CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #11

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Yup. This is likely why Kelsey’s mother is playing nice with him.

He’s the gatekeeper as far as her grandchild goes, and any negative statement on her part, could close the door completely.

I think it’s closed anyways, as this guy doesn’t seem inclined to do the right thing.

This case, specifically regarding Kelsey's Mother's behavior towards PF reminds me very much of the case of a missing high school teacher from Md. , Laura Wallen. In that case, the perp was Laura's boyfriend and Laura was not only missing but also pregnant. Laura's parents acted supportive of the boyfriend, even at the presser, they were holding hands. However, you could tell from body language they were trying to distance themselves. I think they acted this way for a couple of reasons. First, they were most likely instructed by law enforcement to act supportive. For one thing, if the boyfriend had Laura held captive somewhere, they didn't want their actions to cause any harm to Laura. Second, they were concerned about her unborn baby! I think this is very typical in these cases. I'm sure CB is very concerned for Kelsey's safety. She is also concerned about access to the baby! Nobody knows where Kelsey is and I highly doubt it has been ruled out that she may be held captive somewhere. However, looking at this from CB's perspective, she has nothing gain by alienating PF. Most families hold out hope, and who could blame them!
 
I snipped to focus on the part where you addressed something I specifically said. First, thank you for sharing your expertise. The subject is fascinating and I’m probably way out of my depth.

Now to correct something - I didn’t say people found comforting that a percentage of the population feels no empathy or remorse. What I said was that I think people might find it comforting to put these people who do monstrous things in a separate category, making them fundamentally different. By compartmentalizing evil behavior, we circle the wagons and feel oh so much better and safer because we are us and they are them. We won’t be hurt because we will use good judgement and stay away from them.
I see what you're saying in the last couple of sentences and agree with your premise that we shouldn't mythologize things in order to feel safe. The mentality you describe is exactly what motivates victim-blaming as well. I hate it when people say, "Oh, that mass-shooter is just evil: we can never understand!" Because we may not be able to relate, but of course we can seek to understand. Gaining that knowledge and understanding is how we find interventions to protect victims and potential victims and hopefully improve treatment for people with ASPD too--because I believe they deserve to know what it feels like to live with love and empathy. I can't imagine anything worse than having to live with ASPD.

Saying someone is "evil" and saying they have ASPD/NPD are two totally different things. Personality disorders are a set of identifiable chronic symptoms that we can diagnose. It's not a moral judgment, it's a diagnosis. Then we have to decide how we deal with people who have that disorder. The problem is, it is kind of us and them. "The Sociopath Next Door" explains it much better than I can, but the simple truth is that we have to interact differently with people who don't have remorse or empathy, for our own safety.

Empathy is fundamental to how we treat other humans, and we can't expect someone without it to behave the same way as someone with it. Just like you shouldn't offer a friend recovering from substance use disorder "just one drink," you can't place your trust in someone devoid of empathy. Their disease is what it is, and most of the time they will respond in a predictable way. And to complicate matters, part of ASPD/NPD (as we witnessed with CW, textbook) is an ability to mimic empathy and normal emotional responses and to deceive and manipulate others. So I do think we need to have an increased awareness of these disorders and what they look like in terms of behavior, and when we find ourselves or others in relationships with them, most experts do recommend avoidance and extremely cautious interaction.

I agree with you that we shouldn't expect our own good judgment to protect us. We need to be cognizant that ASPD/NPD exists in one-in-ten of the people we cross paths with, and just be cautious. Most of the time, these people aren't going to kill us, but they may make our lives miserable for a while if we make the mistake of engaging. Knowledge is power.
 
@Gitana - I never meant that she was there. I think it is the third time I am typing the same version. I did not say that Kelsey checked herself in a MH facility. I am merely wondering what explanation was provided to KB's family by PF, or someone else, to buy time.

I am trying to explain how come none of the family got scared between November 25th when she did not answer her phone and December 2nd.

So far, I am trusting mom's description of KB as a responsible person for whom sudden disappearance would not be an option and brother's description of the family as a tight-knit family exchanging regular calls.

There are families, and adult kids, who do not exchange frequent calls. There are people who don't like answering their phones for no obvious reason. But so far, I go by what the family says. I have no reason not to. They seem supportive.

So I have an obvious question. In a supportive family, fow come no one noticed/reported her disappearance for the whole week?

My theory is, that they were told something, by PF, or by KB herself, that would calm them and explain her being off the cellphone radar for the week.

So my question is, what could have been said to pacify and calm the parents by PF? That she is driving somewhere where there is no cellphone connection? That she is somewhere where people do not have readily access to their cellphones?

Mental health facility was one of the possibilities I entertained as the explanation provided to the mother \ by PF - because mental health patients have less access to their cellphones than anyone else.

For all I know, it could be a medical facility (although I can't think of the reason for a hospitalization, a week is a long time and KB was healthy).

Any other pretext for absence that could imply a week's absence and lack of phone communication would be fine by me. I just can't think of anything.

