Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[sumbunny]

Because I go back and forth as to why some people do "evil" deeds and some do not-I can understand everyone's point of view about Casey and Cindy. Nature vs. nurture, psychopath, sociopath, personality disorder, narcissist, just plain evil, etc.

I understand what it is like to live with crazy making people and they are the reason I really want to understand this type of behavior. I think I was drawn to this case because the Anthony family behavior reminds me so much of my own family.

I feel like the more it is discussed the more confused I get because everyone makes sense. It seems Casey and those like her must be born with some kind of issue that caused her to find it more difficult to...? And, Cindy did not just get as crazy as she is since Caylee went missing, how could being born of Cindy raised by Cindy, not have an effect?

Yet, I have to agree that many people have it much worse than what Casey had(even with the Cindy factor)and they rise above. And, if someone hurt me in a terrible way-hearing that they were abused as a child would not make me think it was okay or easier to understand why they hurt me. I tend to think if you have been hurt badly by someone else, either physically or emotionally you then even more so never wish to hurt someone else in that way. But, it seems those who hurt the most must be the most hurt?

I agree with the statement that not everyone is as strong as others. Some people are not born with the energy it takes to overcome the dark that is inside them and done to them.

I play with the idea that people like Casey do feel strong emotions, maybe even stronger than you or I...it is just they are all for herself.

Here is where we have to discuss souls. That is what I think is the missing link(if you will)in the nurture vs. nature debate. I believe the factors that determine a person's make up are-body mind and spirit. It takes these three to create the person you see before you. The problem is there is controversy in speaking of the etheral because of its connection to religion. But since this is the psych thread we will all just chalk my talk up to my imagination. lol. :crazy:

For me it is not about religion. Its just about your soul. And a soul is pure love. Everyone has one but not everyone uses it...or is advanced enough to utilize it. I guess if we take this too far we will say the person did their deed because they were an "unadvanced soul" but that still wouldn't take away their responsibility for the deed-in my book it makes them more responsible.

Here's the rub: I think people like Casey and Cindy are souls who are not advanced. They are not connected to a higher source, so their every thought is of the material world. Evil spelled backward is life and I think that is what "evil" really is, life backward. For as much havoc these people visit upon their victims, I believe we witness the havoc that is inside of them. A person like Casey is all pure emotion, pure ego...when she felt hurt or betrayed(or her ego felt that way)she used her pure ego to alleviate her pain. From the perspective of a higher energy, these people exist in hell.

Sometimes, I think they are probably the most needy pathetic people on earth and like dangerous hurt animals(not to disparage the animals: first human beings are animals and second most animals are more advanced than many human beings) they lash out and innocent people get hurt in the process. What is a sociopath? What is a psychopath? Someone said they are each their own unique monster, maybe I said that but either way I agree. If we are all immortal souls on an endless journey(and that is the only comfort I find when thinking about babies like Caylee, she cannot have her chances for life taken by another for long)and we go on then it is possible that people like Casey have been making poor choices for much longer than we have known her...ahem.

Karma is the universal law of cause and effect. If you choose the red ball you didn't choose the black ball. Our souls are supposed to be the sum total of all our choices and experiences(at any given time), that is also our "karma." I do see karma as kind of impersonal as to its workings but I also believe there is a very personal energy at work behind all that-and it works on a now moment basis so that when any soul is ready to "turn around" it is never too late, however it can be too late in a given lifetime.

Many souls(especially in the previous generations)did not find a way to overcome their issues before the end of each lifetime and for someone like Casey, who took things this far, it can be said that for some there is no hope in this lifetime.

Part of this discussion, I think, is about free will. I believe in free will, I was shocked to discover that not everyone believes it exists. I'm not talking about you or me but in an official scholarly way. The ancient Greeks had this argument, it is argued by the religious, etc. I say that if I do not have free will then I can not be held accountable for believing in free will... :waitasec:

Casey and Cindy had and have free will, imho. The problem is, they are making their free will decisions from a faulty source. They make their decisions from their egos and not from their souls/hearts or even minds. Even a non passionate type soul can use their mind power and avoid such evil acts. Human beings, as the animal- have the capacity to kill. And, for many different reasons. I think Casey made the decision to kill Caylee of her own free(but damaged)will. If she really wrote in her diary what she wrote after she killed Caylee, we can see she is aware of her free will. That it was a choice she made. Although, she would also say she felt she had no other choice.

