GUILTY CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #69

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These FBI agents are so calm, as they ask questions, as if it is an 'everyday conversation': possibly not to agitate KK.
KK also here, is just describing events, neither shaking or weeping, which I am surprised at.
Surely, her involvement, must have been embedded in her mind.
As it is so horrid, and now having to reveal to LE, how evil she is, I would have thought there would be far more emotion expressed.
Would she be heavily medicated, here?
We don't see the perhaps 'highly strung, angry' individual.
MOO.


Birds of a feather as to why no emotion by KK? Or she is just going into protection mode and giving the facts?

"I think based on my observations of Patrick Frazee over the last year, that there’s a potential that Patrick Frazee indicates and is consistent with a sociopath," Reid said. "And that’s a person who has basically an inability to feel empathy with other people."

Patrick Frazee found guilty of first-degree murder in death of fiancée, Kelsey Berreth
 
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These FBI agents are so calm, as they ask questions, as if it is an 'everyday conversation': possibly not to agitate KK.
KK also here, is just describing events, neither shaking or weeping, which I am surprised at.
Surely, her involvement, must have been embedded in her mind.
As it is so horrid, and now having to reveal to LE, how evil she is, I would have thought there would be far more emotion expressed.
Would she be heavily medicated, here?
We don't see the perhaps 'highly strung, angry' individual.
MOO.

Appears to me that KK was more symptomatic (i.e., tics, sniffling, etc.,) with investigators when inside KB's condo than when she was outside walking the franch property with the investigative team.

Also, I noticed that KK's lawyer was present at the franch but I don't recall her at the condo.

MOO
 
I think he was always planning on a bonfire for other evidence to be burned, but not necessarily the body. JMO
I will always believe he had it in his head that Krystal would bring the body back to Idaho.

No doubt, he was burning evidence of his part in the murder.

I think he was very surprised when Krystal showed up with her friend's car instead of her truck. He still tried to convince her to take Kelsey's body with her, but she refused, lack of room in the vehicle, made some excuse about it being traced back to him somehow, if she did take her body to Idaho.

I'll always believe that if she did take Kelsey's body with her, he would have made a little phone call to LE, stating he thought his lover killed his girlfriend and she would have been busted on the spot, as she had Kelsey's phone and gun with her. Meanwhile, at the ranch, Patrick just burns a couple of items along with some ranch stuff......
 
It wasn't an exchange of custody for the holiday. It was PF picking up the baby and running his errands while KB took a nap. That was the exchange that took place which was around the same time PF said he picked up baby K.

But Patrick did tell LE that they were broken up and exchanging Baby K. I remember that.

I think shortly after that was when his father figure made some comment about asking the guy she worked with at DOSS where Kelsey was.
 
Random thoughts, some of which are sure to generate hot feelings.

KK has a lot to answer for - and I think she has paid and will continue to pay for what she did. I don't think she was evil to start and I still don't think she was evil. She was hopelessly in love and a perfect storm of events led her step by step down a dreadful path. I think that like JM, she thought (hoped) PF was all talk and no action, that he would 'get over' his nonsense about getting rid of KB.

In her defense...KB was smarter, prettier, didn't have the complicated background with PF that KK did - he was probably KK's first real love, she was always self-conscious about her weight, he pursued her off and on throughout the years, never actually offering her anything but tantalizing hints, she 'rebounded' with him when her marriage was failing, she got pregnant by him and he left her feeling abandoned. By the time she realized that there was no future for them, she was just hoping to get out of the mess without her ex-husband and family and kids finding out what had gone on - and how low she had sunk, driving hundreds of miles for a scrap of 'love' from a guy she couldn't get over.

KB had so much more going on for her than KK, but the two women had something in common - they both got suckered by the same vicious depraved man. It went against KB's beliefs and upbringing to get pregnant by a man she wasn't married or even engaged to - but she did get pregnant, not once but twice, so it was obviously not an accident. She told people at work she was married even though it doesn't even appear that they were ever formally engaged. I doubt she ever expected to be left far from friends and family, a woman unwed to the indifferent father of her child.

KK has lost everything. Prison might actually be easier for her, because then when she came out, she could claim that she had paid her debt to society for what she had done.

PF - there's a piece of work. I appreciate the post above suggesting he's a sociopath. I think that's what I was looking for when I posted earlier that it seemed odd that no one actually came out and said "This dude is not right in the head". That said, he seems to have been able to sucker the ladies.

I have to admit, I get a little satisfaction out of thinking what his last few weeks have been like. He's been sitting in jail for months, knowing he might lose his freedom for years or forever. He's suckered those around him into believing his lies about KB but that might or might not work with a jury. He's probably in a rage about KK - he knows he can't talk to her freely and say the things he likely wants to say. He needs to blame someone for his situation because I think it's clear he has never been held accountable for anything - it's always someone else's fault, those nasty evil women who might take him away from his Ma and the Franch.