But I also support @Bill Carson's theory that Kelsey might have sent the texts herself. Implying that she was driving somewhere in Idaho. Or, likely, was driven by someone else and that someone else was involved in her disappearance after she sent those messages.

I have not been following the case for several hours. Maybe I am late with my theories and something has been found?

Maybe, as someone posted, it was a false ping?

But in my imagination, I see Kelsey sitting in PF's, or someone else's car, willingly, to be driven somewhere, and sending these messages on the 25th, and then pretty soon meeting some foul play.
Another reason why I believe her body is not transported in the car to be hidden is absence of any information about cadaver dogs being alerted.

Again, I might be 100% wrong, as all LE's activity is visibly located around PF's and in KB's houses.

But as long as we don't know anything, we can use own theories. And I am following SM, too, but taking it with a grain of salt as posts are of totally opposite nature.

If there is evidence that Kelsey never set foot in Idaho during that fateful time, from Nov 22 till December 2, I shall happily retract my guesses. But so far, no one has either proven or disproven them.

Oh, okay. Got it. I misunderstood.

I guess it's possible he told her that but seems contrary to what has been publicized which is that she said she was going to visit family in Soda Lake.

I'm certain LE has scoured ID for info regarding Kelsey. But at this point they seem to be pretty focused. And not in ID.

If she went with someone else it should not be too hard to track via phone records, dating apps, etc. And yet, not one word or hint from LE that they're focused on anyone but PF.

I would not expect them to publicize any cadaver dog results at this stage of the game. I think that would be kept quiet until a trial, if there is one, or pre-trial.

I have the very same question as you do. Why didn't her family report her missing for so long? I wonder if any media person has asked that question.
 
1. A high-profile case will always bring in new members.
2. As someone who lurked as a guest for a long time, the new format here is a lot more mobile friendly (I use my phone exclusively), so that made it much easier for me to start posting. Maybe others have joined in because of the new format, too.

Long time lurker, first time poster... Honestly, I only set up an account so I could click through to see the images people posted (can’t do that as a guest from my phone...). But now I’m here, so hi y’all!! Praying for KB ❤️

ETA....Holy Moley, obviously a first time poster stumbling around not quoting things properly!! Fixed now, I think...
 
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I have a legal question for any of the verified attorneys. I think I know the answer, but I'm not certain....

In a missing person case like this, isn't it true that LE would have to obtain a search warrant to enter KB's home and search for clues of her disappearance?

I know that they can enter without a warrant when there are exigent circumstances, and I think that includes situations like LE being asked to do a welfare check---they can enter to see if a person is present or injured or dead.

But since KB is missing and cannot consent to a full-blown search with the collection of evidence and all that---and I wouldn't think KB's mom could consent on her behalf unless (maybe) she has a power of attorney or something.....

So it seems like LE would need to apply for an obtain a search warrant for the new searches yesterday and today.....am I right?
 
My honorable friend, can we at least admit that "we"--(meaning "you" of course (ROFL, I crack myself up---please don't be offended at my attempt to lighten the conversation))--are ASSUMING that the police have explored these avenues?

Can we?

Because, respectfully, we don't know what avenues they have explored, other than what police have explicitly told us (as faithfully catalogued by Pommy) and we can see with our own eyes, such as the executed search warrants on PF's and KB's properties? Other than those two categories, we are all just guessing. Now, they may be educated, reasonable guesses, but we don't really know.

What we do know is that LE is investigating and that they are holding their cards close to their vests. Everything else, ISTM, is speculation.

Edited to add: MOO

Not the police. The FBI and the CBI. Do you think that's a stupid assumption to make? What else do they do? We know what they do. We've seen these cases before.
 
bale·ful
/ˈbālfəl/
adjective
  1. threatening harm; menacing.
    "Bill shot a baleful glance in her direction"
    synonyms: menacing, threatening, unfriendly, hostile, antagonistic, evil, evil-intentioned, vindictive, wicked, nasty, bitter, acrimonious, malevolent, malicious, malignant, malign, sinister

    Learned a little something here, thanks.

Ok, just watched it. I agree...if looks could kill...
 
Her husband said she was depressed in the weeks leading up to it. No?
I know your question was not directed at me, and I don't remember if her husband used the word "depressed" specifically, but I followed that case closely and thought I'd share what I do remember. I do recall her husband saying that he was concerned about her mental state because she had seemed a bit down after their return to the states. I remember doing research about how to transition back into a daily routine after an extended period of travel, and I found that it was extremely common for globe trotters to find the transition difficult and that many struggle with anxiety or depression for a period of time. I think it was clear from the beginning that suicide was a real possibility and was the outcome they feared they might find. Even so, there were many people who initially suspected the husband of foul play even though he was completely forthcoming with the public and LE, displayed genuine concern for her, and was actively and visibly helping with search efforts.
 
