Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[Solace]

I think this applies, as far as dysfunctional parent/child households and the difficulty some have in breaking out of it.

I had a friend, some years ago. We were both in our late 30s and she had a 7 year old child. This friend and her sisters were sexually abused by their father during most of their childhood, up until they eventually came of age and left home, and, her mother was aware. She had terrible stories to tell, but, I won't share them here. You've all heard them.

Anyway, her parents asked for her to send her daughter to them to stay for a 2 week vacation. My friend was making plans to send her daughter to the grandparents for the visit, but, was feeling uncomfortable about it.

I guess I kind of lost my patience with her. I finally asked 'why would you send your child to spend 2 weeks with the man who abused you?! He will abuse your daughter! Have you lost your mind?!"

Her response was "I have to, he's my father"

My response to her was "your responsibilities as a mother far outweigh your responsibilities as a daughter"

She mulled this over and in the end decided to have her parents come to visit them for a week so she could supervise. Not an ideal outcome IMO (I would have told them to go to hell and they are never spending time with my child, but, that's just me).

Anyway, this dysfunction can be so ingrained that some cannot break free.

Sad...

No reflection on you Ada, but this is pathetic.

 

[Ada]

No reflection on you Ada, but this is pathetic.

I agree!

Oddly, in every other way she was a strong, intelligent, independent woman. She was raising her child alone, working hard, providing a very nice life for herself and the kid. This situation absolutely floored me because she, otherwise, seemed so normal and in charge of her life.

Crazy stuff.

 

[logicalgirl]

I agree!

Oddly, in every other way she was a strong, intelligent, independent woman. She was raising her child alone, working hard, providing a very nice life for herself and the kid. This situation absolutely floored me because she, otherwise, seemed so normal and in charge of her life.

Crazy stuff.

Wow - that amazes me! So, she is strong and intelligent and independent, but do we know if she ever went to counseling re getting her head and heart clear about the sexual abuse? No, I'm guessing? And additionally, when she became a mother also did not go for help on how deal with this as a parent?

Poor girl. I guess we have to know we have a problem before we seek help.

 

[joypath]

We are all outsiders looking in at this family...black, white, gray...none of us really knows...we just don't. That's not fear IMO...it's just speculation based on our own experiences. But, when it comes down to it...it's still speculation, regardless. I've had gads of personal experience that could lead me to opine in many colored areas, but ultimately my brain can't wrap itself around any possible scenarios that leads someone to murdering a child. I couldn't from Day 1...and I still can't.

RR0004: This quote rather nicely sums up my entire career in forensic pathology! :rocker: Just change the "murdering a child" to committing ANY homicide and I'm sailing across the snow banks on a 60 MPH wind gust with you!:seeya:

 

[Ada]

Wow - that amazes me! So, she is strong and intelligent and independent, but do we know if she ever went to counseling re getting her head and heart clear about the sexual abuse? No, I'm guessing? And additionally, when she became a mother also did not go for help on how deal with this as a parent?

Poor girl. I guess we have to know we have a problem before we seek help.

She did receive counseling, and, was actually still actively receiving it during this whole thing. I don't know if she brought this situation up with her therapist though. I look at my mother, who is a troubled old lady due to her own chaotic childhood. She goes to therapy until the therapist starts touching on difficult subjects, then she quits. Some things are too hard for some people.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Oh, I do think Casey's "tumor" was the subject of much conversation...especially between RP and his mom. I find him very protective of her (Shirley) and it probably irked him to no end that Cindy wouldn't fess up. It really doesn't surprise me that he called her on it at the wedding when he could see with his own eyes how ridiculous her denial was. Yes, it was nobody's business...but jeesh...a little reality here. The entire family plays really bizarre games with each other IMO.

BBM ~ Yes, in a way, that's what I was saying too. CA did not want to admit to her brother that there was a 'problem' with KC. Whereas, if I hadn't seen my bro for a long time and he made an observation like the one Rick made, I wouldn't become defensive and go into denial because my knee jerk reaction wouldn't be to hide from my bro the truth of what was going on. I might say, 'I know something is not right, let's talk about it after the wedding.' In other words, CA didn't respond to her brother in a way that reflected that they were on the same team. CA denied Rick's observation, acted defensive and tried to avoid the truth. Maybe Rick's voice sounded accusatory versus concerned. I don't know but I notice CA didn't address his observation as if Rick was her equal or her loving brother. I'm not sure I've expressed myself clearly. There may have been bad blood between them to begin with.

My last line about people hiding their dirty laundry was a general observation - not directly connected to the circumstances of the A's. I meant that a lot of people keep their probs close to their chests. What the A's have going on, are not normal problems imo though.

 

[logicalgirl]

Not everyone is as strong as you.. many of us fail, some for just a short while, some for most of our lives, some our entire lives. Overcoming is not so easy for every person.

