Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[88mph]

Most of the data I've found does not differentiate between sedan and station wagon. This fact sheet shows 277,774 Holden Commodores VS's were produced in Australia in 1995.

Australia was not importing Commodores. They may have exported some. Assuming the car was distributed based on population, and 9.5% of Australia's total population lived in WA, then 26,400 Holden Commodore VS's were in the state.

What portion of those were station wagons? A quarter? A fifth? Any guesses? And then what portion of those were white?

If 20% were station wagons and 75% of the station wagons were white, then you're looking at about 4,000 vehicles.

http://tinyurl.com/hwjeyx2

Another way to futher trim that data would be to look at the date of manufacture.

In total 277,774 were made, but how many were made prior to the abduction of JR? I'd guess you could halve the amount.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Does anyone know, what was the kind of age range that you would normally expect in the Claremont venues? Bart?
I only went out in Claremont a few times, but people seemed to be about my age which was probably around 20.
would a 35 year old on his own look out of place?

Fri nights at Conti in the late 80s were 18-21. It was called Cagneys at that time. Then they open upstairs to cater to the older market (25+). And called it Conti. From memory mid 90s was still young people downstairs, older people upstairs.

would a 35yo look out of place? Yes if by self and geeky (i.e. LW). No if with group of freinds. Could get away with solo but would have to make acqaintences quite quickly which would be hard to do withou looks, confidence and charisma.

 

[JMC44]

A general article covering the murders, from 3 days ago (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/01/08/murder-perth-claremont_n_8936806.html). It mentions the possibility of someone from the SAS or armed forces being able to have committed these murders. It mentions that Campbell Barracks is right next to Claremont, and the Claremont is their local pub. Anyone have any info on this angle? The article also says, if I'm reading it correctly, that PW was 'caught sleeping in his car near the Claremont social district but, when cops questioned him, he told them that he was looking out for any girls to make sure they were safe'. This is suspicious.

On a side note, I don't believe they have DNA of the CSK.

 

[delbertGrady]

Fri nights at Conti in the late 80s were 18-21. It was called Cagneys at that time. Then they open upstairs to cater to the older market (25+). And called it Conti. From memory mid 90s was still young people downstairs, older people upstairs.

would a 35yo look out of place? Yes if by self and geeky (i.e. LW). No if with group of freinds. Could get away with solo but would have to make acqaintences quite quickly which would be hard to do withou looks, confidence and charisma.

It would have worked well for him to have confidence and charisma, and I think you may be right about him being on the periphery of social groups without truly a part of one (like a lot of people, myself included, otherwise someone might notice where he was, or wasn't)

 

[Parkie]

The csk will not be caught. He may have had family here but he might have nipped back to Italy. That is my opinion. He would have roamed around the Conti & Club Bay Spew.. no doubt. And also the OBH & Cott as well. Did he get a fug off wave re a money/land convo with some Irish girls at the OBH some years later. Just what I caught wind of..

 

[Bartholemeus]

there's a small discussion going on over at another forum regarding RZ

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...de_of_romuald_zak_parents_believe_he/.compact

in addition to his parent's page and the coronial inquest there's a lot of information about his death. Very sad.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/CICrimJust/2012/18.pdf

Did you recall reading anything about a penis enlargement?

 

[billywhizz]

A general article covering the murders, from 3 days ago (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/01/08/murder-perth-claremont_n_8936806.html). It mentions the possibility of someone from the SAS or armed forces being able to have committed these murders. It mentions that Campbell Barracks is right next to Claremont, and the Claremont is their local pub. Anyone have any info on this angle? The article also says, if I'm reading it correctly, that PW was 'caught sleeping in his car near the Claremont social district but, when cops questioned him, he told them that he was looking out for any girls to make sure they were safe'. This is suspicious.

On a side note, I don't believe they have DNA of the CSK.

Good find. Shame it sounds like it was written by one of the more mental forum members rather than a journalist though.

