt trip like my mom made me feel when I was growing up so I back off a bit but then I worry that he'll think I don't care. He hates me to hug him and it kills me but then I try to remind myself that when I was 16 I didn't want my mother all touching me either. I used to be an active part of his life and suddenly I'm this woman who is just in his way, treating him "like a little kid". It's their JOB to outgrow us and it's OUR job to let them- regardless of how empty we may feel inside or how unsure we may be of who we are without them taking up every second of our day. I can understand how a parent would have a hard time letting go but I also know first hand what a dis-service it is to hold on too tight. ITA with you that kids must make their own mistakes and we must let them no matter how difficult it may be to watch them fall at times. IMO One of the biggest problems in our society today is over parenting.

Ditto OLG. Mine slipped the other day and said 'I love you' and then quickly added 'just kidding'. Regarding laundry - I'm afraid he'll ruin the machines. Cooking - we've got ramen down - burns the popcorn. Oh and just in case I don't realize it he reminds me that I don't know everything. And I DO know that - ha!

Also I try to remember how I was at 15 and 16 and beyond even - ugh!!!!

The two moms I'm thinking of are great gals, high energy types who just happen to have had kids who easily went along with their suggestions and plans for them. My observation is that it seems that every child/young adult eventually has to break free one way or the other - it is the goal, the role of parents to grow independent adults. That said, teenagers still need a parent but they think they don't. That's why I can be on here so much because I'm able to be home and keep an eye on things but also respond when I'm needed. I think we should be more worried if they weren't separating from us. My little boy is gone but I'm praying he'll become a decent man if the time in between doesn't kill me first.

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS :cool2:

I'm going to give you my train of thought because I don't know what I am getting at...

Other people have asked this question but: why didn't Casey get rid of Caylee in another manner? Why didn't she give her away?

Because Casey didn't want Cindy to "know"/be right that she was a bad mother. Plus, Cindy wouldn't have let Caylee be taken by another family. And Casey didn't want Caylee but she wanted Cindy to have Caylee even less.

I have wondered, why Casey didn't kill Caylee in more of a manner that would have lent to an "accident?" She could claim to be a grieving mother, get the sympathy and move on...I get that Cindy might have blamed her and still called her a bad mother for an accident, but Cindy was doing that anyway(calling her a bad mom) and again...make it an accident that could have happened to "anybody." Ya know?

What I think my mind is getting at, that I don't want to think about is this: maybe Casey killed Caylee in the manner that she did because she wanted to. I am starting to think that the duct tape and the trunk and the manner in which Caylee was disposed was exactly what Casey thought of Caylee.

I don't think I am the first to think this, but this is the first time I am thinking about this...

The idea that Casey did what she did to Caylee, in the manner that she did because she is a "spiteful *****" was said by Casey herself. I have been of the opinion that she did what she did to Caylee to spite Cindy but Cindy wasn't ever supposed to know about Caylee. Casey seemed like she was just going to go on keeping Cindy and George at bay, was she expecting George and Cindy to accept never seeing Caylee ever again?

After all of that...I still do not know why Casey killed Caylee. I mean I know...she wanted her freedom and she is a narcissist who can't share love or give love to others...

So, back to the "fight" Cindy and Casey had on the 15th. Yeah, there had to have been some things said between Cindy and Casey that led Casey to murder, in a most awful hateful way...Caylee Marie. Thinking about it now, Casey had to have wanted to murder Caylee, not just get rid of her. I agree with the opinion that Casey does not think too far ahead, she was mad at Cindy and hated her control and didn't love Caylee. She could have never loved Caylee to hurt her in that way. Obvious statement, sorry.

I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.

We saw Casey's anger in the jail house video/visit and my guess is Caylee had been physically abused before, the kind of anger Casey vented onto Caylee during her murder did not just appear that day. There is evidence that Casey did searches on her computer that lead one to believe she had a plan to murder before she murdered.

So, Casey had premeditated killing(someone)maybe Cindy? Maybe George and Cindy? Maybe she did think of killing Caylee in a "better" manner, one that would keep Casey "innocent" but then Cindy upped the ante on the 15th, by maybe telling Casey "that's it, were filling for custody." ? Then, Casey had "no choice" as she was heading to stay at TL and he didn't want Caylee around and Casey chose to vent her rage on Caylee.

I am so ready to hear how the SA puts this together, and I am curious as to how a jury will rule in this case. (understatement of the last two years) :crazy:

Okay. Sorry, this is not a point...it is stuff I had to get out of my head. Thanks everyone.

:twocents:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Chiquita ~ what you say here is, like you said, everything I don't want to think, cannot imagine. But other posters, it seems, have been convinced of a version of what happened such as this one for a long time.

I'd like to believe it was an accident that went out of control as GA supposedly said. But then why the duct tape, the abandonment of a little body, the unspeakable way the body was just left for months in the woods, etc. If GA knows more then why wouldn't he spill it?

That said, it's looking more and more like a cold and calculated act that maybe wasn't planned for the day it happened but happened nontheless. Otherwise, why wouldn't someone reveal an alternative version of what happened that would make any sense?

 

[Gaia713]

I think deep down Cindy was not happy in any way shape or form how her daughter turned out. I think Cindy looked on Caylee as her (Cindy's) second chance to raise a loveable daughter. I think Cindy regarded Caylee as her (Cindy's) child, never Casey's. And I don't think Cindy wanted to share Caylee with Casey. I think Casey was getting rid of Cindy's "baby," not her own.

That's how I see it anyway.

The motive was not Casey's freedom - the motive was to get back at Cindy.

This is one of the sickest families I have EVER seen. Cindy is obsessed with controlling every situation. Has she ever given an interview with George where she isn't constantly keeping her hand on his body to control his speech. I see George and I think this man is like a ventriloquist dummy. Has anyone else noticed that the only tiome he seems to be honest is when Cindy is not around?

 

[the seeker]

Hello WS :cool2:


I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.


:twocents:

In other words it was personal....I agree.

 

[ThinkTank]

Who is the man that Cindy is hugging on December 17, 2008, in their driveway?

 

[nort]

As close as she is to him perhaps she was trying to score some DNA, a loose hair or a clothes fiber for future use. SORRY IMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

The only descriptor I could find said, "an unidentified family friend."

http://www.mctdirect.com/photos/sea...=H3&current=3&traverse=1&channel=2&view=thumb

 

[ThinkTank]

The only descriptor I could find said, "an unidentified family friend."

http://www.mctdirect.com/photos/sea...=H3&current=3&traverse=1&channel=2&view=thumb

Thank you!
The OS posted this caption - Orlando Sentinel
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2008-12/43999237.jpg
"Cindy Anthony, right, grandmother of missing 3 year-old Caylee Marie Anthony, hugs an unidentified family friend, Wednesday, December 17, 2008, in the front yard of the Anthony home in Orlando, Florida, as George Anthony looks on at left"

Does anybody know if the man is the Anthony family friend and attorney Paul Kelley?

Attorney Paul Kelley, family friend of Anthonys....http://www.bichlerlaw.com/attorney-bios.html