Oh I am no "Great Shakes" but I have survived - I have survived and occasionally I even flourish. And I am proud of that, as small a thing as it may seem to be.

 

[Aedrys]

Oh I am no "Great Shakes" but I have survived - I have survived and occasionally I even flourish. And I am proud of that, as small a thing as it may seem to be.

I was just thinking about survival, me being a survivor myself, and realized something. I think part of what makes me so mad about this situation is that Casey gave up on her own child. Casey didn't give Caylee the chance to survive and thrive. It's like if Casey couldn't survive her mother, then Caylee was doomed not to survive her either. Casey forgot that Caylee is not just another mini - Casey, but a human, a full person different from Casey. And this goes back generations - Cindy sees Casey as a mini - Cindy. It's why she can't fathom that Casey did this because Cindy couldn't have done it, so Casey, her mini - Cindy, couldn't have done it either. And Cindy even saw Caylee as a replacement Casey, the Casey she would raise right this time around. The whole problem here is these women saw their children as nothing but extensions of themselves instead of persons separate from themselves, able to have their own lives and be their own individual selves.

And for George and Lee, all three were someone molded into one female being that they had to deal with. I understand now why Lee didn't have a relationship with Caylee, and why George won't stand up for her. Can't stand up, can't care about Caylee separate from Cindy and Casey. It's either be on Cindy and Casey's side, or be against them in standing up for Caylee. They can't see those three women as three separate people. They've been trained to see them as one person, meaning Caylee is Casey, and Casey is Cindy. So Caylee is Cindy too. And since neither can stand up to Cindy, well there you go. Neither have or will ever stand up for poor Caylee.

No wonder Caylee never had a chance. She was just an appendage not needed anymore, not a real person. She was Casey, she was Cindy, not her own self separate from them. No wonder she was swept under the rug as if she were nothing. She really was nothing to these people, a non-entity. How depressing and sad is that?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

We will never be able to stop them unless we can understand them.

So true. A problem I see here too is that when one is little, a mom or a dad will not be able to share with the little person their own life experiences. They will behave at the level they are able to at the time.

For instance my mom, who basically raised herself, was just four days beyond age 22 when she had me. She was alone a lot when she grew up because her mother had to work and her father had flown the coop. My mom had insecurities because of not knowing the father and, as children are prone to do, thought it had something to do with her not being worthy of his love.

Therefore, although my mother was loving towards me, she seemed somewhat removed and anxious. Mind you, when you are six, you don't know what that is. Because she grew as I grew we began talking to one another at some point and the 'whys' began coming out and began to make sense to the both of us. I eventually reached an age where I could say to her, 'no wonder you felt abandoned - because you were.' Because we were open to truth and understanding and growth we were able to increase our understanding of how the trickle down behavior affects everybody. Both my mom and I, for what God had given us, should have had more self confidence and less sad reflection as younger women then we suffered and it stemmed from a childhood self blame thing my mom had going on. You can't give what you don't have. Even now, I will remind my mother that she had nothing to do with that man leaving her - she was two. She KNOWS that but needs to hear it still. What we do affects those we do it to. If and when we sherk our responsibilities, it affects somebody to some degree. My mom, in particular, is a very soft soul. She has the most sensitive heart I've ever known. She touches many people through her thoughtful, understanding gestures. She grieves for others' to an extent that sometimes I have to help snap her out from doing. I believe this is because she is aware of other peoples' pain and cares about it because she knows what invisible felt like back when she was a child. She grew through it for the good but it didn't change the fact that she was abandoned as a child.

Then there's cause and affect. If you want your child to learn how to handle money properly - do it yourself. If you DON'T want your child to get a DUI, don't drink and drive yourself. It's not foolproof, but it's a start. This is where my dad's strength came into play - he did his darndest to practice what he preached.

How can George say he did that?

 

[OneLostGrl]

I guess that for me depends on who you mean by "we". I can study a sociopath or any other type of personality disorder, and have opinions, but that won't help society at large, because my views will be tainted by my personal beliefs and lack objectivity.

Objectivity and conclusions or tentative conclusions will come from professionals who are educated and spend years in clinical trials and treatment before making decisions.

I'm pretty clear that I don't have the time or intelligence or training to be helpful in knowing how to move from understanding to protection, which for me is the whole point. What good is knowledge without action to implement?

What good is ignorance and believing everything you read? If people realize what enabling does to children they will hopefully be less likely to engage in it. We don't need to be doctors to create change- it starts at home. If one enabling co-dependent mother can learn something- that is a huge step toward change. It's just plain silly to think only a clinical trial or a medical professional can create change in the personality disordered.

 

[OneLostGrl]

No Doubt - I agree. And a good start however is to wave our personal strengths as identity banners rather than our failures. All IMO.

Some people don't realize they have any personal strengths.. that's the point!