So he's sitting there bored out of his mind and stewing and...tada! He strikes up a conversation with a low-level gangbanger-wannabe and in short order, he goes from asking this gangsta boy to arrange a hit on KK to having him take out an extended list of people, some of who have nothing to do with the trial, even adding on things like stealing from JM's 'cash cow' partner to talking about the jobs they'll do together in the future when he gets out. (Pure speculation here: PF was in financial difficulties because cattle prices had allegedly not been favorable. I don't know enough about cattle prices to know if they were really bad or if he was simply a lousy businessman. He ran cattle with his friend JM - perhaps his resentment of JM comes from JM's partner, the 'cash cow' whose money could have tided them over if the cattle market truly was tough.)

What a whiplash of emotions that must have been. From boredom and despondency to euphoria! His problems solved and his future financial independence assured! He shaves his head and he's not just a gangsta-wannabe, he's both customer and order-giver. Keep in mind, this all unfolded in September and October. His new pal gets bonded out in October.

Then time slows down as PF waits for news that his orders have been carried out. He's impatient, but he knows these guys have to set things up, logistics, etc.

More time passes. The trial approaches. PF gets a sinking feeling as there's no word from his ex-con pal and it's clear that his intended victims are alive and well. The trial starts and his worst nightmare - there's KK on the stand, spilling the beans.

And then...a few days before us, but not much - just when PF probably thinks things can't get any worse - PF finds out that his jailhouse buddy not only didn't carry out his orders, his jail house buddy turned on him and the letters are going to come out in court. He still had to sit there (and go back to his cell at night) for several days while the rest of us were out of the loop, knowing what was coming and being powerless to do anything to stop it.

I wonder at what point he finally realized that he probably wasn't walking free, that he will never see the franch again or ride a horse or kick a dog?
 
I'm right there with you. He looks like he is awkwardly pulling something and balancing...plus the baby is leaning forward which would happen if he'd been leaning that way to reach for something right before then straightened up. MOO

I am not sure that’s the baby. I originally thought it was. I think it’s just movement of his other arm that the camera went wacky on.
 
These FBI agents are so calm, as they ask questions, as if it is an 'everyday conversation': possibly not to agitate KK.
KK also here, is just describing events, neither shaking or weeping, which I am surprised at.
Surely, her involvement, must have been embedded in her mind.
As it is so horrid, and now having to reveal to LE, how evil she is, I would have thought there would be far more emotion expressed.
Would she be heavily medicated, here?
We don't see the perhaps 'highly strung, angry' individual.
MOO.
Grrrr she has her lawyer to hide behind. It's not lost on me how they had to tiptoe around certain things, and had to consult her lawyer. So she's not helping the investigation for altruistic reasons. If she was she would willingly help them,and not worry about covering her own backside. just hope whoever is paying for her lawyer goes completely broke,and destitute.
MOO.
 
Random thoughts, some of which are sure to generate hot feelings.

KK has a lot to answer for - and I think she has paid and will continue to pay for what she did. I don't think she was evil to start and I still don't think she was evil. She was hopelessly in love and a perfect storm of events led her step by step down a dreadful path. I think that like JM, she thought (hoped) PF was all talk and no action, that he would 'get over' his nonsense about getting rid of KB.

In her defense...KB was smarter, prettier, didn't have the complicated background with PF that KK did - he was probably KK's first real love, she was always self-conscious about her weight, he pursued her off and on throughout the years, never actually offering her anything but tantalizing hints, she 'rebounded' with him when her marriage was failing, she got pregnant by him and he left her feeling abandoned. By the time she realized that there was no future for them, she was just hoping to get out of the mess without her ex-husband and family and kids finding out what had gone on - and how low she had sunk, driving hundreds of miles for a scrap of 'love' from a guy she couldn't get over.

KB had so much more going on for her than KK, but the two women had something in common - they both got suckered by the same vicious depraved man. It went against KB's beliefs and upbringing to get pregnant by a man she wasn't married or even engaged to - but she did get pregnant, not once but twice, so it was obviously not an accident. She told people at work she was married even though it doesn't even appear that they were ever formally engaged. I doubt she ever expected to be left far from friends and family, a woman unwed to the indifferent father of her child.

KK has lost everything. Prison might actually be easier for her, because then when she came out, she could claim that she had paid her debt to society for what she had done.

PF - there's a piece of work. I appreciate the post above suggesting he's a sociopath. I think that's what I was looking for when I posted earlier that it seemed odd that no one actually came out and said "This dude is not right in the head". That said, he seems to have been able to sucker the ladies.