I find the part about the local politician sleeping in his car extremely suspicious too. Surely there would be about a a hundred things he could do to make Claremont safer rather than "sleeping" in his car near the edge of Claremont's social district. Be interesting to know what street it was and why he didn't alert police as to his plans if he really did want to help with surveillance. His friend is also listed as an 'employee' which I find quite odd. Was he receiving a wage?

 

[elastic]

If macro only had a partial DNA profile early in the case they would have concluded that their DNA profile was pretty much worthless. Finding a match with a partial profile is much more difficult than finding a match with a full profile. The fact that they had another profile to compare it with to conclude that the partial in fact matched another full DNA profile from another crime would have only at that point made it a certainty they had the killers DNA profile.

This may be why they never reported DNA early in the case, and also why they took so many DNA samples, hoping technology would one day be able to match a partial DNA profile from the CSK and to a possible POI. They obviously lucked out when they finally decided to test the partial DNA profile against other crimes committed in WA, high on their list would have been Karrakatta after an FBI agent suggested the crimes were linked at the beginning of the case. Lo and behold the partial DNA profile was a match for the full DNA karrakatta profile. They had the CSK DNA.

Brett Christian is convinced his facts are correct.

They may not have had DNA early in the case, but the WA Police now have DNA, how reliable it is that its from the purp who comitted the murders and that the partial DNA profile has not been taken from something used to bound the victim in both attacks, it could be the DNA from the Karrakatta rapist, left on an item or weapon used in the CSK murders and abductions. The karrakatta and CSK maybe friends or associates, with the same washingline or rope being used to this day in all the attacks, or something in the vehicle linking the former rapist. Or it is the CSks DNA

 

[elastic]

A general article covering the murders, from 3 days ago (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/01/08/murder-perth-claremont_n_8936806.html). It mentions the possibility of someone from the SAS or armed forces being able to have committed these murders. It mentions that Campbell Barracks is right next to Claremont, and the Claremont is their local pub. Anyone have any info on this angle? The article also says, if I'm reading it correctly, that PW was 'caught sleeping in his car near the Claremont social district but, when cops questioned him, he told them that he was looking out for any girls to make sure they were safe'. This is suspicious.

On a side note, I don't believe they have DNA of the CSK.

Interesting that a couple of earlier theorys and this one have been suggested in the media and dont appear to be very well investigated.

The junior Policeman who declares his innocence to the media is a very strange POI and is definitely worth consideration given what we know about the abductions and dump site distances.

Also this new theory drummed up by criminologists about possibly being from the Army. I think this has been suggested before, but nothing thoroughly investigated by any Police or Private investigator, publically.

It is very likely it could be a Policeman, Junior Policeman, Policemans son, or immatation Policeman. It seems this avenue of inquiry was shut down completly amd swiftly despite all the rumours around Perth it was a Policeman doing it, later those rumours became 'Taxi driver'

Someone from the army would be incredibly capable of carrying out this attack. Especially with a panel van or a station wagon.

Did anyone think that the reason the victims (or atleast one) were found to have been laid on the seat, implying back seat, laying down means possibly possitioned after strangulation to look like the victim was passed out from excessive drinking in case they were pulled over taking the victim home. Could the killer have checked their wallets and ID to create a story that the victim was their 'drunken, passed out' girlfriend incase they were pulled over.

If there was anu stabbing its likely to have happened post mortem, unless the victim survived the drive to the dump site

 

[J35]

Elastic, The Green River killer (Gary Ridgeway) stated that when he use to strangle his victims, he had to worry about incontinence and cleaning up the mess (I posted a link a few pages back from the prosecution file, extremely insightful into understanding one of the worst serial killers). I wonder if the CSK knew this and how he'd try to explain it to a copper etc.

 

[Deleted member 153673]

Did you recall reading anything about a penis enlargement?

