Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[OneLostGrl]

Well, I agree with you on most points. Here's what the experts who focus on psychopaths agree on:

(I clipped the end of the article which is quite long)

Some researchers think that psychopathy is the result of some attachment or bonding difficulty as an infant. Dr. Hare has turned the idea around, after all his years digging into the background of psychopaths. He says:
In some children the very failure to bond is a symptom of psychopathy. It is likely that these children lack the capacity to bond readily, and that their lack of attachment is largely the result, not the cause, of psychopathy. [Hare]

In other words: they are born that way and you can't fix them.

To many people, the idea of a child psychopath is almost unthinkable. But the fact is, true psychopaths are born, not made. Oh, indeed, there is the psychopath that is "made," but they are generally different from the born psychopath in a number of ways.

One mother said: "We were never able to get close to her even as an infant. She was always trying to have her own way, whether by being sweet, or by having a tantrum. She can put on a sweet and contrite act…"

The fact is: childhood psychopathy is a stark reality, and failing to recognize it can lead to years of vain attempts to discover what is wrong with a child, and the parent blaming themselves.

Hare writes:
As the signs of social breakdown grow more insistent, we no longer have the luxury of ignoring the presence of psychopathy in certain children. Half a century ago Hervey Cleckley and Robert Lindner warned us that our failure to acknowledge the psychopaths among us had already triggered a social crisis. Today our social institutions - our schools, courts, mental health clinics - confront the crisis every day in a thousand ways, and the blindfold against the reality of psychopathy is still in place.[…]

The fact is, clinical research clearly demonstrates that psychopathy does not spring unannounced into existence in adulthood. The symptoms reveal themselves in early life. It seems to be true that parents of psychopaths KNOW something is dreadfully wrong even before the child starts school. Such children are stubbornly immune to socializing pressures. They are "different" from other children in inexplicable ways. They are more "difficult," or "willful," or aggressive, or hard to "relate to." They are difficult to get close to, cold and distant and self-sufficient.

So either she chose to be that way or she was genetically built to be that way. If you go with that ^ theory she really had no choices, she was born to fail. I'm sorry, I just don't think people are created to fail.

It's like saying you believe in the "divine plan" but praying against "what's meant to be". Things are either meant to be or they are not.. You can't have it both ways. I personally believe we are all capable of choosing the type of life we want to live- we are not doomed by our genetics... but that's just me.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for the above. How far will a parent go to have their child love and respect them? Fortunately for me, my girls did and do, but if I'd had a highly manipulative child incapable of love or respect - I truly don't know.

By the way, not intending to make Cindy the victim here - but we have talked so much about Cindy being in control of this family, and when I look at George and ICA - I'm completely bewildered where the word "control" comes in. (who knows about Lee!) Sure superficially it appeared she did - but in actual deeds or actions - they both seemed to completely ignore CA and went on their jolly way doing whatever they wanted.

The control is kept through the learned helplessness, the constant fixing of the persons problems, the low self esteem and self doubt.. the manipulation and lies. You never really become your own person, their ideals become your own because that's how it had to be or else you never hear the end of it (talk about walking on egg shells) You doubt your abilities, you think you can't make it on your own and you become dependant on the controller. The control is not the typical "control". Their biggest fear is abandonment.. she keeps control by making sure they need her and won't leave her. that's why these types allow the stealing and lying because if she confronts them they just might leave her and then who is she.. what's she got then? Her worst fears may just come true and she cannot risk that!

Casey kept Caylee because her mother told her to, right? That's a pretty hefty chunk of control right there.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Those that enable are just as disturbed as the sociopaths they enable. And even more frustrating to be around. At least sociopaths are charming when they want something. My experience with enablers is that they are strong willed go-getters that have the tact of bull-dozers.

I know an elderly couple that kept on lending their sociopath son money for grandiose schemes until they went bankrupt and the farm that had been in the family for generations ended up sold at a sheriff's auction. But, still the couple defended their thieving son and went to all of their friends to try to get money for their son's defense. The son shot himself on the day he was supposed to turn himself in. The elderly father died soon after that. The elderly mother lives with her DIL (my aunt) and is every bit as strong and untruthful in her defense of her son as Cindy Anthony.

The other enabler that I know in real life is my father-in-law. His son, my brother-in-law, has never, ever, suffered a single consequence for ANYTHING bad he has done because my father-in-law buys his way out. My brother-in-law is over 50 years old and last week my father-in-law gave $12K to my BIL's victim to keep the victim from going to authorities. My father-in-law pretends to be dumb and says he believes everything my brother-in-law says.