I have to admit, I get a little satisfaction out of thinking what his last few weeks have been like. He's been sitting in jail for months, knowing he might lose his freedom for years or forever. He's suckered those around him into believing his lies about KB but that might or might not work with a jury. He's probably in a rage about KK - he knows he can't talk to her freely and say the things he likely wants to say. He needs to blame someone for his situation because I think it's clear he has never been held accountable for anything - it's always someone else's fault, those nasty evil women who might take him away from his Ma and the Franch.

So he's sitting there bored out of his mind and stewing and...tada! He strikes up a conversation with a low-level gangbanger-wannabe and in short order, he goes from asking this gangsta boy to arrange a hit on KK to having him take out an extended list of people, some of who have nothing to do with the trial, even adding on things like stealing from JM's 'cash cow' partner to talking about the jobs they'll do together in the future when he gets out. (Pure speculation here: PF was in financial difficulties because cattle prices had allegedly not been favorable. I don't know enough about cattle prices to know if they were really bad or if he was simply a lousy businessman. He ran cattle with his friend JM - perhaps his resentment of JM comes from JM's partner, the 'cash cow' whose money could have tided them over if the cattle market truly was tough.)

What a whiplash of emotions that must have been. From boredom and despondency to euphoria! His problems solved and his future financial independence assured! He shaves his head and he's not just a gangsta-wannabe, he's both customer and order-giver. Keep in mind, this all unfolded in September and October. His new pal gets bonded out in October.

Then time slows down as PF waits for news that his orders have been carried out. He's impatient, but he knows these guys have to set things up, logistics, etc.

More time passes. The trial approaches. PF gets a sinking feeling as there's no word from his ex-con pal and it's clear that his intended victims are alive and well. The trial starts and his worst nightmare - there's KK on the stand, spilling the beans.

And then...a few days before us, but not much - just when PF probably thinks things can't get any worse - PF finds out that his jailhouse buddy not only didn't carry out his orders, his jail house buddy turned on him and the letters are going to come out in court. He still had to sit there (and go back to his cell at night) for several days while the rest of us were out of the loop, knowing what was coming and being powerless to do anything to stop it.

I wonder at what point he finally realized that he probably wasn't walking free, that he will never see the franch again or ride a horse or kick a dog?
Absolutely awesome post!!

I wish I could give it 100 likes!!
 
I guess I'm following many here, as to holes that I still cannot figure out. That said oh, it does not make a difference as to the verdict! It is just more than is needed for a verdict.

One of the questions that I never saw asked by the prosecution, which I would have liked to know from KK, is if he had attempted to clean up any of the blood at all.

When she walked in, did it look like somebody just killed her quickly and walked away, or made an attempt to clean it up?

I recognize that some folks here think that she was killed before he went to Walmart and the bank, and many folks agree with the prosecution that he came back and did it afterwards.

If at the earlier time he killed her before bank, why did he come back to her house for two hours after alibi?

For some reason, I tend to believe the poinsetta picture of them is misleading as to the timeline.

He was still there for a couple of hours.

And KK said that he said he washed his pants at that time. (Although I believe most everything he says is a lie, so only if it's documented will I believe?)

What was he doing there for two hours until~4.30?, I guess we have the explanation by KK that they were getting romantic and doing sniffing of candles. Yet, if she thought she was going to make sweet potatoes, where is evidence of that? I don't even recall sweet potatoes being on a receipt, but that doesn't mean she didn't have them previously.

If she was expecting to be at a dinner, I doubt it would be at the Franch because they would have to leave with a casserole ready at 2 p.m. to be there at 2:30 p.m. when his brother got there.

That was another question that bugged me that wasn't asked him to stand to his brother. Was she expected and did not show? I don't recall the question and answer as to such. If I recall correctly, his brother said they didn't even discuss it. So I guess, since it wasn't discussed, was that she was not even expected.

If she expected as she told her mother I think, they were going somewhere, she would have done some preparation and cooking?

But we only saw/heard the cinnamon rolls from baby K feeding (per testimony, baby K loved cinnamon rolls).

Additionally, as her mother testified when she was missing, that her hair was up and she was not ready to go anywhere presentable from Safeway. That she would never go out to a holiday dinner with her hair up like that. Iirc that was her mother's words not mine.

Okay, I have just pointed out everything that I had questions on as many are doing here now. Back to baking cookies!
I find my self coming back too for answers to the evidence that has holes. I do think the surveillance camera is not exact. It seems that the timestamps are more likely when the neighbor downloaded the images to their iPhone.