Sometimes we have to die to see what those other choices might have been. In my super duper I know nothing more than anyone else does, opinion.

I agree that we do need to understand this type of human behavior and we need to understand all forms of abuse. All abuse must stop. But, for that to happen is a very complicated process-I have the advice but no answers. I know discussions such as the ones we have here, with people so willing to be open and share is a beginning. Thank you from my soul to everyone who shares their experiences, it matters. It will matter to future generations. Contrary to what it seems, things are better for children and women/men in the world than it has been for thousands of years.

:twocents:

I take it you've read the journey of souls as well then?

 

[lauriej]

Evil spelled backward is life and I think that is what "evil" really is, life backward.

..not being picky, and i appreciated the entire post------but that would be "live".

 

[logicalgirl]

My nephew was diagnosed with an anti-social personality disorder (a sociopath) NOT just because he is a liar and thief. The stuff he writes on his myspace about how he is going to rape and dismember (graphic dismembering details) his mother and I also contributed to the diagnosis.

Casey killed her daughter. It probably was not done in a kind way. Taping over somebody's mouth is personal.

I have cried many a time with my nephew. I took him in despite his myspace postings about me, despite the stealing from everybody and his history as a liar because I felt sorry for him because of his parents. I took him to the best psychiatrist in my area, PLUS a life skills therapist, plus joined a group for parents of young people with problems.

ALL of the "experts" I consulted about my nephews problem said that the last thing my nephew needed was for me and my husband to hold our nephew LESS accountable because of his dysfunctional upbringing.

You, yourself, say that Cindy should have made Casey accountable.

Why should society do less?

It is well past time for Casey to pay up and to be held responsible for her actions.

Almost EVERYONE in prison for a violent crime is from a dysfunctional home. That doesn't make whatever they did less horrific.

How to even describe your honor and courage?? Don't think I can. Blessings.

I guess what I keep objecting to on this thread is how much of what has happened has been laid at Cindy's feet. Make no mistake, I have no love or admiration for how Cindy has conducted herself through what must be a completely heartbreaking situation plus being subjected to a life of sound bites and extreme criticism for her every move.

But I do object to the conjecture that Cindy never held ICA accountable for her entire life. We have one sound bite from a family affair when Cindy chose not to explain ICA's pregnancy at a family function, and we do see her being supportive of her daughter during what for Cindy must been difficult - knowing how being a young unwed mother in this world comes with a laundry list of difficulties.

And we have seen Cindy support ICA at home with Caylee, despite ICA clearly taking advantage of her by lying, and stealing,not only from her but from her parents. And I agree Cindy gave her chance after chance (as Cindy herself describes it) but we only know this was true during Caylee's life. And I believe this was because of Caylee, not ICA.

What we don't know, and I see posters making huge leaps of conjecture about is that Cindy treated ICA the same way throughout her whole childhood. We don't know Cindy taught ICA how to lie, we don't know she allowed every behavior, we are only guessing. We do know ICA attended school and lied to her mother about graduating. But we are only guessing about and pre-judging whether nor not Cindy held her accountable. We just don't know yet.

And we hear the arguments about how Cindy should have kicked ICA out of her home and kept Caylee. Just not possible. There is no way she could have proven ICA an unfit mother - the courts go to extreme lengths to keep mother and child united - and in court case after court case, grandparents have no rights.

So I have no problem with criticizing Cindy since Caylee death - even taking into consideration her inability to accept that Caylee was truly gone from her life and this life - she's still behaved terribly. Yes, definitely.

However the blame for Caylee lies with ICA - completely.

 

[Jolynna]

logicalgirl,

I agree with you. George and Cindy would never have purposefully harmed a hair on Caylee's head. George and Cindy didn't maliciously plan Caylee's demise.

Casey did.