I see what you're saying in the last couple of sentences and agree with your premise that we shouldn't mythologize things in order to feel safe. The mentality you describe is exactly what motivates victim-blaming as well. I hate it when people say, "Oh, that mass-shooter is just evil: we can never understand!" Because we may not be able to relate, but of course we can seek to understand. Gaining that knowledge and understanding is how we find interventions to protect victims and potential victims and hopefully improve treatment for people with ASPD too--because I believe they deserve to know what it feels like to live with love and empathy. I can't imagine anything worse than having to live with ASPD.

Saying someone is "evil" and saying they have ASPD/NPD are two totally different things. Personality disorders are a set of identifiable chronic symptoms that we can diagnose. It's not a moral judgment, it's a diagnosis. Then we have to decide how we deal with people who have that disorder. The problem is, it is kind of us and them. "The Sociopath Next Door" explains it much better than I can, but the simple truth is that we have to interact differently with people who don't have remorse or empathy, for our own safety.

Empathy is fundamental to how we treat other humans, and we can't expect someone without it to behave the same way as someone with it. Just like you shouldn't offer a friend recovering from substance use disorder "just one drink," you can't place your trust in someone devoid of empathy. Their disease is what it is, and most of the time they will respond in a predictable way. And to complicate matters, part of ASPD/NPD (as we witnessed with CW, textbook) is an ability to mimic empathy and normal emotional responses and to deceive and manipulate others. So I do think we need to have an increased awareness of these disorders and what they look like in terms of behavior, and when we find ourselves or others in relationships with them, most experts do recommend avoidance and extremely cautious interaction.

I agree with you that we shouldn't expect our own good judgment to protect us. We need to be cognizant that ASPD/NPD exists in one-in-ten of the people we cross paths with, and just be cautious. Most of the time, these people aren't going to kill us, but they may make our lives miserable for a while if we make the mistake of engaging. Knowledge is power.

Wow, that's very informative...thank you!

BBM And I have to be self-aware enough to remember that I sometimes frustrate others because I always try to seek out and understand WHY someone did something and not just WHAT they did. In the CW case, I was hellbent on finding out 'why' because I don't like to live in a world where evil things just happen. Of course, there seems to be a fine line between "evil people" and "people with ASPD/NPD" and I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that.
 
Not the police. The FBI and the CBI. Do you think that's a stupid assumption to make? What else do they do? We know what they do. We've seen these cases before.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be vague. I thought it would be clear that I was lumping all LE under one umbrella when I use the term "police." I hope they don't feel disrespected when I use that term.
 
Additionally, suicide wouldn't explain why PF didn't report her missing. If he was concerned and didn't know where she was, he'd have reported her missing.
Exactly! I can’t help but think of the Maine teacher, KW, whose husband said he didn’t care what people thought of him when he spoke to the media, he wanted people to search for her. Just because PF may not have been in a romantic relationship with KB isn’t a reason to have so little regard for his daughter’s mother, especially when he had to know that she had few, if any, other close personal connections in CO. That’s hard to ignore.
 
My honorable friend, can we at least admit that "we"--(meaning "you" of course (ROFL, I crack myself up---please don't be offended at my attempt to lighten the conversation))--are ASSUMING that the police have explored these avenues?

Can we?

Because, respectfully, we don't know what avenues they have explored, other than what police have explicitly told us (as faithfully catalogued by Pommy) and we can see with our own eyes, such as the executed search warrants on PF's and KB's properties? Other than those two categories, we are all just guessing. Now, they may be educated, reasonable guesses, but we don't really know.

What we do know is that LE is investigating and that they are holding their cards close to their vests. Everything else, ISTM, is speculation.

Edited to add: MOO
Actually it's more than assumption. LE in ID and WA did say they had been notified. CB stated they had called the grandmother to see if KB had contacted her and she said no, and has been on the look out. We also know through CO LE that all planes were checked at the aviation place she worked at. So no, it's not assuming they have looked elsewhere, it's that fact that they have.
 
Yes, putting out a statement of concern wouldn’t leave him open to questioning, but would make him seem a little more human.

As well, couldn’t he let KB’s mother see the baby, even if only in the presence of another individual, as I expect he wouldn’t want to meet with CB? He isn’t really at risk of not getting baby K back if this occurred, is he?

Exactly. He could have set something up through his attorney. As it is, he looks only suspicious. No emotion. No empathy or even sympathy for KB's family who are desperate for information to find her. As a parent and grandparent I don't know how CB has held it together. Running on empty. It's hard to stay neutral when faced with such arrogance and self preservation. MOO
 
ITA. You care about the child and don't want them to be without the other parent and try to encourage their relationship with the other parent and his family.

Wow, y’all are reasonable people. I know too many who are extremely vengeful toward the parent of their child and make the child(ren) collateral damage. I don’t understand it, but the people I’m thinking of definitely have personality “issues.”
 
That is a very interesting article. Three individuals whose behavior raised huge red flags but turned out to be completely innocent.

Yes, and here's a quote from one of them: "It was not a fun thing to go through, that's for sure," said Tim Tometich, 42, who lives along the running route where Tibbetts was last seen. "But we all wanted her found and home safe and obviously understand they had a job to do and needed to track down every lead they had."
 
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