 

[logicalgirl]

What good is ignorance and believing everything you read? If people realize what enabling does to children they will hopefully be less likely to engage in it. We don't need to be doctors to create change- it starts at home. If one enabling co-dependent mother can learn something- that is a huge step toward change. It's just plain silly to think only a clinical trial or a medical professional can create change in the personality disordered.

I am only going to say that is not what I said at all. Not at all.

 

[strawberry]

Let's all take a deeep breath....and remember it's all about Caylee.

 

[OneLostGrl]

*snipped* from LolaMoon:


Cindy may or may not have actually done that, but it would legally not be worth the paper it was written on. Only a court judgement can remove parental rights from either a father or a mother, and it cannot be done because someone requests it - there must be cause - and it is very difficult to do. Cindy's "paper" meant nothing.

But Cindy sure thought it did. And Cindy is the one who told the whole world about it so it's not speculation. The fact that she did it at all, legally binding or not, clearly shows her mind-set.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Oh I am no "Great Shakes" but I have survived - I have survived and occasionally I even flourish. And I am proud of that, as small a thing as it may seem to be.

It isn't small. It's huge and you should be proud that you overcame.

 

[drip~drop]

I think CA was playing "in your face" games at RP's wedding with her family. Obviously CA was fully aware that KC was pregnant. Bringing KC to the wedding, parading her around and denying her condition was CA's way of getting some attention. And she did, didn't she. I think contraversy is a sick game they like to play. If they were trying to hide the fact that KC was pregnant they would have left her at home saying she had to work.

It would have been interesting if we could have seen the pictures of Caylee's ultrasound up close to see if it were actually taken at 7 months. And didn't her boss say KC was moved to a sit down position in HR due to her condition? jmo

Or she didn't have to wear a dress that SCREAMED "I'm pregnant everybody!!" kwim?
moo:cow:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Or she didn't have to wear a dress that SCREAMED "I'm pregnant everybody!!" kwim?
moo:cow:

No kidding, it's like she wanted it to come out that day..

 

[OneLostGrl]

I was just thinking about survival, me being a survivor myself, and realized something. I think part of what makes me so mad about this situation is that Casey gave up on her own child. Casey didn't give Caylee the chance to survive and thrive. It's like if Casey couldn't survive her mother, then Caylee was doomed not to survive her either. Casey forgot that Caylee is not just another mini - Casey, but a human, a full person different from Casey. And this goes back generations - Cindy sees Casey as a mini - Cindy. It's why she can't fathom that Casey did this because Cindy couldn't have done it, so Casey, her mini - Cindy, couldn't have done it either. And Cindy even saw Caylee as a replacement Casey, the Casey she would raise right this time around. The whole problem here is these women saw their children as nothing but extensions of themselves instead of persons separate from themselves, able to have their own lives and be their own individual selves.

And for George and Lee, all three were someone molded into one female being that they had to deal with. I understand now why Lee didn't have a relationship with Caylee, and why George won't stand up for her. Can't stand up, can't care about Caylee separate from Cindy and Casey. It's either be on Cindy and Casey's side, or be against them in standing up for Caylee. They can't see those three women as three separate people. They've been trained to see them as one person, meaning Caylee is Casey, and Casey is Cindy. So Caylee is Cindy too. And since neither can stand up to Cindy, well there you go. Neither have or will ever stand up for poor Caylee.

No wonder Caylee never had a chance. She was just an appendage not needed anymore, not a real person. She was Casey, she was Cindy, not her own self separate from them. No wonder she was swept under the rug as if she were nothing. She really was nothing to these people, a non-entity. How depressing and sad is that?

great post.

Bold is mine-
Neither was Casey IMO. How easy it seems to be for Cindy to re-write Casey's life history to fit the niche she needs it to.

 

[LCoastMom]

Well, I agree with you on most points. Here's what the experts who focus on psychopaths agree on:

(I clipped the end of the article which is quite long)

Some researchers think that psychopathy is the result of some attachment or bonding difficulty as an infant. Dr. Hare has turned the idea around, after all his years digging into the background of psychopaths. He says:
In some children the very failure to bond is a symptom of psychopathy. It is likely that these children lack the capacity to bond readily, and that their lack of attachment is largely the result, not the cause, of psychopathy. [Hare]

In other words: they are born that way and you can't fix them.

To many people, the idea of a child psychopath is almost unthinkable. But the fact is, true psychopaths are born, not made. Oh, indeed, there is the psychopath that is "made," but they are generally different from the born psychopath in a number of ways.

One mother said: "We were never able to get close to her even as an infant. She was always trying to have her own way, whether by being sweet, or by having a tantrum. She can put on a sweet and contrite act…"

The fact is: childhood psychopathy is a stark reality, and failing to recognize it can lead to years of vain attempts to discover what is wrong with a child, and the parent blaming themselves.

