CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #11

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So, that's all we should focus on?

Well, for that matter, why don't we discuss that she might have been taken by someone to Idaho and was forced to send those two texts, to make it sounds like she needed a break from life?

How about- she had her phone, purse, and just herself with the clothes on her back, as according to her brother, nothing else was missing. So, did she have plenty of cash and a place to go ahead of this journey she might be on, leaving family and friends up in the air as to where she is and if she's safe? Leaving her little girl without so much as a note goodbye, Mommy loves you and will return one day?

Did she borrow an RV secretly from a friend and decided to take a cross country trip?

She didn't appear to take a plane, Uber, Lyft, Taxi, bus, shuttle or one of her vehicles. She didn't have a motorcycle, right? Scooter? 10 speed bike?

No hotels have come forward to say she was a guest recently, no cottage renters. No apartment renters, no rooming homes, etc.

No mental hospitals have confirmed to LE that she is a patient and alive and well. No hospitals have contacted LE to tell them they have an accident victim that might be Kelsey.

How is she eating, drinking, surviving? Would it be safe to say that she's probably not using her ATM debit or charge cards the last 28 days, as there would be a trail? Do we have proof of a huge cash withdrawal before or on Thanksgiving?

To my knowledge, there's been no video of her anywhere in town that day or any other since Thanksgiving, other than Safeway. To my knowledge, no one besides PF has seen her on Thanksgiving or after.

How did she get to Idaho, where her phone pinged? If someone drove her, wouldn't they come forward to say that they gave her a ride and that she is fine?

No one reporting that she's tried to hitchhike for a ride. I haven't read anywhere that a trucker saw her and gave her a ride to Idaho.

Even if she borrowed a friend's truck or car and got into a car accident along the way, surely someone would have called LE by now?

What about Kelsey's aunt who said that Kelsey broke up with PF the day before Thanksgiving? If this was part of the reason why she left on her own, and it is very possible, why didn't she take the baby with her, in her own vehicle, and head to family? Or why didn't she at least follow up with her work and PF, that she was going to take another week or two off after the first week went by?

I am trying to think outside the box here, but I can't make any of this fit for some reason.

Yes, but everyone is entitled to an opinion as to what happened. There are lots of unanswered questions about how all the facts would fit if PF killed KB, like most have concluded. But we don't have any proof that PF left town between 11/22 and 11/25: nobody has come forward to claim that they saw him buying gas or food between Woodland Park and Gooding Idaho. Or that they expected to see him around town but couldn't find him for some reason.

So please........let's all show a little respect for people with different theories. We have very, very few facts. There is not a theory that is backed up by facts where all of those facts neatly fit into one certain picture. Okay?
 
Yeah. Tunnel vision is not good.

No. That's not the only evidence.

After two weeks with ALL the evidence - bank and credit card records, phone records, social media records, other internet records, dating apps if they exist, AIRBNB accounts, Uber or Lyft accounts, interviews with neighbors, friends, family ("Were you aware of plans of KB to come visit you in Soap Lake?" "Has KB ever taken off before? Talked about depression? Relationships? Problems with the baby? Dating? History of alcohol issues? Mental health? Any odd behavior lately?"), reviewing any and all surveillance recordings that they can find from markets, airports, bus and train stations, gas stations, truck stops, restaurants, hotels and motels, reviewing all tips no matter how insane, inquiring at any hospital, rehab or other institution in likely various states to determine whether KB is there, as they can do per HIPAA, and on and on and on, a multi-agency investigation with the resources and power that the FBI and CBI uniquely have, they've turned their focus obviously in one direction.

Do you disagree that LE has explored all possibilities with every bit of manpower and every last resource they have? Do you believe that multiple agencies have failed to do a thoroughly job, lacked probable cause (as determined by a court) to search PF's premises and vehicles, and developed unwarranted tunnel vision?

It's not one thing. It's multiple things.

Is it enough to arrest anyone? Clearly not yet. But it certainly is enough for me to use common sense to start eliminating some possibilities.

Please post links to that evidence because I can find nothing on the internet. There are no banking reports, phone records etc available that I can find. I don't see her friends lining up to talk about her. Where did you find video other than the grocery store video? I can find none of what you're saying. Please post links to it. Do you have links on anything the police have done and find? Those links would be appreciated as well. We should have a thread of nothing but police and evidence links! That would be very helpful. Do you have lots of individual links or is there a website with the evidence? This is exciting, there's actual evidence!
 
