CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #57 *ARREST*

[MassGuy]

All calls, of any voice origin, are billed in the cellular network of the United States. Even if the caller plan is unlimited and there is unlimited roving, the individual calls are still billed to the burner phone carrier, for accounting purposes.
I find it very strange that all of these supposed burner phones only exist in the testimony of KK, so far. IMO

Why is that strange?

The preliminary hearing and arrest affidavit was about PF, not KK.

He’s on trial for murder, she isn’t.

 

[Dave F.]

Ok, granted I was up all night, couldn't sleep, so I was on here slot. So, I am tired this morning. That said, I did catch this quote. And something is wrong but, I can't put my finger on it yet--still drowsy.

"Let’s examine you questions logically:
Q: If KK is the killer, then why did PF return to the house?
A: There is no proof that PF returned to the house. A furniture store security camera photo of a red truck with a white tote in the back just doesn’t cut it. PF’s red truck was parked in the Walmart lot at the time, without any tote. A distant security camera captured a figure in a white shirt or top, while PF wore nothing but gray t-shirts. Obviously, PF denies the allegation that he returned to the house to kill KB. The jury will hear and see both sides."

That time frame is not right. He still had time to get to KB's. Wal-Mart, to me, was alibi building.

WalMart IS an alibi, for the time until 3:17 pm, when he presumably left the parking lot (based on time-stamped checkout at 3:13 pm). His truck never left the lot until then. LE's observance of a red truck with a white tote going past the furniture store at around 3:00 pm means nothing at all. A long distance still of a security camera photo of a figure in a white shirt or top is proof that a figure in a white shirt or top was at KB's door. Nothing more and nothing less. IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

No no. There are no logical answers because KK is psychotic. Nothing logical about her.
You cannot bring one into the equation without the other. Thst

And that’s the problem with this case. As GK likes to say, “ you can’t put square pegs into a round hole”. Or is it round pegs in a square hole? Either way..

RSABBM:

KK is not psychotic.

For reference:
https://www.nami.org/NAMI/media/NAMI-Media/Images/FactSheets/Psychosis-FS.pdf

There is no evidence whatsoever to support that KK is psychotic.
There is no evidence that she sees, hears or believes things that aren't real.
There is no evidence that she experiences delusions or hallucinations.

If KK had described PF soliciting her to poison KB's Starbucks, and then went on to describe seeing blood everywhere in KB's townhome, and going to pick up a body in a barn up on a bale of hay, and then going to a big bonfire at the franch, and there was no evidence to support any of that account, then, yeah:
I could see why a person might think she was delusional.

But there IS in fact evidence to support what KK told LE.

KB herself recounted the story of a stranger bringing coffee to her.
LE found blood in the townhome.
LE found evidence of a burn at the franch where KK told them it occurred.
LE found a discolored bale of hay where she said they retrieved the tote.

That wasn't all some big hallucination.

KK may very well be a sociopath.
There IS evidence to support that she is devoid of a conscience.

But she can distinguish between what's real and what is unreal.
She is NOT delusional.

The reality here is ugly:
PF murdered KB.
KK cleaned up after him.

That's the reality...and KK is fully aware of that.

She ain't "psychotic."
She's evil.

Big difference.

JMO.

 

[Ccging]

Didn’t KK take some of her cleaning supplies from the hospital she worked at? And I recall she disposed of items in the hospital dumpster when she returned home?

Hoping there is security footage of both that LE have.

 

[MassGuy]

Let’s examine you questions logically:
Q: If KK is the killer, then why did PF return to the house?
A: There is no proof that PF returned to the house. A furniture store security camera photo of a red truck with a white tote in the back just doesn’t cut it. PF’s red truck was parked in the Walmart lot at the time, without any tote. A distant security camera captured a figure in a white shirt or top, while PF wore nothing but gray t-shirts. Obviously, PF denies the allegation that he returned to the house to kill KB. The jury will hear and see both sides.

<Snipped for focus>

A figure matching PF’s description was caught on camera on two occasions at Kelsey’s house.

The first time was 7 minutes after he left WAL-MART, which works perfectly with the driving distance.

The odds of that being anyone else, is highly unlikely in the first place. It’s also supported by phone location data.

One does not need a perfectly clear image to reach the conclusion that it is PF.

That figure is caught again a couple hours later. At this approximate time, two phone calls are made.