 

[claudicici]

logical girl,to me it just seems so obvious that Cindy needed that emeshed relationship with ICA.She wanted to be the victim in this,she did not mind the stealing,the lying,the not graduating,the pregnancy....just like she needed from George to make all these mistakes,so she could continue to be the victim and the hero in all of this.
"I am not denying "nuture" has a definite effect on how we view ourselves in this world. But there is a point in time where we come to a spot in time where we must view ourselves a separate beings, separate from the conditions we were raised in and separate from the parents who raised. We do have the power to be whoever we want to be. It is very easy to look back and point fingers at the reasons why we've had "issues" in life. "
I think ICA did exactly that when she killed Caylee.In a sick and twisted and horrifying way she must have thought this was the only way out.

 

[RR0004]

Because I go back and forth as to why some people do "evil" deeds and some do not-I can understand everyone's point of view about Casey and Cindy. Nature vs. nurture, psychopath, sociopath, personality disorder, narcissist, just plain evil, etc.

I understand what it is like to live with crazy making people and they are the reason I really want to understand this type of behavior. I think I was drawn to this case because the Anthony family behavior reminds me so much of my own family.

I feel like the more it is discussed the more confused I get because everyone makes sense. It seems Casey and those like her must be born with some kind of issue that caused her to find it more difficult to...? And, Cindy did not just get as crazy as she is since Caylee went missing, how could being born of Cindy raised by Cindy, not have an effect?

Yet, I have to agree that many people have it much worse than what Casey had(even with the Cindy factor)and they rise above. And, if someone hurt me in a terrible way-hearing that they were abused as a child would not make me think it was okay or easier to understand why they hurt me. I tend to think if you have been hurt badly by someone else, either physically or emotionally you then even more so never wish to hurt someone else in that way. But, it seems those who hurt the most must be the most hurt?

I agree with the statement that not everyone is as strong as others. Some people are not born with the energy it takes to overcome the dark that is inside them and done to them.

I play with the idea that people like Casey do feel strong emotions, maybe even stronger than you or I...it is just they are all for herself.

Here is where we have to discuss souls. That is what I think is the missing link(if you will)in the nurture vs. nature debate. I believe the factors that determine a person's make up are-body mind and spirit. It takes these three to create the person you see before you. The problem is there is controversy in speaking of the etheral because of its connection to religion. But since this is the psych thread we will all just chalk my talk up to my imagination. lol. :crazy:

For me it is not about religion. Its just about your soul. And a soul is pure love. Everyone has one but not everyone uses it...or is advanced enough to utilize it. I guess if we take this too far we will say the person did their deed because they were an "unadvanced soul" but that still wouldn't take away their responsibility for the deed-in my book it makes them more responsible.

Here's the rub: I think people like Casey and Cindy are souls who are not advanced. They are not connected to a higher source, so their every thought is of the material world. Evil spelled backward is life and I think that is what "evil" really is, life backward. For as much havoc these people visit upon their victims, I believe we witness the havoc that is inside of them. A person like Casey is all pure emotion, pure ego...when she felt hurt or betrayed(or her ego felt that way)she used her pure ego to alleviate her pain. From the perspective of a higher energy, these people exist in hell.

Sometimes, I think they are probably the most needy pathetic people on earth and like dangerous hurt animals(not to disparage the animals: first human beings are animals and second most animals are more advanced than many human beings) they lash out and innocent people get hurt in the process. What is a sociopath? What is a psychopath? Someone said they are each their own unique monster, maybe I said that but either way I agree. If we are all immortal souls on an endless journey(and that is the only comfort I find when thinking about babies like Caylee, she cannot have her chances for life taken by another for long)and we go on then it is possible that people like Casey have been making poor choices for much longer than we have known her...ahem.

Karma is the universal law of cause and effect. If you choose the red ball you didn't choose the black ball. Our souls are supposed to be the sum total of all our choices and experiences(at any given time), that is also our "karma." I do see karma as kind of impersonal as to its workings but I also believe there is a very personal energy at work behind all that-and it works on a now moment basis so that when any soul is ready to "turn around" it is never too late, however it can be too late in a given lifetime.

Many souls(especially in the previous generations)did not find a way to overcome their issues before the end of each lifetime and for someone like Casey, who took things this far, it can be said that for some there is no hope in this lifetime.