The experts who wrote the books I listed above estimate that 10% of the population does not have the capacity to feel empathy or remorse. Not sure why you think people find that comforting, for me it's completely terrifying, and it's totally evidence-based and backed up by people who've spent entire psychiatric and mental health research careers studying this stuff.

I snipped to focus on the part where you addressed something I specifically said. First, thank you for sharing your expertise. The subject is fascinating and I’m probably way out of my depth.

Now to correct something - I didn’t say people found comforting that a percentage of the population feels no empathy or remorse. What I said was that I think people might find it comforting to put these people who do monstrous things in a separate category, making them fundamentally different. By compartmentalizing evil behavior, we circle the wagons and feel oh so much better and safer because we are us and they are them. We won’t be hurt because we will use good judgement and stay away from them.
 
Secret rehab or mental health facility is a theory that has become pretty popular on various missing women's cases (I don't think I've seen that theory pop up in a missing man's case yet, interestingly).

I have never seen it borne out.

Simply, a rehab center would disclose the fact that the person is in their center, to LE, and the search and investigation would be over. LE would issue a statement: "The missing woman has been located and is safe and no further information will be released at this time due to privacy reasons. We greatly appreciate the public's assistance and concern in this matter."

Kelsey Berreth is not in a secret rehab or mental health facility as the FBI and CBI frantically search for her. IMO.

@Gitana - I never meant that she was there. I think it is the third time I am typing the same version. I did not say that Kelsey checked herself in a MH facility. I am merely wondering what explanation was provided to KB's family by PF, or someone else, to buy time.

I am trying to explain how come none of the family got scared between November 25th when she did not answer her phone and December 2nd.

So far, I am trusting mom's description of KB as a responsible person for whom sudden disappearance would not be an option and brother's description of the family as a tight-knit family exchanging regular calls.

There are families, and adult kids, who do not exchange frequent calls. There are people who don't like answering their phones for no obvious reason. But so far, I go by what the family says. I have no reason not to. They seem supportive.

So I have an obvious question. In a supportive family, fow come no one noticed/reported her disappearance for the whole week?

My theory is, that they were told something, by PF, or by KB herself, that would calm them and explain her being off the cellphone radar for the week.

So my question is, what could have been said to pacify and calm the parents by PF? That she is driving somewhere where there is no cellphone connection? That she is somewhere where people do not have readily access to their cellphones?

Mental health facility was one of the possibilities I entertained as the explanation provided to the mother \ by PF - because mental health patients have less access to their cellphones than anyone else.

For all I know, it could be a medical facility (although I can't think of the reason for a hospitalization, a week is a long time and KB was healthy).

Any other pretext for absence that could imply a week's absence and lack of phone communication would be fine by me. I just can't think of anything.

But I also support @Bill Carson's theory that Kelsey might have sent the texts herself. Implying that she was driving somewhere in Idaho. Or, likely, was driven by someone else and that someone else was involved in her disappearance after she sent those messages.

I have not been following the case for several hours. Maybe I am late with my theories and something has been found?

Maybe, as someone posted, it was a false ping?

But in my imagination, I see Kelsey sitting in PF's, or someone else's car, willingly, to be driven somewhere, and sending these messages on the 25th, and then pretty soon meeting some foul play.
Another reason why I believe her body is not transported in the car to be hidden is absence of any information about cadaver dogs being alerted.

Again, I might be 100% wrong, as all LE's activity is visibly located around PF's and in KB's houses.

But as long as we don't know anything, we can use own theories. And I am following SM, too, but taking it with a grain of salt as posts are of totally opposite nature.

If there is evidence that Kelsey never set foot in Idaho during that fateful time, from Nov 22 till December 2, I shall happily retract my guesses. But so far, no one has either proven or disproven them.
 
At this moment in time, the only sure fact we have is KB is missing. We don't know if she's living, dead, voluntarily missing, involuntarily missing. The only evidence is that her phone was in Idaho, a state where she has family. We should explore all possibilities. Having tunnel vision, especially in such a young case, is not good.