The enablers I know have things in common with Cindy:

They don't steal, nor would they.

They lie.

They are highly organized in their own lives. Cindy's house kept her house neat as a pin...something not easy to do when have the worries of a deathly ill father, marital woes, a thieving husband and daughter, a full-time job and a toddler with thousands of toys to strew.

They are goal oriented and high achievers. The enablers I know and Cindy Anthony all finished college. They did outstandingly well at work and had stable, even exemplary, work histories.

They are strong people (you might say dominating control-freaks).

They are perfectionists.

They go weak at the knees and cave at the thought of their spoiled child being upset. My 50+ aged brother-in-law still throws tantrums and I've never seen my father-in-law do anything back except cringe and wheedle.
​

I can look at the enablers and see how the spoiled-rotten sociopaths I know came about. But, I am having a huge problem seeing how the enablers that are so successful in so many other parts of their lives can be so obsessive about their little sociopaths?

I do disagree with all who say Cindy did not love Casey and Caylee. My father-in-law is a brave war hero who has and would again sacrifice his life for others. I've seen the tears and grief over what his son is. Cindy looks equally defeated. But, my father-in-law, despite swearing every time he is going to harden his heart, can't stop enabling. He is like a gerbil running uselessly on his wheel.

Sadly co-dependancy becomes like an addiction, they have just as hard a time stopping their behavior as alcoholics and drug addicts do.

My mother has improved sooo much since I was a child but she still gets these times where she attempts to enable me. She cannot stand it if I get upset with her. One day I asked her if I could use her credit card (I have awful credit and can't get one so I give her cash and use the card if I'm getting something online) and I could tell she wanted to say no but she couldn't, she started to hand it over and I said "Mom, if you don't want me to just say so, It's OK, I won't be mad at you" and she said "really, it's ok?!" I said "of course it's ok- it's your card" she went with it but the next day I woke up and found a note on my desk telling me what an awful mother she is and how sorry she was for not letting me use the card, and the card was wrapped in the note (LOL and no i didn't use it but I admit, I was tempted I could probably have charged whatever I wanted and not even pay her for it and she'd say that's her job as a mother.. but it's NOT). She just could not say no- they don't know how to- they need to please and take care of.

They aren't evil they are just sick.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZOW3xuzTo[/ame]

At the 1:20 mark, they speak of CA and DC and their all too comfortable touches...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[logicalgirl]

So either she chose to be that way or she was genetically built to be that way. If you go with that ^ theory she really had no choices, she was born to fail. I'm sorry, I just don't think people are created to fail.

It's like saying you believe in the "divine plan" but praying against "what's meant to be". Things are either meant to be or they are not.. You can't have it both ways. I personally believe we are all capable of choosing the type of life we want to live- we are not doomed by our genetics... but that's just me.

I only know one sociopath "for sure", and this is not about my personal opinion or what I wish for or hope how people can be. My comments come after reading the opinions of experts who have daily worked with and observed this special section of people who are termed sociopaths or psychopaths. I am soft hearted and would like to believe all people are born good, but life and facts have proven me wrong. So I turn to experts, as in the case of a physical injury. I would like to believe we are all born with perfect bodies and in perfect health, but the facts prove me wrong.

As I have noted above, the experts say there are varying degrees of sociopaths, despite love, nurturing, and direction. We read of children who kill because they wanted to see what it was like. It becomes impossible for me to believe this is only a result of upbringing. Some of born without souls - that much is clear to me.

I also believe I must accept and believe in imperfection, so I can live this life. Otherwise I am doomed like CA to keep trying and trying without success to fit a round peg into a square hole. Her quote, "a mother gives a daughter chance after chance".... It is what it is. Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

 

[logicalgirl]

The control is kept through the learned helplessness, the constant fixing of the persons problems, the low self esteem and self doubt.. the manipulation and lies. You never really become your own person, their ideals become your own because that's how it had to be or else you never hear the end of it (talk about walking on egg shells) You doubt your abilities, you think you can't make it on your own and you become dependant on the controller. The control is not the typical "control". Their biggest fear is abandonment.. she keeps control by making sure they need her and won't leave her. that's why these types allow the stealing and lying because if she confronts them they just might leave her and then who is she.. what's she got then? Her worst fears may just come true and she cannot risk that!

Casey kept Caylee because her mother told her to, right? That's a pretty hefty chunk of control right there.

We are really talking about two very separate issues here.