Part of this discussion, I think, is about free will. I believe in free will, I was shocked to discover that not everyone believes it exists. I'm not talking about you or me but in an official scholarly way. The ancient Greeks had this argument, it is argued by the religious, etc. I say that if I do not have free will then I can not be held accountable for believing in free will... :waitasec:

Casey and Cindy had and have free will, imho. The problem is, they are making their free will decisions from a faulty source. They make their decisions from their egos and not from their souls/hearts or even minds. Even a non passionate type soul can use their mind power and avoid such evil acts. Human beings, as the animal- have the capacity to kill. And, for many different reasons. I think Casey made the decision to kill Caylee of her own free(but damaged)will. If she really wrote in her diary what she wrote after she killed Caylee, we can see she is aware of her free will. That it was a choice she made. Although, she would also say she felt she had no other choice.

Sometimes we have to die to see what those other choices might have been. In my super duper I know nothing more than anyone else does, opinion.

I agree that we do need to understand this type of human behavior and we need to understand all forms of abuse. All abuse must stop. But, for that to happen is a very complicated process-I have the advice but no answers. I know discussions such as the ones we have here, with people so willing to be open and share is a beginning. Thank you from my soul to everyone who shares their experiences, it matters. It will matter to future generations. Contrary to what it seems, things are better for children and women/men in the world than it has been for thousands of years.

:twocents:

And you, dear Chiquita, have one beautiful soul.

Thank you for this wonderful post.

 

[RR0004]

It's seems as if the families were competitive instead of being open and honest with each other. Cindy didn't reach out for their comfort or help, she was defensive and probably ashamed (even though I don't think she held on to that feeling long thus her defensiveness). Then she went into cover up mode. I wonder whose standards CA was trying to live up to? She seemed to be honest with her mom about some things and I believe she stopped shy because she was guarding her mom's feelings and trying not to trouble her too much. But CA didn't hide everything from her mom as we know from SP's letters to her sister. Maybe CA was so downtrodden from feeling less than. Less than what she ever imagined her life would look like at age fifty. At fifty, you do tend to reflect on what has happened so far and may feel you don't have the time or energy to make up for what is lacking.

A lot of peeps don't blab their dirty laundry though. They figure it's nobody elses business. When it gets as serious as a small child who is missing, that's going too far regarding keeping things to yourself. I can't understand that at all.

Oh, I do think Casey's "tumor" was the subject of much conversation...especially between RP and his mom. I find him very protective of her (Shirley) and it probably irked him to no end that Cindy wouldn't fess up. It really doesn't surprise me that he called her on it at the wedding when he could see with his own eyes how ridiculous her denial was. Yes, it was nobody's business...but jeesh...a little reality here. The entire family plays really bizarre games with each other IMO.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'd like to make a couple of points here just to clarify.

First, I hope it wasn't to me your comments of unless you raised by a personality disordered parent was specifically directed at me. Because if you were, that is laughable. Big laughable.

I guess I could take the next three pages of this thread describing my family structure and the absolute and tragic havoc it has created on my siblings, and myself. The past IS the past, we can't change it. But I made a conscious choice to unhook that particular boxcar from this train I'm driving, and I only use those past key points of routes not to travel only.

I am not denying "nuture" has a definite effect on how we view ourselves in this world. But there is a point in time where we come to a spot in time where we must view ourselves a separate beings, separate from the conditions we were raised in and separate from the parents who raised. We do have the power to be whoever we want to be. It is very easy to look back and point fingers at the reasons why we've had "issues" in life.

I was recently in deep conversation with a good friend of mine who was bewailing his inability to have a long term relationship on his father who declared he was gay and left the home of his mother and his children. My response was - "Are you freaking kidding me???? You are forty-seven years old!" What is your excuse for acting like a seven year old?? Get a grip!

And your last sentence "understand how to help people in this world" - isn't that just what psychologists and clinicians who devote their lives to this work are trying to do? Many sociopaths come from loving caring homes. Yes, we should protect ourselves by shutting away the 13 year old who picks up a gun and kills three people. And sure we should try to treat that "child". And more definitely yes, it would be helpful if we know about this particularly deviant type of personality disorder who kills without remorse to protect society from them. You can feel free to "understand them", I want them stopped and those like ICA,who have already broken the law, punished.

We will never be able to stop them unless we can understand them.