I don't think it's "tunnel" vision. We just cannot come up with a viable alternative that we can't put holes in. We may not know much but we know enough that makes PF look suspicious. I've said before, if he wanted to deflect suspicion elsewhere, he should call his attorney and make a public statement through him. Not an interview, just a statement! It would at least give the optics that you have nothing to hide and perhaps open a door to other possibilities. He hasn't done that.

In the meantime, it would appear the only things LE have lead back to him.
 
Please post links to that evidence because I can find nothing on the internet. There is no banking reports, phone records etc available that I can find. I don't see her friends lining up to talk about her. Where did you find video other than the grocery store video? I can find none of what you're saying. Please post links to it.
Law enforcement doesn’t post evidence on the Internet. We are not entitled to see it.

Gitana’s point was that law enforcement explored all these avenues, and have determined that something other than a willful disappearance occurred.

They have focused their investigation on one man, based on their findings.
 
Hi all - There isn't a lot of detailed information that we know but imo LE does have a lot more. To give myself something else to think about on this case I made a list of things I think LE knows by now that we don't.

1) Computer information: Emails on KB commuter could give them a clearer picture of her family/friend/romantic relationships, a calendar with events planned, any recent purchases and financial situation. Google searches.

2) Information from colleagues on KB communication practices.

3) Understanding of normal childcare practices for baby K.

4) Phone information: Frequency of calls with friends, family, romantic interest. Text messages. Last location of her phone before it stopped activity on 11/22.

5) State of her home: Any disruption in normal household situation.

6) Baby K info: When is her next dr appt? I know babies have a frequent check up and inoculation schedule. Anything coming up that KB wouldn't want to miss?

7) Video surveillance: From grocery, parking lot, neighbors, other locations.

8) Social schedule: Any standing appointments like a book club, manicure, hair.

It makes me feel reassured to know that all of this information and much more is known by LE and they are keeping it to themselves and using to properly solve this case.

I do also believe they are processing additional information (DNA for example). I'm hopeful there will be news soon.
 
MOD NOTE

Several posts have been removed. Leave the Facebook drama on Facebook. Do not bring it here. Do not discuss the content of social media comments unless they are from an approved social media page for this case and they are posted by the social media page's admin(s).

Take your discussions about who said what on Facebook to your private conversations.

This post lands at random.
Thank you for the clarification! I was confused, I thought if it was family on the approved page, we could mention comments. My bad, I will not do it again.
 
Well that Jerk (yeah I think I can just call him a jerk based on his actions) PF better let KB's mom see her grandaughter.........xmas is in 5 days. I can't imagine what that poor woman is going through. Can't she get an order of some kind to visit with the baby? Can't grandparents do that? Whats that called injunction? I have no clue.
Not a legal expert and states can vary, but in general grandparents don’t have rights. It’s an unfortunate reality that is very difficult to overcome.
 
I don't think it's "tunnel" vision. We just cannot come up with a viable alternative that we can't put holes in. We may not know much but we know enough that makes PF look suspicious. I've said before, if he wanted to deflect suspicion elsewhere, he should call his attorney and make a public statement through him. Not an interview, just a statement! It would at least give the optics that you have nothing to hide and perhaps open a door to other possibilities. He hasn't done that.

In the meantime, it would appear the only things LE have lead back to him.

Yes, putting out a statement of concern wouldn’t leave him open to questioning, but would make him seem a little more human.

As well, couldn’t he let KB’s mother see the baby, even if only in the presence of another individual, as I expect he wouldn’t want to meet with CB? He isn’t really at risk of not getting baby K back if this occurred, is he?
 
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That is a completely understandable viewpoint, and as I said from the beginning, he should be completely eliminated. My main point was that I feel I want to know all the facts and not make an assumption either way based on innuendo and holes dug. A few posters here seem to take it really to heart if someone else doesn't immediately align themselves with their viewpoints.
What @gitana1 said.

Plus: the whole local police, CBI, and the FBI - “viewpoint”. I’m pretty sure they have a better handle on the evidence. Hence, the reason they brought in massive equipment to dig “holes”.
 
Yeah---I don't know. I'm reluctant to post wild, speculative stories about how something might have happened.