Again, that makes logical sense. The murder is over, and it’s time to begin the attempt to get away with it.

We don’t know what PF said to his mommy or KK on these phone calls. My belief is that he told mommy he was running late, and KK that she had “a mess to cleanup.”

When he leaves, Kelsey’s phone leaves too. For the next couple days, their phone activities are beyond bizarre.

Those phones should be nowhere near each other, yet they are together (or atleast in close proximity) on multiple occasions.

We’re not talking about a single moment in time, but numerous. One cannot logically claim that this is in error.

Kelsey’s phone should be pinging off the tower nearest her house, but it isn’t.

Because she was dead, and PF had her phone.

 

[Gardener1850]

Well, this was a townhouse so if she worked fast I think it's possible to clean in that amount of time. It was probably only about eight or nine hundred square feet.
She probably just concentrated on getting all the blood and didn't have to do much in Kelseys bedroom. It's not like she dusted, polished, and vacuumed.

Imo

BBM. It's not even that big: 742 Sq Ft: Teller County Property Records Database

I agree with you, I think 4 hours is pretty realistic. KK didn't have to do many tasks that cleaners typically do such as dust the baseboards, dust ceiling fans and light fixtures, dust blinds, make beds, scrub soap scum from shower walls, Scrub calcium deposits in toilets, clean burned on food in ovens, polish wood furniture, polish appliances, vacuum carpets, etc. She was only trying to get rid of all appearance of blood so that the house looked "normal". She pretty much only cleaned where she saw blood. And she missed spots in the bathroom which were seen by KB's family members. A professional cleaner would have wiped the outside of the toilet down-- that's pretty basic cleaning bathrooms 101. When there was blood on things she couldn't clean such as fabric on pillows, curtains, or toys she simply removed those items and threw them away in a trash bag. I think she threw away the bath mat too. She left several spots of blood that she was able to point out to LE later. If she had been cleaning as a paying job she would have been fired. She took short cuts that normal house cleaners wouldn't dream of doing. Between the short cuts, the poor cleaning job and the small size of the home I can easily see her getting it done in 3 or 4 hours. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

BBM. It's not even that big: 742 Sq Ft: Teller County Property Records Database

I agree with you, I think 4 hours is pretty realistic. KK didn't have to do many tasks that cleaners typically do such as dust the baseboards, dust ceiling fans and light fixtures, dust blinds, make beds, scrub soap scum from shower walls, Scrub calcium deposits in toilets, clean burned on food in ovens, polish wood furniture, polish appliances, vacuum carpets, etc. She was only trying to get rid of all appearance of blood so that the house looked "normal". She pretty much only cleaned where she saw blood. And she missed spots in the bathroom which were seen by KB's family members. A professional cleaner would have wiped the outside of the toilet down-- that's pretty basic cleaning bathrooms 101. When there was blood on things she couldn't clean such as fabric on pillows, curtains, or toys she simply removed those items and threw them away in a trash bag. I think she threw away the bath mat too. She left several spots of blood that she was able to point out to LE later. If she had been cleaning as a paying job she would have been fired. She took short cuts that normal house cleaners wouldn't dream of doing. Between the short cuts, the poor cleaning job and the small size of the home I can easily see her getting it done in 3 or 4 hours. MOO.

Exactly. And those actions coupled with the blood evidence, completely support the account that KB was killed with a baseball bat.

Blood splatter travels, which explains KK throwing away curtains (and the rest of the objects you mentioned), wiping down photos, and blood on the fireplace.

She not only had enough time to clean in the manner she did, but her account is fully supported by the evidence.

 

[GordianKnot]

BBM. It's not even that big: 742 Sq Ft: Teller County Property Records Database

I agree with you, I think 4 hours is pretty realistic. KK didn't have to do many tasks that cleaners typically do such as dust the baseboards, dust ceiling fans and light fixtures, dust blinds, make beds, scrub soap scum from shower walls, Scrub calcium deposits in toilets, clean burned on food in ovens, polish wood furniture, polish appliances, vacuum carpets, etc. She was only trying to get rid of all appearance of blood so that the house looked "normal". She pretty much only cleaned where she saw blood. And she missed spots in the bathroom which were seen by KB's family members. A professional cleaner would have wiped the outside of the toilet down-- that's pretty basic cleaning bathrooms 101. When there was blood on things she couldn't clean such as fabric on pillows, curtains, or toys she simply removed those items and threw them away in a trash bag. I think she threw away the bath mat too. She left several spots of blood that she was able to point out to LE later. If she had been cleaning as a paying job she would have been fired. She took short cuts that normal house cleaners wouldn't dream of doing. Between the short cuts, the poor cleaning job and the small size of the home I can easily see her getting it done in 3 or 4 hours. MOO.