But before I comment about enablers - how do we know ICA kept Caylee because "her mother told her to". I know of no such thing, have read no information that allows me to believe that is true. I've read comments by several relatives who claim this, but that is not enough for me to believe it actually is true. ICA's history and actions tell me she does nothing unless she wants to - in that moment. We do know ICA doesn't even consider the consequences of decisions.

Certainly with my own history as an enabler, it wasn't about the fear of abandonment at all. It was about my own lack of faith in my ability to mother as well as I should have. It was about "is this what it is going to take" ? If I do this for you, will you finally be a happy adult, which is what I want for you? The degree of happiness in their own lives was what the indicator was for me to judge myself as having done a "good" job as a parent. Through it all, the question of whether or not my child loved or approved of me or not wasn't even part of the quotation.

As soon as I cut the ties between my child's success or failure, and my own worth, telling myself I had done the best I could do and it was now up to them, was I finally able to stop enabling.

 

[LambChop]

We are really talking about two very separate issues here.

But before I comment about enablers - how do we know ICA kept Caylee because "her mother told her to". I know of no such thing, have read no information that allows me to believe that is true. I've read comments by several relatives who claim this, but that is not enough for me to believe it actually is true. ICA's history and actions tell me she does nothing unless she wants to - in that moment. We do know ICA doesn't even consider the consequences of decisions.

Certainly with my own history as an enabler, it wasn't about the fear of abandonment at all. It was about my own lack of faith in my ability to mother as well as I should have. It was about "is this what it is going to take" ? If I do this for you, will you finally be a happy adult, which is what I want for you? The degree of happiness in their own lives was what the indicator was for me to judge myself as having done a "good" job as a parent. Through it all, the question of whether or not my child loved or approved of me or not wasn't even part of the quotation.

As soon as I cut the ties between my child's success or failure, and my own worth, telling myself I had done the best I could do and it was now up to them, was I finally able to stop enabling.

You are not alone. We see this everyday with young parents. Buying way too many toys, have to have the latest and greatest at all costs because our little pumpkins want it. When my children were small it was, "I want them to have what I did not." And there they are on Christmas morning climbing in the empty packing boxes playing trains. lol. We all get sucked into the advertising frenze of you have to have this. When I think of myself as a child, and though I did not have a lot of toys, I had favorites plus there were not a lot of toys available at that time. Tea sets, dolls, stuffies. So I had to use my imagination. Educational toys are fine but give a kid an empty box, paints and see what they do with it. It's a car, it's a playhouse, it's a train. Endless possibilities. I remember once being in the car with a blanket on the ground and put all my animals and dolls in the back seat my imaginary car (the blanket) and drove to the beach for lunch.

Now put this into everyday life and this may be why we have so may people with problems. They don't have the tools to cope. We all want to protect our children but at some point they have to learn to not depend on us and figure things out themselves, gain their independence and freedom and feel good about it. KC has no creative imagination she just takes situations from her life and spins them into a lie. jmo

 

[OneLostGrl]

I only know one sociopath "for sure", and this is not about my personal opinion or what I wish for or hope how people can be. My comments come after reading the opinions of experts who have daily worked with and observed this special section of people who are termed sociopaths or psychopaths. I am soft hearted and would like to believe all people are born good, but life and facts have proven me wrong. So I turn to experts, as in the case of a physical injury. I would like to believe we are all born with perfect bodies and in perfect health, but the facts prove me wrong.

As I have noted above, the experts say there are varying degrees of sociopaths, despite love, nurturing, and direction. We read of children who kill because they wanted to see what it was like. It becomes impossible for me to believe this is only a result of upbringing. Some of born without souls - that much is clear to me.

I also believe I must accept and believe in imperfection, so I can live this life. Otherwise I am doomed like CA to keep trying and trying without success to fit a round peg into a square hole. Her quote, "a mother gives a daughter chance after chance".... It is what it is. Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

You quoted Hare.. not "experts"- they don't all agree.

I was raised by a borderline mother who made a choice to marry a dx'd ASPD I could read every book in the library, talk to every shrink in the land but I know that had she held him accountable for his behaviors instead of enabling him and becoming co-dependant he'd have made very different choices at least half of the time. Like the time he decided he was gonna rob his place of work.. had she called the cops when she found out about it instead of just hoping he wouldn't do it and leaving it in his [in]capable hands the robbery could have been avoided and he'd have been held accountable. It sure would have stopped him from going ahead and breaking into someones boat a month later. I know for a fact that when I was 15 and got arrested for the first time, had she not come and yelled at the police for arresting her child and yelled at her child (the person who did wrong) and actually punished me for it, I'd have been a bit afraid of getting myself into the same type of situation again. Instead I found out that I could do whatever I wanted and get away with it.. that is not a good signal to give your children- we can't allow bad behavior to go unpunished because some expert says it's unavoidable. Especially when we are only assuming the person is a psychopth to begin with (as most here assume Casey is cuz she's got psychopathic traits).