However, I do think it is worth exploring that she might have left her home on foot to walk down to the restaurants and bars after PF picked up the child. That would certainly explain why only her purse and her phone appear to be missing. And maybe she was walking down to meet PF. Or maybe someone else. Or maybe she was going by herself and met someone.

But I hope LE has questioned everyone at those restaurants and bars, and looked for any security footage that might still exist.

I'm pretty sure everyone in these small towns knows KB is missing. If she was seen, it would have been reported. MSM has interviewed people, too.
 
Not a legal expert and states can vary, but in general grandparents don’t have rights. It’s an unfortunate reality that is very difficult to overcome.
Yup. This is likely why Kelsey’s mother is playing nice with him.

He’s the gatekeeper as far as her grandchild goes, and any negative statement on her part, could close the door completely.

I think it’s closed anyways, as this guy doesn’t seem inclined to do the right thing.
 
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Correct me , with MSM link, if I’m wrong but we do not know if...
- there was any activity on KBs cell and credit / debit cards from 11/22-11/25 (it’s extremely plausible Safeway was just last place LE could find her on the video) . I have not seen it confirmed by LE that there was no activity from 11/22-11/25. Instead last known time KB was on video was 11/22, last KB cell activity 11/25
- we do not know the contents of the 11/25 texts to PF or Doss. LE did not confirm that each received a single text , correct? There could have been back and forth conversation. (I have been assuming single texts but it hasn’t been confirmed that I have read)
 
I posted a screenshot map of downtown WP last night. KB's home is less than a quarter-mile from the main highway, and there are nearly a dozen restaurants and probably four or more bars within a half-mile or so from her home. The weather was said to be nice.

OK, when you find some corroborating information, post it.
 
Then you havent been reading much here. Take a look at quite a few "new profiles" that have come in asserting that with NO, ZIP, NONE, NADA proof whatsoever
My only statements have been her job and possibly religious background may force KB to hide any mental issues, and PPD is not out of the realm of possibilities.

Do I think it's likely? No.

But I also never thought a pilot for a major airline company would intentionally fly a plane into a mountain, so even if it's 99.99% unlikely, it's not 100%.
 
Yeah. Tunnel vision is not good.

No. That's not the only evidence.

After two weeks with ALL the evidence - bank and credit card records, phone records, social media records, other internet records, dating apps if they exist, AIRBNB accounts, Uber or Lyft accounts, interviews with neighbors, friends, family ("Were you aware of plans of KB to come visit you in Soap Lake?" "Has KB ever taken off before? Talked about depression? Relationships? Problems with the baby? Dating? History of alcohol issues? Mental health? Any odd behavior lately?"), reviewing any and all surveillance recordings that they can find from markets, airports, bus and train stations, gas stations, truck stops, restaurants, hotels and motels, reviewing all tips no matter how insane, inquiring at any hospital, rehab or other institution in likely various states to determine whether KB is there, as they can do per HIPAA, and on and on and on, a multi-agency investigation with the resources and power that the FBI and CBI uniquely have, they've turned their focus obviously in one direction.

Do you disagree that LE has explored all possibilities with every bit of manpower and every last resource they have? Do you believe that multiple agencies have failed to do a thoroughly job, lacked probable cause (as determined by a court) to search PF's premises and vehicles, and developed unwarranted tunnel vision?

It's not one thing. It's multiple things.

Is it enough to arrest anyone? Clearly not yet. But it certainly is enough for me to use common sense to start eliminating some possibilities.

Love how you nailed that!
 
My only statements have been her job and possibly religious background may force KB to hide any mental issues, and PPD is not out of the realm of possibilities.

Do I think it's likely? No.

But I also never thought a pilot for a major airline company would intentionally fly a plane into a mountain, so even if it's 99.99% unlikely, it's not 100%.

He had mental health issues and they were documented, but ignored?
 
From Clayton Sandell (ABC) via Twitter (including short video):

We caught up with Patrick Frazee today to ask if he had anything to say about his fiancée #KelseyBerreth, missing since Thanksgiving. He wasn’t interested in speaking. Police say they want to sit down with him. @ABC @ABCWorldNews Clayton Sandell on Twitter
Haaaa. “He wasn’t interested in speaking” is putting it lightly.

He didn’t look too happy there.
 
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