Hare writes:
As the signs of social breakdown grow more insistent, we no longer have the luxury of ignoring the presence of psychopathy in certain children. Half a century ago Hervey Cleckley and Robert Lindner warned us that our failure to acknowledge the psychopaths among us had already triggered a social crisis. Today our social institutions - our schools, courts, mental health clinics - confront the crisis every day in a thousand ways, and the blindfold against the reality of psychopathy is still in place.[…]

The fact is, clinical research clearly demonstrates that psychopathy does not spring unannounced into existence in adulthood. The symptoms reveal themselves in early life. It seems to be true that parents of psychopaths KNOW something is dreadfully wrong even before the child starts school. Such children are stubbornly immune to socializing pressures. They are "different" from other children in inexplicable ways. They are more "difficult," or "willful," or aggressive, or hard to "relate to." They are difficult to get close to, cold and distant and self-sufficient.

I know a family who has more diagnosed "issues" than we could count. Young mom is bi-polar (her mother is also bi-polar). Young mom had her first DD at 16, then had 2 more - #2 DD is one of the most beautiful children I have ever seen - her nick name was "Angel-Face" and it absolutely fit, some of the time. This little girl has another side to her and when she was "in a mood" she physically looked different - I can't explain it as I've never seen it in a child before, but it reminds me of the Chameleon quality in some psychopaths.

This lil girl put her 2 yr old baby sister on a swing, then climbed the swing-set and pulled the chain off the hook. The baby put her teeth all the way thru her lip and needed stitches. (The baby was often the victim of her sister's "moods".)

She came to my house and punched DH where it hurts most, when he answered the door - then tried to do it again, the next time she saw him.

For these acts her mother said she didn't know what she was doing (or didn't realize what she was doing would cause harm) - I had a little talk with her after the DH punching incident and asked her, "What if I go up to your daddy and punch him there?" She replied, "No! that would hurt!" She knew darn good and well what she was doing and I told her mother so!

At 5 years old, she was suspended from kindergarten until she had a psych eval after hitting, kicking or biting 3 other children, all in the first week of school. One of the children had the misfortune of being the first one in line when the bell rang, he got kicked in the shins. Another child was picked by the teacher to answer a question - he got a bite that drew blood. The child who got punched was just in the wrong place, at the wrong time. (Just like the first 2!)

The psychiatrist told her parents she has all the signs of a serial killer in the making. Mom continued to blame everyone but the child, all her acting out was because she had been hurt by others. DH hurt her feelings by telling her I wasn't home; so the punches were his own fault - to mom's way of thinking.

When this child is older and ends up in trouble with the law - is it her fault because she is a bad seed or her mother's for refusing to make her take responsibility from the beginning? Or is it a combination of genetics and living in a family that is very dysfunctional and in some ways similar to the Anthony's?

ICA didn't become bad at 18 or 22. She had to have had some issues along the way - Were the A's in denial all those years of many misdeeds, while ICA robbed them blind? Were they in denial when she sat around the house, or hung out with various boys, instead of going to work? IIRC GA checked up on her "job" at the sporting goods store and found out she had never worked there - did CA say; "I don't know who to believe?" Like she did when GA tried to tell her about ICA's lies, while ICA told her a different story?

This is the MOTY, who only disciplined her daughter in the most loving way imaginable, ICA yelling and cursing at her mother, on more than one occasion - is the best daughter any father could have. According to ICA her brother violated her - yet her MySpace pictures identified him as, "The greatest brother ever!"

Here we are 2 1/2 yrs into this - Casey and Family Psych Profile #10 we try and try to make sense, of a senseless situation! So many of us have shared the cracks in our own families - some situations, were potentially (or actually) so much worse than ICA's - not a baby killer among us!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Let's all take a deeep breath....and remember it's all about Caylee.

True. Caylee didn't ask to be born, she didn't ask to be tossed to and fro among these people. If these adults that Caylee was assigned to had had any self awareness of their individual behavior and what their collective behaviors were doing to Caylee they may have been able to avoid what happened to Caylee (I'm still waiting until after the trial to name the verdict).

Caylee was pushed, pulled, possessed, cast aside, claimed, not claimed, over indulged, ignored, not mindfully considered regarding the identity of bio dad, psychologically abused, exposed to psychological abuse and activities a child shouldn't be exposed to (ie, sleeping in a bed with a full grown man who is basically a stranger), and ultimately neglected which led to her death or, as most people think, was outright killed by the person who should have protected her the most.

That said, all of our discussion is for the purpose of trying to figure out the circumstances surrounding Caylee's short life and make sense of them which I don't think we can ever do. Caylee represents every child whose parents are not cognitive of the impressions and results their behaviors make on their children.

Makes me take my own inventory and at least try to do better as no one is perfect but many are at least awake so-to-speak. If not, awaken!