So ignore it and just let 'em ruin lives..their genes made 'em do it. It seems to me the worst of the terrible tragedies have had red flags way before the terrible tragedy happens and if someone had only done something it could have been prevented. Ignore the warning signs, enable the dangerous person, give them no consequenses to their behavior, encourage them to lie and steal and take advantage of others-yup, somethings gonna happen and will continue to happen but the person doing the ignoring holds some of the blame. "Chance after chance" to Cindy cearly meant giving until she had nothing left to give, doing nothing but creating excuses or ignoring completely each and every time she caught her dear daughter stealing and lying... Regardless of a persons genetic inheritance, we all have the ability to make choices and we should all be held accountable for those choices. IMO Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

 

[OneLostGrl]

We are really talking about two very separate issues here.

But before I comment about enablers - how do we know ICA kept Caylee because "her mother told her to". I know of no such thing, have read no information that allows me to believe that is true. I've read comments by several relatives who claim this, but that is not enough for me to believe it actually is true. ICA's history and actions tell me she does nothing unless she wants to - in that moment. We do know ICA doesn't even consider the consequences of decisions.

Certainly with my own history as an enabler, it wasn't about the fear of abandonment at all. It was about my own lack of faith in my ability to mother as well as I should have. It was about "is this what it is going to take" ? If I do this for you, will you finally be a happy adult, which is what I want for you? The degree of happiness in their own lives was what the indicator was for me to judge myself as having done a "good" job as a parent. Through it all, the question of whether or not my child loved or approved of me or not wasn't even part of the quotation.

As soon as I cut the ties between my child's success or failure, and my own worth, telling myself I had done the best I could do and it was now up to them, was I finally able to stop enabling.

Why would she consider the consequences of her decisions when she's never had any?! You don't worry about consequences if you have never held accountable... what's to fear, what's to worry about? Her mothers history and actions also show she does nothing unless she wants to- in the moment. This is clearly learned behavior.

 

[OneLostGrl]

You are not alone. We see this everyday with young parents. Buying way too many toys, have to have the latest and greatest at all costs because our little pumpkins want it. When my children were small it was, "I want them to have what I did not." And there they are on Christmas morning climbing in the empty packing boxes playing trains. lol. We all get sucked into the advertising frenze of you have to have this. When I think of myself as a child, and though I did not have a lot of toys, I had favorites plus there were not a lot of toys available at that time. Tea sets, dolls, stuffies. So I had to use my imagination. Educational toys are fine but give a kid an empty box, paints and see what they do with it. It's a car, it's a playhouse, it's a train. Endless possibilities. I remember once being in the car with a blanket on the ground and put all my animals and dolls in the back seat my imaginary car (the blanket) and drove to the beach for lunch.

Now put this into everyday life and this may be why we have so may people with problems. They don't have the tools to cope. We all want to protect our children but at some point they have to learn to not depend on us and figure things out themselves, gain their independence and freedom and feel good about it. KC has no creative imagination she just takes situations from her life and spins them into a lie. jmo

There is nothing wrong with helping them out when they are little but there has to come a time where we let 'em go, let them become their own people.. you are so right! They don't even have to learn how to lie or sneak properly (not that there is anything proper about lying or sneaking but it's part of life, it's something kids learn) because their parents help them, lie and sneak for them. Casey's lies were all see-through.. the people who were suppposed to be teaching her right from wrong simply chose to look the other way.

 

[logicalgirl]

You quoted Hare.. not "experts"- they don't all agree.. but he believes what you believe so that's good. I was raised by a borderline mother who made a choice to marry a dx'd ASPD I could read every book in the library, talk to every shrink in the land but I know that had she held him accountable for his behaviors instead of enabling him and becoming co-dependant he'd have made very different choices at least half of the time. Like the time he decided he was gonna rob his place of work.. had she called the cops when she found out about it instead of just hoping he wouldn't do it and leaving it in his [in]capable hands the robbery could have been avoided and he'd have been held accountable. It sure would have stopped him from going ahead and breaking into someones boat a month later. I know for a fact that when I was 15 and got arrested for the first time, had she not come and yelled at the police for arresting her child and yelled at her child (the person who did wrong) and actually punished me for it, I'd have been a bit afraid of getting myself into the same type of situation again. Instead I found out that I could do whatever I wanted and get away with it.. that is not a good signal to give your children- we can't allow bad behavior to go unpunished because some expert says it's unavoidable. Especially when we are only assuming the person is a psychopth to begin with (as most here assume Casey is cuz she's got psychopathic traits).