BBM:

With regard to the trash bags and all the bloody items KK disposed of, I'm intrigued by the question of what/where the trash bags were ultimately tossed out.

I'm wondering if some of the bags that LE recovered at the transfer station after PF and 2 male "friends" were spotted there contained the bloody items that KK bagged up at KB's townhome.

It will be interesting to hear at trial whether or not LE was able to recover any of the trash from the murder scene.

JMO.

 

[Warwick7]

I agree she likely had a place she carried several phones with her. However, this is how many people end up getting burned using burner phones.

They drop their personal phone in the pocket, bag or holster right next to the burner phone. Police doing investigation discover a strange number, that number has cellular data attached to it, just not the name of the person using it. However with cross referencing the suspects personal phone data the trail of the ping on their personal phone matches, and boom you are implicated as the one controlling the burner.

It has not been released to the public, but I would expect that police required KK to provide the cell numbers on her burner phones, so I am sure they pulled what records exist. (I know tower pings are erased after a short period, but there is data from no connects and other interactions.)

The burner numbers would have shown on PF's cell records too, unless he was using a burner. Once again KK would have that number and those records would be collected.

I am expecting the cell data from all of the phones will be one area that is expanded significantly from the rudimentary level of discussion done at the preliminary hearing, where it only concerned the phones of PF, KK and KB. Especially considering the acknowledge the use of burner phones.

MOO of course, since my wife refuses to share my opinion.

Wow I did not know about cellular data attaching to it.

 

[Warwick7]

We have been through all of this before. Please read Search Warrant Application SW 18-120, Affidavit, Attachment A, Page 14, Paragraph 2. All of the "calls" made by PF on the afternoon of November 22nd were unsuccessful attempts to call. They were not recorded by pings, but were lifted by LE directly from the call record of PF's physical cell phone. As it explains, most of them were probably dialed from areas with poor cellular cpverage, and the call was simply dropped.
If PF and KK talked at all on November 22nd, it was on burner phones. Since There is no evidence that PF ever had one, and KK admits destroying all of her collection; this information indicates nothing.
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/002/18-120 Search Warrant.pdf

Dave please don't be short with me and say "We have been through all this before."

I wasn't here before. I have a right to visit and post about this case.

 

[Gardener1850]

BBM:

With regard to the trash bags and all the bloody items KK disposed of, I'm intrigued by the question of what/where the trash bags were thrown out.

I can't remember if that's something that was covered in any of the court docs or not.

I'm wondering if some of the bags that LE recovered at the transfer station after PF and 2 male "friends" were spotted there contained the bloody items that KK bagged up at KB's townhome.

It will be interesting to hear at trial whether or not LE was able to recover any of the trash from the murder scene.

JMO.

Did KK say the items in the trash bag were burned in the fire with KB's body? I can't remember for sure if that happened or if it was speculation here. I also hope that those items were recovered if they were not burned. We never did find out what PF was dumping at the waste station run where he stayed in the truck while his "friends" unloaded a trailer. There is so much evidence that hasn't been revealed to us yet. I expect many more bombshells of evidence against PF to come out in this trial. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

Wow I did not know about cellular data attaching to it.

Yeah, a burner phone behaves the exact same way as a regular cell phone.

The difference is that it doesn’t have a person’s name attached to it. That won’t be an issue here, as KK would know her number (if law enforcement wasn’t able to figure it out on their own based on contact with PF’s phone).

 

[CDB]

Wow I did not know about cellular data attaching to it.

The linked article is a great rundown on how "untraceable" is a burner phone. The only real advantage is that no identity is logged at the time of purchase. In the end they still use the same towers and networks your personal phone uses, so all the same data exists for them, just not tied to your name.

The last paragraph in the article sums it up well.
"In conclusion, burners can give you a measure of anonymity, but they’re by no means untraceable. If you’re looking for total assurance that your phone calls won’t be tapped, I recommend using two tin cans and a length of string."

Can Disposable “Burner” Cellphones Protect You From Government Surveillance?