I can't say I did bartholemeus. But I'm intrigued now. In what context? I do recall reading that he had been sexually assaulted prior to death but it was an opinion not in the coroners report (i think) I wonder if he was the victim of a revenge killing as a result of mistaken identity? If a concerned party believed he was involved in the murders somehow and took matters into their own hands. Or was RZ silenced by the CSK himself? Poor RZ

 

[Bartholemeus]

I can't say I did bartholemeus. But I'm intrigued now. In what context?

Papertrail mentioned it and you mentioned the FB page so i thought this is where it may have come from. I'm sure Papertrail has an article it was mentioned on so hopefully she will post it soon.

 

[Parkie]

What happened to Billywhizzs comment? I was ok by that.

 

[Elwood_1]

I keep mentally chewing on the military aspect. Irwin Barracks is straight across the railway line from Karrakatta Cemetery, is walking distance to the pubs, and is adjacent to the quite secluded Shenton Bushland. On Google maps there is what looks like a white station wagon parked at the security office on Stubbs, and on Street View there are white vans at the gate. In 1996 what is now the Stubbs main entrance was a little used wire mesh gate that from memory was usually unattended, as the main gate was further south in the area where the new residential subdivision is now. I think. Very quiet. You could come and go and no one would ever notice.

Campbell barracks is a short drive away, is walking distance from where Julie Cutlers car was found, and in between there and Claremont is Lake Claremont. If you were in a big hurry to dump a body late at night that would be a fairly dark and quiet place to leave it if you didn't want to do the Shenton Bushland thing from Irwin. Concealment in the reeds would be fairly simple for a soldier.

A funny thing about military bases is that there is usually very little movement at night, and when there is people don't often ask questions or approach others. The military also doesn't try too hard to cooperate with civilian police. The officers give it lip service, but the men see civilian police as the enemy, and are usually totally uncooperative without making it seem obvious. That was my personal experience, anyway.

As for the southern dump site, when I regularly traveled to the Rockingham/HMAS Stirling area from Claremont/Nedlands in 1996-99 I used the freeway and got off at Thomas Road, and went the back way through Baldivis. Straight past Millar Road. Why the freeway? The Fremantle traffic police made Cockburn, Rockingham, and Stock Roads a nightmare, and you had an excellent chance of getting pulled over or getting photographed by a Multanova. There was never a weekday daytime RBT on the Kwinana Freeway that I ever saw. Weekends at night there was often an RBT in Como, or the other site near South Street. You would have a real chance of getting pulled over at night on the freeway on the weekend. That makes me think that the body was transported and dumped during daylight, not at night. But where do you keep the victim concealed in the meantime (probably not in a station wagon), and who doesn't require you to account for the mileage for the trips to the dump sites if it is a pool car, or you are working in the area?

The Millar Road area is interesting. That was fairly hard to get to back then, and there wasn't much going on in the area. Dumping a body would have actually been quite risky, as it was a long drive from Claremont, and there would have been a risk of being surprised by horse riders. Especially on weekends, and early in the morning. That is an odd area for someone to be intimately acquainted with, as I always saw it as somewhere unpleasant to drive through on the way to somewhere better. It is also not far from where Gerard Ross was found. You would have to make quite an effort to drive to and scout that area, unless the killer just tossed the body and ran, but I believe the body was concealed (?), so he took his time at the site. Ballsy. Or was he in a commercial vehicle in broad daylight, ladders on the roof, and clipboard in hand. Puzzling. The area back then was a deserted hell hole of scrub and back roads that seemed to go no where. How would he even know how to get there..?

Pipidinny Road is on the way from Irwin/Campbell to the Lancelin Defence Training Area, and you would probably drive past it if driving to or from RAAF Pearce from Lancelin. The SAS trains at Pearce. They have a mock up airliner that they like to play with, and they like to jump out of planes.