So ignore it and just let 'em ruin lives..their genes made 'em do it. It seems to me the worst of the terrible tragedies have had red flags way before the terrible tragedy happens and if someone had only done something it could have been prevented. Ignore the warning signs, enable the dangerous person, give them no consequenses to their behavior, encourage them to lie and steal and take advantage of others-yup, somethings gonna happen and will continue to happen but the person doing the ignoring holds some of the blame. "Chance after chance" to Cindy cearly meant giving until she had nothing left to give, doing nothing but creating excuses or ignoring completely each and every time she caught her dear daughter stealing and lying... Regardless of a persons genetic inheritance, we all have the ability to make choices and we should all be held accountable for those choices. IMO Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

I think you are taking what I am saying "way out of context". I am speaking of sociopaths, and my own experience of enabling, which are two very separate things.

On point, those experts who actually diagnose and work with sociopaths do agree teaching them boundaries only further educates them into a higher level of manipulation.

And with some children, I believe they must feel the consequences of society to understand their behavior is unacceptable in this society, whether it be a jail term, or the loss of a credit card. Some children despite whatever boundaries put by their parents, must experience loss for themselves to learn what they need to know. If we all simply learned from the mistakes of others, and from society's rules, then we wouldn't make any mistakes ourselves, would we?

Yes, I believe children need boundaries and discipline, and in particular - must learn consequences, by experiencing them. In small doses as young children, and etc. through their teenage years, but if they still act out - what then? Parents are not all wise invincible beings - we don't become parents and boing - all kinds of knowledge appears. We fight our way through it, talking to educators, and doctors and reading information - and we make mistakes. But the time comes when our children are truly on their own in the world and must accept the consequences for their actions.

And back to sociopaths for an instant, which is a whole different division for any other mental diagnosis. The sociopath will learn boundaries, fly under the radar and manipulate their way through life, or they end up in our prisons. They don't appear to mature into fine upstanding citizens.

 

[logicalgirl]

You quoted Hare.. not "experts"- they don't all agree.

I was raised by a borderline mother who made a choice to marry a dx'd ASPD I could read every book in the library, talk to every shrink in the land but I know that had she held him accountable for his behaviors instead of enabling him and becoming co-dependant he'd have made very different choices at least half of the time. Like the time he decided he was gonna rob his place of work.. had she called the cops when she found out about it instead of just hoping he wouldn't do it and leaving it in his [in]capable hands the robbery could have been avoided and he'd have been held accountable. It sure would have stopped him from going ahead and breaking into someones boat a month later. I know for a fact that when I was 15 and got arrested for the first time, had she not come and yelled at the police for arresting her child and yelled at her child (the person who did wrong) and actually punished me for it, I'd have been a bit afraid of getting myself into the same type of situation again. Instead I found out that I could do whatever I wanted and get away with it.. that is not a good signal to give your children- we can't allow bad behavior to go unpunished because some expert says it's unavoidable. Especially when we are only assuming the person is a psychopth to begin with (as most here assume Casey is cuz she's got psychopathic traits).

So ignore it and just let 'em ruin lives..their genes made 'em do it. It seems to me the worst of the terrible tragedies have had red flags way before the terrible tragedy happens and if someone had only done something it could have been prevented. Ignore the warning signs, enable the dangerous person, give them no consequenses to their behavior, encourage them to lie and steal and take advantage of others-yup, somethings gonna happen and will continue to happen but the person doing the ignoring holds some of the blame. "Chance after chance" to Cindy cearly meant giving until she had nothing left to give, doing nothing but creating excuses or ignoring completely each and every time she caught her dear daughter stealing and lying... Regardless of a persons genetic inheritance, we all have the ability to make choices and we should all be held accountable for those choices. IMO Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

Hare's name was the only name I quoted. I actually quoted the works of 15 experts, but did not think this was the place for a psychiatric bibliography.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think you are taking what I am saying "way out of context". I am speaking of sociopaths, and my own experience of enabling, which are two very separate things.

On point, those experts who actually diagnose and work with sociopaths do agree teaching them boundaries only further educates them into a higher level of manipulation.