 

[OneLostGrl]

My nephew was diagnosed with an anti-social personality disorder (a sociopath) NOT just because he is a liar and thief. The stuff he writes on his myspace about how he is going to rape and dismember (graphic dismembering details) his mother and I also contributed to the diagnosis.

Casey killed her daughter. It probably was not done in a kind way. Taping over somebody's mouth is personal.

I have cried many a time with my nephew. I took him in despite his myspace postings about me, despite the stealing from everybody and his history as a liar because I felt sorry for him because of his parents. I took him to the best psychiatrist in my area, PLUS a life skills therapist, plus joined a group for parents of young people with problems.

ALL of the "experts" I consulted about my nephews problem said that the last thing my nephew needed was for me and my husband to hold our nephew LESS accountable because of his dysfunctional upbringing.

You, yourself, say that Cindy should have made Casey accountable.

Why should society do less?

It is well past time for Casey to pay up and to be held responsible for her actions.

Almost EVERYONE in prison for a violent crime is from a dysfunctional home. That doesn't make whatever they did less horrific.

I'm guessing you are speaking to me? My step father was also diagnosed.

I hold no one less accountable and believe everyone (again, even the mentally ill) should be held accountable for their actions- everyone! I also think people who choose to murder should be taken out of society, they have lost their right to live in the free world. But that doesn't mean there aren't reasons people do things and if we ever want to see it stop we must understand why and how and find a way to stop it. I don't like the girl but I can understand why she ended up the way she is, I'm sorry not everyone can relate but I can (not proud of it but it's the truth). My point is that some people CAN'T overcome their enabling co-dependent parents and spend their lives making self destructive choices (and worse),feeling worthless and angry at everyone they come into contact with. We must figure out how we can help those people before they do horrible things.. but if they do choose to do horrible things they should be held accountable. Nowhere have I ever said Casey shouldn't be held accountable or that I don't think she should be punished... she should be (if she did this) to the fullest extent. She should have been held accountable long before now- I have said that I can't even count how many times so I don't know where you got the idea that I don't think she should be held accountable.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Before I get into my post about Cindy's behavior prior to June 16th, 2008... I do have to say that I know that Cindy loved Caylee... I just don't think Cindy realized that she loved Caylee in a very wrong way. I'm not willing to say that Casey loved Caylee... but I find great truth in what Shirley said about this... she believed that Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee... That had to be some serious hatred to be able to viciously murder that baby.

IMO, both of these women treated Caylee as an object. A possession. Something little kids fight over, tug back and forth over, and what happens? It's broken in half... which is what I believe was happening to Caylee. That poor baby was probably so torn on what to do. I believe she loved Casey with all her little heart... just as much as she loved Cindy.

My problem with Cindy starts with her having that paper drawn up to make sure Caylee's father had no rights to her. To me, Cindy had NO RIGHT to make that decision. I don't know who Caylee's father is. I do believe that Casey and Cindy know who Caylee's father is. I most certainly believe LE knows who Caylee's father is. Now, I don't know if I believe Casey when she says he was going to come to Caylee's 2nd Birthday (and happens to die in a car accident right before her birthday), but if it were true, then Caylee's father would have known about her... and according to Casey (I know) he was making an effort to be at her Birthday Party... which makes what Cindy did even worse. Not only was she trying to manipulate the situation, but she was denying Caylee a father... which is wrong on so many levels. Even if what Casey said was all a lie... I believe the father had the right to make the decision about whether he wanted to be a part of Caylee's life or not? I can't help but think if Caylee had other relatives (father, grandparents, aunts, uncles) outside of the Anthony house, maybe this could have been prevented? But Cindy wanted to be selfish. She wanted full control over Caylee's life. Which, imo, started at the Hospital the day she was born...

Because for some reason, I don't think that Caylee being handed over to Cindy was an accident. Yes, I believe that Cindy insisted on Caylee being handed to her. Unless something drastic has happened, the baby should never have been handed over to anyone, but Casey! Heck, even when a mother has to have a C-section, the nurse takes the baby (after wrapping it in a blanket) and holds the baby to mom's face, giving them that mommy/baby bonding moment that no mother should ever be denied... then the nurse hands the baby to dad to hold. I don't think a nurse would be that stupid to hand Caylee to Cindy unless Cindy was all up in her face. There's way too much hatred on Casey's part for this to have been an innocent accident, IMO.