 

[MassGuy]

While sleuthing family is not allowed, KK's family situation is much more complex than can be covered by the simple statement:
"Her Dad didn't notice anything different on Thanksgiving."
The confirmed location of KK in Idaho has only been the exchange of vehicles at approximately 3:30 pm on November 23rd in the WalMart lot in Jerome, Idaho. However, since the arrest of PF on December 21, 2018 MG voluntarily contacted the FBI directly, and gave an entirely new statement to them. We will not know the details of that statement until MG reveals them in trial testimony. IMO

Do you have a link to this account of “an entirely new statement?” This is news to me.

 

[steeltowngirl]

All calls, of any voice origin, are billed in the cellular network of the United States. Even if the caller plan is unlimited and there is unlimited roving, the individual calls are still billed to the burner phone carrier, for accounting purposes.
I find it very strange that all of these supposed burner phones only exist in the testimony of KK, so far. IMO

Where else would they exist? PF isn’t talking.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The linked article is a great rundown on how "untraceable" is a burner phone. The only real advantage is that no identity is logged at the time of purchase. In the end they still use the same towers and networks your personal phone uses, so all the same data exists for them, just not tied to your name.

The last paragraph in the article sums it up well.
"In conclusion, burners can give you a measure of anonymity, but they’re by no means untraceable. If you’re looking for total assurance that your phone calls won’t be tapped, I recommend using two tin cans and a length of string."

Can Disposable “Burner” Cellphones Protect You From Government Surveillance?

“I recommend using two tin cans and a length of string."

PF would have found a way to screw that up too.

 

[Dave F.]

Where else would they exist? PF isn’t talking.

It would be nice to see the billing record for any of these these "burner calls". A copy of a point of sale receipt for an anonymous phone might help, as well. Heck, even seeing a real phone would be nice. IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

<modsnip>

Here is SW 18-118:
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/002/19-04 Search Warrant.pdf

Re: Items 56 and 57, that doesn't indicate that MG completely changed her testimony after PF was arrested on December 21st. I'm not seeing any date there stating when MG spoke to the FBI in that warrant.

The language used in Item 57 is confusing as there are a lot of "she" and "her" references which make it unclear to whom the writer is referring, but I personally believe that the "she" being referenced is KK and that the "her" referenced is MG.

So in Item #57:
"She" = KK.
"Her" = MG.

Translation: KK ("she") called MG ("her") and apologized, stated that she (KK) had lied to her (MG) and that KK ("she") told MG ("her") that she (KK) was going to cooperate with LE.

So my takeaway is that KK is the one who completely changed her tune (which we knew she did).
Not that MG completely changed hers.

JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

<modsnip>

Here is SW 18-118:
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/002/19-04 Search Warrant.pdf

Re: Items 56 and 57, that doesn't indicate that MG completely changed her testimony after PF was arrested on December 21st. I'm not seeing any date there stating when MG spoke to the FBI in that warrant.

The language used in Item 57 is confusing as there are a lot of "she" and "her" references which make it unclear to whom the writer is referring, but I personally believe that the "she" being referenced is KK and that the "her" referenced is MG.

So in Item #57:
"She" = KK.
"Her" = MG.

Translation: KK ("she") called MG ("her") and apologized, stated that she (KK) had lied to her (MG) and that KK ("she") told MG ("her") that she (KK) was going to cooperate with LE.

So my takeaway is that KK is the one who completely changed her tune, which is true.
Not that MG completely changed hers.

JMO.

Yeah. And the original post had to do with KK’s alibi, and this was supposed to support that MG’s story changed (which would throw it into question).

The fact that KK’s alibi isn’t solely based on MG, notwithstanding.

MG merely came forward with additional information regarding events that followed her initial interview.

 

[MassGuy]

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - Kelsey Berreth went missing from her home in Woodland Park on November 22 last year. Since then, her disappearance has uncovered an alleged mistress, murder plots and brutal killing.

It was put on the record early on in the case that the DA's office was not seeking the death penalty. Fourth Judicial District Attorney Dan May explained the decision came after speaking with the Attorney General's office.

"We are not seeking the death penalty in this case, but we did consult with the Attorney General's office. It was their legal opinion that we had no aggravators," he explained.

The trial is set to start on October 28 and will last three weeks. Krystal Lee is anticipated to testify at the trial.

Kelsey Berreth murder case: Trial for Patrick Frazee begins Monday