And with some children, I believe they must feel the consequences of society to understand their behavior is unacceptable in this society, whether it be a jail term, or the loss of a credit card. Some children despite whatever boundaries put by their parents, must experience loss for themselves to learn what they need to know. If we all simply learned from the mistakes of others, and from society's rules, then we wouldn't make any mistakes ourselves, would we?

Yes, I believe children need boundaries and discipline, and in particular - must learn consequences, by experiencing them. In small doses as young children, and etc. through their teenage years, but if they still act out - what then? Parents are not all wise invincible beings - we don't become parents and boing - all kinds of knowledge appears. We fight our way through it, talking to educators, and doctors and reading information - and we make mistakes. But the time comes when our children are truly on their own in the world and must accept the consequences for their actions.

And back to sociopaths for an instant, which is a whole different division for any other mental diagnosis. The sociopath will learn boundaries, fly under the radar and manipulate their way through life, or they end up in our prisons. They don't appear to mature into fine upstanding citizens.

But as parents we must try- regardless. It is our job.


http://www.psychpage.com/learning/library/person/erikson.html

 

[logicalgirl]

Why would she consider the consequences of her decisions when she's never had any?! You don't worry about consequences if you have never held accountable... what's to fear, what's to worry about? Her mothers history and actions also show she does nothing unless she wants to- in the moment. This is clearly learned behavior.

What ICA actually learned was to take a different course of action when discovered and held accountable. When one action was discovered, she manipulated her way into another. We don't know CA never held ICA accountable though do we? What we do see is CA is unable to hold ICA accountable - every move she checks, ICA countermoves. CA cut off her money, tried to cut off her unfettered freedom, and ultimately was ready to throw her out of the house. ICA countered by saying I'll show you consequences and killed Caylee.

We assume CA never held ICA accountable throughout her life. We do not know that as fact. I don't like what I see of CA's parenting skills - but I don't believe it was ever possible hold ICA accountable or have her face consequences. She is a sociopath IMO and if so will not be held accountable for any actions in her mind. Ever.

To me CA's neat as a pin house and obsessive tidying and cleaning is a very clear indicator of just how chaotic, disruptive and out of control life in that household was with ICA. Not controlling - out of her control. All IMO.

And I note that although I had a bi-polar mother, she did not raise me. I had in fact thirteen different sets of "parents" from the years five to seventeen. And it is true I have a detached, hyper-observant and somewhat emotionally removed view of family dynamics, because I am not "hooked into" any particular pattern of systemic family behavior.

 

[logicalgirl]

Those that enable are just as disturbed as the sociopaths they enable. And even more frustrating to be around. At least sociopaths are charming when they want something. My experience with enablers is that they are strong willed go-getters that have the tact of bull-dozers.

I know an elderly couple that kept on lending their sociopath son money for grandiose schemes until they went bankrupt and the farm that had been in the family for generations ended up sold at a sheriff's auction. But, still the couple defended their thieving son and went to all of their friends to try to get money for their son's defense. The son shot himself on the day he was supposed to turn himself in. The elderly father died soon after that. The elderly mother lives with her DIL (my aunt) and is every bit as strong and untruthful in her defense of her son as Cindy Anthony.

The other enabler that I know in real life is my father-in-law. His son, my brother-in-law, has never, ever, suffered a single consequence for ANYTHING bad he has done because my father-in-law buys his way out. My brother-in-law is over 50 years old and last week my father-in-law gave $12K to my BIL's victim to keep the victim from going to authorities. My father-in-law pretends to be dumb and says he believes everything my brother-in-law says.

The enablers I know have things in common with Cindy:

They don't steal, nor would they.

They lie.

They are highly organized in their own lives. Cindy's house kept her house neat as a pin...something not easy to do when have the worries of a deathly ill father, marital woes, a thieving husband and daughter, a full-time job and a toddler with thousands of toys to strew.

They are goal oriented and high achievers. The enablers I know and Cindy Anthony all finished college. They did outstandingly well at work and had stable, even exemplary, work histories.

They are strong people (you might say dominating control-freaks).

They are perfectionists.

They go weak at the knees and cave at the thought of their spoiled child being upset. My 50+ aged brother-in-law still throws tantrums and I've never seen my father-in-law do anything back except cringe and wheedle.
​

I can look at the enablers and see how the spoiled-rotten sociopaths I know came about. But, I am having a huge problem seeing how the enablers that are so successful in so many other parts of their lives can be so obsessive about their little sociopaths?