I just have a huge problem with Cindy's overall need to control everyone around her. She's a very manipulative, vicious, malicious woman in her own right. I do think that she had a hand in Casey never bonding with Caylee... Most mothers, when their daughters have their first born, take their daughters by the hand and assure them that everything is going to be okay. First time mothers (all of them) are nervous... they are scared... they think they're going to break the baby... drop the baby... etc... Mom's (Grandma's) job is to take the daughters hand and gently show them how to bathe the baby, hold the baby, feed the baby, burp the baby, swaddle the baby, etc... For some reason, I don't think Cindy did this with Casey... I think Cindy found Casey to be doing everything wrong... and just swooped right in and took over from the beginning. Control! Control! Control!

I'm sure we're going to be hearing a lot about this family during trial... I think we're going to hear A LOT more during the penalty phase. I'm actually scared to hear anything else... they're scary enough as it is...

I know it is so cliche, but Caylee never had a chance. Poor little thing.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Because I go back and forth as to why some people do "evil" deeds and some do not-I can understand everyone's point of view about Casey and Cindy. Nature vs. nurture, psychopath, sociopath, personality disorder, narcissist, just plain evil, etc.

I understand what it is like to live with crazy making people and they are the reason I really want to understand this type of behavior. I think I was drawn to this case because the Anthony family behavior reminds me so much of my own family.

I feel like the more it is discussed the more confused I get because everyone makes sense. It seems Casey and those like her must be born with some kind of issue that caused her to find it more difficult to...? And, Cindy did not just get as crazy as she is since Caylee went missing, how could being born of Cindy raised by Cindy, not have an effect?

Yet, I have to agree that many people have it much worse than what Casey had(even with the Cindy factor)and they rise above. And, if someone hurt me in a terrible way-hearing that they were abused as a child would not make me think it was okay or easier to understand why they hurt me. I tend to think if you have been hurt badly by someone else, either physically or emotionally you then even more so never wish to hurt someone else in that way. But, it seems those who hurt the most must be the most hurt?

I agree with the statement that not everyone is as strong as others. Some people are not born with the energy it takes to overcome the dark that is inside them and done to them.

I play with the idea that people like Casey do feel strong emotions, maybe even stronger than you or I...it is just they are all for herself.

Here is where we have to discuss souls. That is what I think is the missing link(if you will)in the nurture vs. nature debate. I believe the factors that determine a person's make up are-body mind and spirit. It takes these three to create the person you see before you. The problem is there is controversy in speaking of the etheral because of its connection to religion. But since this is the psych thread we will all just chalk my talk up to my imagination. lol. :crazy:

For me it is not about religion. Its just about your soul. And a soul is pure love. Everyone has one but not everyone uses it...or is advanced enough to utilize it. I guess if we take this too far we will say the person did their deed because they were an "unadvanced soul" but that still wouldn't take away their responsibility for the deed-in my book it makes them more responsible.

Here's the rub: I think people like Casey and Cindy are souls who are not advanced. They are not connected to a higher source, so their every thought is of the material world. Evil spelled backward is life and I think that is what "evil" really is, life backward. For as much havoc these people visit upon their victims, I believe we witness the havoc that is inside of them. A person like Casey is all pure emotion, pure ego...when she felt hurt or betrayed(or her ego felt that way)she used her pure ego to alleviate her pain. From the perspective of a higher energy, these people exist in hell.

Sometimes, I think they are probably the most needy pathetic people on earth and like dangerous hurt animals(not to disparage the animals: first human beings are animals and second most animals are more advanced than many human beings) they lash out and innocent people get hurt in the process. What is a sociopath? What is a psychopath? Someone said they are each their own unique monster, maybe I said that but either way I agree. If we are all immortal souls on an endless journey(and that is the only comfort I find when thinking about babies like Caylee, she cannot have her chances for life taken by another for long)and we go on then it is possible that people like Casey have been making poor choices for much longer than we have known her...ahem.