A local military guy would also be known to appear and disappear from the pubs on a regular basis, but people probably wouldn't notice if he wasn't around for a while, or was on his own 'meeting someone'. He could be 'known', but without people really knowing much about him, and would have a perfect excuse not to say what he had been up to. In between attacks he would presumably want to stay right out of the area, and then move back in some time later.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

I keep mentally chewing on the military aspect. Irwin Barracks is straight across the railway line from Karrakatta Cemetery, is walking distance to the pubs, and is adjacent to the quite secluded Shenton Bushland. On Google maps there is what looks like a white station wagon parked at the security office on Stubbs, and on Street View there are white vans at the gate. In 1996 what is now the Stubbs main entrance was a little used wire mesh gate that from memory was usually unattended, as the main gate was further south in the area where the new residential subdivision is now. I think. Very quiet. You could come and go and no one would ever notice.

Campbell barracks is a short drive away, is walking distance from where Julie Cutlers car was found, and in between there and Claremont is Lake Claremont. If you were in a big hurry to dump a body late at night that would be a fairly dark and quiet place to leave it if you didn't want to do the Shenton Bushland thing from Irwin. Concealment in the reeds would be fairly simple for a soldier.

A funny thing about military bases is that there is usually very little movement at night, and when there is people don't often ask questions or approach others. The military also doesn't try too hard to cooperate with civilian police. The officers give it lip service, but the men see civilian police as the enemy, and are usually totally uncooperative without making it seem obvious. That was my personal experience, anyway.

As for the southern dump site, when I regularly traveled to the Rockingham/HMAS Stirling area from Claremont/Nedlands in 1996-99 I used the freeway and got off at Thomas Road, and went the back way through Baldivis. Straight past Millar Road. Why the freeway? The Fremantle traffic police made Cockburn, Rockingham, and Stock Roads a nightmare, and you had an excellent chance of getting pulled over or getting photographed by a Multanova. There was never a weekday daytime RBT on the Kwinana Freeway that I ever saw. Weekends at night there was often an RBT in Como, or the other site near South Street. You would have a real chance of getting pulled over at night on the freeway on the weekend. That makes me think that the body was transported and dumped during daylight, not at night. But where do you keep the victim concealed in the meantime (probably not in a station wagon), and who doesn't require you to account for the mileage for the trips to the dump sites if it is a pool car, or you are working in the area?

The Millar Road area is interesting. That was fairly hard to get to back then, and there wasn't much going on in the area. Dumping a body would have actually been quite risky, as it was a long drive from Claremont, and there would have been a risk of being surprised by horse riders. Especially on weekends, and early in the morning. That is an odd area for someone to be intimately acquainted with, as I always saw it as somewhere unpleasant to drive through on the way to somewhere better. It is also not far from where Gerard Ross was found. You would have to make quite an effort to drive to and scout that area, unless the killer just tossed the body and ran, but I believe the body was concealed (?), so he took his time at the site. Ballsy. Or was he in a commercial vehicle in broad daylight, ladders on the roof, and clipboard in hand. Puzzling. The area back then was a deserted hell hole of scrub and back roads that seemed to go no where. How would he even know how to get there..?

Pipidinny Road is on the way from Irwin/Campbell to the Lancelin Defence Training Area, and you would probably drive past it if driving to or from RAAF Pearce from Lancelin. The SAS trains at Pearce. They have a mock up airliner that they like to play with, and they like to jump out of planes.

A local military guy would also be known to appear and disappear from the pubs on a regular basis, but people probably wouldn't notice if he wasn't around for a while, or was on his own 'meeting someone'. He could be 'known', but without people really knowing much about him, and would have a perfect excuse not to say what he had been up to. In between attacks he would presumably want to stay right out of the area, and then move back in some time later.

Thanks Elwood. Army personnel would have very short haircuts wouldn't they? They'd be a little obvious at club venues. It would have to be attack by stealth?
I'm only assuming here.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If macro only had a partial DNA profile early in the case they would have concluded that their DNA profile was pretty much worthless. Finding a match with a partial profile is much more difficult than finding a match with a full profile. The fact that they had another profile to compare it with to conclude that the partial in fact matched another full DNA profile from another crime would have only at that point made it a certainty they had the killers DNA profile.