I do disagree with all who say Cindy did not love Casey and Caylee. My father-in-law is a brave war hero who has and would again sacrifice his life for others. I've seen the tears and grief over what his son is. Cindy looks equally defeated. But, my father-in-law, despite swearing every time he is going to harden his heart, can't stop enabling. He is like a gerbil running uselessly on his wheel.

Can I suggest "guilt"? Guilt they failed in their own eyes as a parent, and guilt they somehow contributed through the gene pool to have brought this imperfect being into the world who appears to be unable to succeed in this world? May I also suggest "unable to accept failure"? If they keep enabling, then their little sociopaths will be successful, and they as parents won't have to admit to themselves and the world they have indeed failed as parents.
At least in their own eyes, they are guilty of unforgivable sin of failure.

 

[Jolynna]

Can I suggest "guilt"? Guilt they failed in their own eyes as a parent, and guilt they somehow contributed through the gene pool to have brought this imperfect being into the world who appears to be unable to succeed in this world? May I also suggest "unable to accept failure"? If they keep enabling, then their little sociopaths will be successful, and they as parents won't have to admit to themselves and the world they have indeed failed as parents.
At least in their own eyes, they are guilty of unforgivable sin of failure.

I definitely see guilt and trying to pull his little sociopath up as motivators for my father-in-law's enabling.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

^ Denial and shame play a large roll too.

My sister and I know a girl from our childhood who we were both besties with at different times, I shared a house with her in the early '90s as a student and awakened to the fact that she is a sociopath after having to live with her crazymaking ways, there was only one explanation and once I saw through her it was as clear as day, so I cut ties completely without notice, and without explanation.

Naturally I warned my sis, but for the past near 20 years my sister has suffered repeated humiliations through her friendship with this girl. I have explained to her over and over that is is just a game, that it is deliberate, and that my sisters humiliation and shame is the desired outcome of the manipulations and that it is just one big triumphant joke to the sociopath each time she is successful.

This advice goes nowhere, each time I piece it together for my little sis and she understands and says 'yes, it's true OMG' and she stays away for a couple of months, and each time I get a phone call down the track to say 'well we had a talk, I told her how I felt and I think we made a mistake, she actually.....[insert crazymaking excuse here].

My sister just doesn't want to admit it, she doesn't want to admit that 30 years of friendship with someone who is vivacious, fun, charismatic and scholarly has all been one great big sick game of one-upmanship based on a narcissistic need. To admit that would mean to also admit that she has been duped, that she has been foolish, and that she should have listened to me (LOL). I'll keep on keeping a very close watch, but there is little I can do in regards to protecting her.

I am sure it is near impossible to believe that your own child is playing sick games with your head if you are in fact the parent, and to also admit that your little charmer has caused deliberate damage to others, and will continue to do so throughout their lives and there is in fact no hope for change.

No excuse however for the Anthony's own deplorable behavior. They may not be able to control Casey, but they can damned well control themselves, and they sure as s*** should have done more to protect precious Caylee.

 

[Jolynna]

You quoted Hare.. not "experts"- they don't all agree.

I was raised by a borderline mother who made a choice to marry a dx'd ASPD I could read every book in the library, talk to every shrink in the land but I know that had she held him accountable for his behaviors instead of enabling him and becoming co-dependant he'd have made very different choices at least half of the time. Like the time he decided he was gonna rob his place of work.. had she called the cops when she found out about it instead of just hoping he wouldn't do it and leaving it in his [in]capable hands the robbery could have been avoided and he'd have been held accountable. It sure would have stopped him from going ahead and breaking into someones boat a month later. I know for a fact that when I was 15 and got arrested for the first time, had she not come and yelled at the police for arresting her child and yelled at her child (the person who did wrong) and actually punished me for it, I'd have been a bit afraid of getting myself into the same type of situation again. Instead I found out that I could do whatever I wanted and get away with it.. that is not a good signal to give your children- we can't allow bad behavior to go unpunished because some expert says it's unavoidable. Especially when we are only assuming the person is a psychopth to begin with (as most here assume Casey is cuz she's got psychopathic traits).

So ignore it and just let 'em ruin lives..their genes made 'em do it. It seems to me the worst of the terrible tragedies have had red flags way before the terrible tragedy happens and if someone had only done something it could have been prevented. Ignore the warning signs, enable the dangerous person, give them no consequenses to their behavior, encourage them to lie and steal and take advantage of others-yup, somethings gonna happen and will continue to happen but the person doing the ignoring holds some of the blame. "Chance after chance" to Cindy cearly meant giving until she had nothing left to give, doing nothing but creating excuses or ignoring completely each and every time she caught her dear daughter stealing and lying... Regardless of a persons genetic inheritance, we all have the ability to make choices and we should all be held accountable for those choices. IMO Believing otherwise has shown us what terrible tragedies have happened and will keep happening.