Karma is the universal law of cause and effect. If you choose the red ball you didn't choose the black ball. Our souls are supposed to be the sum total of all our choices and experiences(at any given time), that is also our "karma." I do see karma as kind of impersonal as to its workings but I also believe there is a very personal energy at work behind all that-and it works on a now moment basis so that when any soul is ready to "turn around" it is never too late, however it can be too late in a given lifetime.

Many souls(especially in the previous generations)did not find a way to overcome their issues before the end of each lifetime and for someone like Casey, who took things this far, it can be said that for some there is no hope in this lifetime.

Part of this discussion, I think, is about free will. I believe in free will, I was shocked to discover that not everyone believes it exists. I'm not talking about you or me but in an official scholarly way. The ancient Greeks had this argument, it is argued by the religious, etc. I say that if I do not have free will then I can not be held accountable for believing in free will... :waitasec:

Casey and Cindy had and have free will, imho. The problem is, they are making their free will decisions from a faulty source. They make their decisions from their egos and not from their souls/hearts or even minds. Even a non passionate type soul can use their mind power and avoid such evil acts. Human beings, as the animal- have the capacity to kill. And, for many different reasons. I think Casey made the decision to kill Caylee of her own free(but damaged)will. If she really wrote in her diary what she wrote after she killed Caylee, we can see she is aware of her free will. That it was a choice she made. Although, she would also say she felt she had no other choice.

Sometimes we have to die to see what those other choices might have been. In my super duper I know nothing more than anyone else does, opinion.

I agree that we do need to understand this type of human behavior and we need to understand all forms of abuse. All abuse must stop. But, for that to happen is a very complicated process-I have the advice but no answers. I know discussions such as the ones we have here, with people so willing to be open and share is a beginning. Thank you from my soul to everyone who shares their experiences, it matters. It will matter to future generations. Contrary to what it seems, things are better for children and women/men in the world than it has been for thousands of years.

:twocents:

great post!

 

[claudicici]

ITA once again,olg....
I think there are some of us that believe there's only black and white and those of us that are not afraid of grey areas.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'd like to make a couple of points here just to clarify.

First, I hope it wasn't to me your comments of unless you raised by a personality disordered parent was specifically directed at me. Because if you were, that is laughable. Big laughable.

I guess I could take the next three pages of this thread describing my family structure and the absolute and tragic havoc it has created on my siblings, and myself. The past IS the past, we can't change it. But I made a conscious choice to unhook that particular boxcar from this train I'm driving, and I only use those past key points of routes not to travel only.

I am not denying "nuture" has a definite effect on how we view ourselves in this world. But there is a point in time where we come to a spot in time where we must view ourselves a separate beings, separate from the conditions we were raised in and separate from the parents who raised. We do have the power to be whoever we want to be. It is very easy to look back and point fingers at the reasons why we've had "issues" in life.

I was recently in deep conversation with a good friend of mine who was bewailing his inability to have a long term relationship on his father who declared he was gay and left the home of his mother and his children. My response was - "Are you freaking kidding me???? You are forty-seven years old!" What is your excuse for acting like a seven year old?? Get a grip!

And your last sentence "understand how to help people in this world" - isn't that just what psychologists and clinicians who devote their lives to this work are trying to do? Many sociopaths come from loving caring homes. Yes, we should protect ourselves by shutting away the 13 year old who picks up a gun and kills three people. And sure we should try to treat that "child". And more definitely yes, it would be helpful if we know about this particularly deviant type of personality disorder who kills without remorse to protect society from them. You can feel free to "understand them", I want them stopped and those like ICA,who have already broken the law, punished.

Not everyone is as strong as you.. many of us fail, some for just a short while, some for most of our lives, some our entire lives. Overcoming is not so easy for every person.

 

[LambChop]

I think CA was playing "in your face" games at RP's wedding with her family. Obviously CA was fully aware that KC was pregnant. Bringing KC to the wedding, parading her around and denying her condition was CA's way of getting some attention. And she did, didn't she. I think contraversy is a sick game they like to play. If they were trying to hide the fact that KC was pregnant they would have left her at home saying she had to work.