This may be why they never reported DNA early in the case, and also why they took so many DNA samples, hoping technology would one day be able to match a partial DNA profile from the CSK and to a possible POI. They obviously lucked out when they finally decided to test the partial DNA profile against other crimes committed in WA, high on their list would have been Karrakatta after an FBI agent suggested the crimes were linked at the beginning of the case. Lo and behold the partial DNA profile was a match for the full DNA karrakatta profile. They had the CSK DNA.

The chances are slim that if they had a partial they didn't compare against Karra dna.

I'd also assume a partial would be enough to rule some people out early on.

Brett Christian is convinced his facts are correct.

He'd say that if the whole thing was a police opp.

They may not have had DNA early in the case, but the WA Police now have DNA,

unconfirmed

 

[Bartholemeus]

Thanks Elwood. Army personnel would have very short haircuts wouldn't they?
They'd be a little obvious at club venues. It would have to be attack by stealth?
I'm only assuming here.

Army personel never socialised at Claremont night spots. These place are pretty much exclusively for ex private schoolers.

But the CSK didn't necessarily have to socialise there.

 

[Elwood_1]

Thanks Elwood. Army personnel would have very short haircuts wouldn't they? They'd be a little obvious at club venues. It would have to be attack by stealth?
I'm only assuming here.

Foot, SAS troopers are essentially exempt from normal military dress requirements, as they are frequently undercover when they are on jobs.

Some Army guys will push the haircut thing too. Especially if they are in out of the way jobs like Stores, or are Cooks, Drivers, etc., but Perth is pretty hot, and short haircuts were pretty common back then. A short haircut wouldn't make you stand out there.

I see Bart has suggested that military guys wouldn't drink in Claremont pubs. I will give you the big tip, they will drink anywhere, but they usually do it in small groups, and they don't advertise who they are. The Shenton Park Hotel used to be popular with the Army because they had strippers, but I don't know if that was still the case in 1996. The thing with military is if they announce who they are and some idiot picks a fight with them, they may get sympathetic treatment from the civilian police, but then they might receive military punishment, which can often be much more punitive and has career implications. What usually happens is some idiot decides to be a hero and take on a soldier, the soldier fills him in in self defense, and their career suffers.

I think the CSK was either 'known' locally, or is what the SAS call a 'grey man', who can move through the crowd unnoticed. Be him military, cop, whatever. The reason I say this was in third quarter 1996 I walked into Myers in Claremont to buy a gift for my wife. The girl behind the counter ignored me. Pointedly. Then a group of school girls came in, walked up to the counter and were immediately served by the same girl who had just been ignoring me. The school girls gave me death-stares. I didn't fit, and they had me spotted as a stranger. I left, and went elsewhere.

 

[Sutton]

Does anyone know when a poster is put in time out if there is any way to see how long it lasts?

 

[Deleted member 153673]

SAS guys used to drop into the claremont pcyc to do boxing. they would turn up for a week or two of training then vanish for months at a time and i only knew because the coach let it slip once "oh those sas blokes are back" or something similar. They looked like any other person out there. No special haircuts or tattoos or anything that set them apart other than they were much fitter than any of us. If you were at a club or bar there's no way you'd be able to tell them apart from anyone else by their appearance. The military background scenario is just as plausible as any. It must take a special type of character to be able to deal with death, blood etc and an sas or active duty soldier would have that, as would a cop. I wonder what kind of person would be able to plan and carry out something like this, but more so how they would cope with guilt. Is it possible to go back to work the next day or sit down to dinner with your family after having done things like that the night before? It says to me our man might have been a loner or someone with plenty of time to himself and a place where he could be alone to think about things and develop his fantasy or grudges, think about where he take them, dump them etc. I can see the logic of the blitzkrieg attack scenario given whats been said about how brutal the karrakatta attack was, but I just can't see a person being killed right there in a vehicle (unless its a van) then driven to a dump site on the same night just after death. There are too many problems with that scenario and too many ways to get caught. It seems like the actions of an impulse or disorganised killer which doesn't fit with the lack of evidence (that we know of)