BBM

But, OLG, it was your brother's decision to rob his place of work.

Same with my brother-in-law. He wasn't so cowed and lacking in confidence from being enabled that he couldn't figure out how to fudge ledgers and cover his thefts. He just wasn't good enough to fool an auditor.

My brother-in-law is responsible for his choices. I think my father-in-law is so disgusting for feeling sorry for my brother-in-law and giving in to his tears and pleas for money that I was too mad to sleep last night.

But, my brother-in-law is over 50 years old. He is a big boy. My father-in-law didn't do the crime.

Same with Casey. Figuring out how to route bank numbers to pay her phone bill and then going from one of Cindy's accounts to another shows that Casey was able to accomplish what she deemed important to accomplish.

Casey is a grown woman. She had a car. She had a phone. She had clothes to wear to work. Casey was able to get out of the house 3 to 4 nights a week to see Ricardo. Maybe she should have gotten a job waiting tables during her evenings the way Amy did? She could have worked as one of the shot girls at Fusian and actually earned money instead of just hanging out.

Casey isn't and wasn't a browbeaten shrinking violet afraid to make a move on her own.

Casey had enough confidence in herself to barge in on Tony and his roommates and stay, she managed shot girls, she was able to bull***** Cindy and to keep her at bay for 31 days, she was able to weasel the use of Tony's car for a week, to weasel into Amy's car for a week...it takes balls to push into people's houses and "borrow" their cars. Watch Casey at the hearings, she's not worriedly looking to her attorneys for approval...she's not intimidated because she's in a courtroom in front of a judge and on trial for her life. Nope, she thinks she is her attorney's equal.

Casey's and my brother-in-law's decisions to use their creative talents into stealing instead of something more productive were choices, made by them. Lee was raised by the same parents as Cindy. He makes it on his own. He also has a solid work history. My husband was raised by the same parent as his brother. He's been pretty successful at his chosen career and is the most honest human I have ever met.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Respectfully as far as I know the only one being sued is KC. The A's are not included in that lawsuit. But the A's never said is was not the ZG and CA was speaking for her daughter to the news media when she repeated what KC told her that KC had never been shown ZG's picture. And since ZG was the only ZG to be at the apartments at that time police were obligated to investigate her. Still not a problem until CA went before the media. The police were doing their job. KC and KC alone is responsible for what has happened with ZG because now we know there was no ZG. The A's have done more damage to their daughter by blaming everyone except the person who was responsible for the safety of their granddaughter.

Police had a big responsibility in that they had to try and look at the evidence they had which pointed more and more towards the mother than any other person. ZG had been cleared almost immediately. What happened afterwards was not the fault of police but that of a frantic grandmother with a way too overactive imagination. Easy to see the "apple/tree" thing here. jmo

Oh, I thought they were all part of the same hand - :crazy: lol!
There are so many weird coincidences running through this case, the Zenaida who sued is just one more I guess. I forgot or wasn't aware that any of the A's pointed a finger directly at the ZG who visited SG.

The police would have to investigate the SG ZG after seeing her name on the visitor's list for sure. It was the media that found out and ran with the uncanny info though. That was so long ago that it's hard to remember who said what when and I didn't remember that CA had been verbal regarding THAT Zenaida. I totally agree that the A's try to place blame on anyone other than KC with no regard for the evidence or the truth.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Bold is mine.

Where do you think she learned that behavior?! she wasn't born acting like that- she was taught to act like that! Look at her mother! Cindy should have "let" her? It was not Cindy decsion to make!

This reminded me that I watched the cutest movie yesterday. It was funny and silly with serious undertones about two families coming together because their son and daughter were planning to marry. It was Christmastime and the girl's family who was Jewish came to visit the boy's family who was Christian. At first all these conflicts cropped up but, because both families were good at heart, they ended up coming to terms with each other and united.

At the end pf the movie, the mother of the boy said to her son something like, 'I'm afraid if my children move away it means I did something wrong, I failed.' The young man replied, 'Mom, you did everything right. You raised a son who can stand on his own two feet who will come home to see you because he misses you.' IMO that's what we should want, children who grow up and are able to function in the world, who try to fulfill their own needs without guilt from their parents but still know they have are a family behind them.