It would have been interesting if we could have seen the pictures of Caylee's ultrasound up close to see if it were actually taken at 7 months. And didn't her boss say KC was moved to a sit down position in HR due to her condition? jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

*snipped* from LolaMoon:

My problem with Cindy starts with her having that paper drawn up to make sure Caylee's father had no rights to her. To me, Cindy had NO RIGHT to make that decision. I don't know who Caylee's father is. I do believe that Casey and Cindy know who Caylee's father is. I most certainly believe LE knows who Caylee's father is. Now, I don't know if I believe Casey when she says he was going to come to Caylee's 2nd Birthday (and happens to die in a car accident right before her birthday), but if it were true, then Caylee's father would have known about her... and according to Casey (I know) he was making an effort to be at her Birthday Party... which makes what Cindy did even worse. Not only was she trying to manipulate the situation, but she was denying Caylee a father... which is wrong on so many levels. Even if what Casey said was all a lie... I believe the father had the right to make the decision about whether he wanted to be a part of Caylee's life or not? I can't help but think if Caylee had other relatives (father, grandparents, aunts, uncles) outside of the Anthony house, maybe this could have been prevented? But Cindy wanted to be selfish. She wanted full control over Caylee's life. Which, imo, started at the Hospital the day she was born...

Cindy may or may not have actually done that, but it would legally not be worth the paper it was written on. Only a court judgement can remove parental rights from either a father or a mother, and it cannot be done because someone requests it - there must be cause - and it is very difficult to do. Cindy's "paper" meant nothing.

 

[logicalgirl]

Not everyone is as strong as you.. many of us fail, some for just a short while, some for most of our lives, some our entire lives. Overcoming is not so easy for every person.

No Doubt - I agree. And a good start however is to wave our personal strengths as identity banners rather than our failures. All IMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

We will never be able to stop them unless we can understand them.

I guess that for me depends on who you mean by "we". I can study a sociopath or any other type of personality disorder, and have opinions, but that won't help society at large, because my views will be tainted by my personal beliefs and lack objectivity.

Objectivity and conclusions or tentative conclusions will come from professionals who are educated and spend years in clinical trials and treatment before making decisions.

I'm pretty clear that I don't have the time or intelligence or training to be helpful in knowing how to move from understanding to protection, which for me is the whole point. What good is knowledge without action to implement?

 

[logicalgirl]

ITA once again,olg....
I think there are some of us that believe there's only black and white and those of us that are not afraid of grey areas.

LOL, of course because from grey areas come black and white. And it's difficult to study or discuss grey areas and speculate or make judgments if there is no basis of truth in those speculations, don't you think?

For me, speculation without fact or logic is simply gossip, and gossip can quickly become malicious and damaging, and as we are all aware, gossip snowballs, and gets lodged out there as fact, whether it is true or not.

 

[RR0004]

ITA once again,olg....
I think there are some of us that believe there's only black and white and those of us that are not afraid of grey areas.

We are all outsiders looking in at this family...black, white, gray...none of us really knows...we just don't. That's not fear IMO...it's just speculation based on our own experiences. But, when it comes down to it...it's still speculation, regardless. I've had gads of personal experience that could lead me to opine in many colored areas, but ultimately my brain can't wrap itself around any possible scenarios that leads someone to murdering a child. I couldn't from Day 1...and I still can't.

 

[Ada]

I think this applies, as far as dysfunctional parent/child households and the difficulty some have in breaking out of it.

I had a friend, some years ago. We were both in our late 30s and she had a 7 year old child. This friend and her sisters were sexually abused by their father during most of their childhood, up until they eventually came of age and left home, and, her mother was aware. She had terrible stories to tell, but, I won't share them here. You've all heard them.

Anyway, her parents asked for her to send her daughter to them to stay for a 2 week vacation. My friend was making plans to send her daughter to the grandparents for the visit, but, was feeling uncomfortable about it.

I guess I kind of lost my patience with her. I finally asked 'why would you send your child to spend 2 weeks with the man who abused you?! He will abuse your daughter! Have you lost your mind?!"

Her response was "I have to, he's my father"

My response to her was "your responsibilities as a mother far outweigh your responsibilities as a daughter"

She mulled this over and in the end decided to have her parents come to visit them for a week so she could supervise. Not an ideal outcome IMO (I would have told them to go to hell and they are never spending time with my child, but, that's just me).

Anyway, this dysfunction can be so ingrained that some cannot break free.

Sad...