PF probably showed up before KB. The images at around 12:37 pm are of him entering with something blue, possibly a sweater or backpack. Could he have had the bat inside the sweater? The image of all three could have happened shortly thereafter. I believe he took the baby so KB could nap for an hour. It seemed that KB was unsure of what the plans were because it depended on what PF wanted to do. She probably wanted to make some sides in case they did end up at the franch. PF seems flaky enough to not give her any solid plans. She was probably guessing. I think PF came home at 1:24pm timestamp and put baby in back room. I think his attack of her started in the loft area and ended up in the living room. I think she tried getting away from him, but couldn't. I think he murdered her close to 2pm, and he did try to wipe up with baby wipes . I don't think he put any effort in it. I think he spent 2 hours cleaning himself in the bathroom and washing his clothes in the washer/dryer. I can't seem tote in any images, but I do see what appears to be her purse in one image around 4:30pm. I do see something of yellow color at his feet while the door is wide open. I think he dragged her out
In a tarp or something. Very risky, but he has proven to be quite inept throughout. I think he was hoping KK would take her to Idaho. She wouldn't, so he had to burn her remains. Of course JMO.
 
Random thoughts, some of which are sure to generate hot feelings.

KK has a lot to answer for - and I think she has paid and will continue to pay for what she did. I don't think she was evil to start and I still don't think she was evil. She was hopelessly in love and a perfect storm of events led her step by step down a dreadful path. I think that like JM, she thought (hoped) PF was all talk and no action, that he would 'get over' his nonsense about getting rid of KB.

In her defense...KB was smarter, prettier, didn't have the complicated background with PF that KK did - he was probably KK's first real love, she was always self-conscious about her weight, he pursued her off and on throughout the years, never actually offering her anything but tantalizing hints, she 'rebounded' with him when her marriage was failing, she got pregnant by him and he left her feeling abandoned. By the time she realized that there was no future for them, she was just hoping to get out of the mess without her ex-husband and family and kids finding out what had gone on - and how low she had sunk, driving hundreds of miles for a scrap of 'love' from a guy she couldn't get over.

KB had so much more going on for her than KK, but the two women had something in common - they both got suckered by the same vicious depraved man. It went against KB's beliefs and upbringing to get pregnant by a man she wasn't married or even engaged to - but she did get pregnant, not once but twice, so it was obviously not an accident. She told people at work she was married even though it doesn't even appear that they were ever formally engaged. I doubt she ever expected to be left far from friends and family, a woman unwed to the indifferent father of her child.

KK has lost everything. Prison might actually be easier for her, because then when she came out, she could claim that she had paid her debt to society for what she had done.

PF - there's a piece of work. I appreciate the post above suggesting he's a sociopath. I think that's what I was looking for when I posted earlier that it seemed odd that no one actually came out and said "This dude is not right in the head". That said, he seems to have been able to sucker the ladies.

I have to admit, I get a little satisfaction out of thinking what his last few weeks have been like. He's been sitting in jail for months, knowing he might lose his freedom for years or forever. He's suckered those around him into believing his lies about KB but that might or might not work with a jury. He's probably in a rage about KK - he knows he can't talk to her freely and say the things he likely wants to say. He needs to blame someone for his situation because I think it's clear he has never been held accountable for anything - it's always someone else's fault, those nasty evil women who might take him away from his Ma and the Franch.

So he's sitting there bored out of his mind and stewing and...tada! He strikes up a conversation with a low-level gangbanger-wannabe and in short order, he goes from asking this gangsta boy to arrange a hit on KK to having him take out an extended list of people, some of who have nothing to do with the trial, even adding on things like stealing from JM's 'cash cow' partner to talking about the jobs they'll do together in the future when he gets out. (Pure speculation here: PF was in financial difficulties because cattle prices had allegedly not been favorable. I don't know enough about cattle prices to know if they were really bad or if he was simply a lousy businessman. He ran cattle with his friend JM - perhaps his resentment of JM comes from JM's partner, the 'cash cow' whose money could have tided them over if the cattle market truly was tough.)

What a whiplash of emotions that must have been. From boredom and despondency to euphoria! His problems solved and his future financial independence assured! He shaves his head and he's not just a gangsta-wannabe, he's both customer and order-giver. Keep in mind, this all unfolded in September and October. His new pal gets bonded out in October.

Then time slows down as PF waits for news that his orders have been carried out. He's impatient, but he knows these guys have to set things up, logistics, etc.

More time passes. The trial approaches. PF gets a sinking feeling as there's no word from his ex-con pal and it's clear that his intended victims are alive and well. The trial starts and his worst nightmare - there's KK on the stand, spilling the beans.

And then...a few days before us, but not much - just when PF probably thinks things can't get any worse - PF finds out that his jailhouse buddy not only didn't carry out his orders, his jail house buddy turned on him and the letters are going to come out in court. He still had to sit there (and go back to his cell at night) for several days while the rest of us were out of the loop, knowing what was coming and being powerless to do anything to stop it.

I wonder at what point he finally realized that he probably wasn't walking free, that he will never see the franch again or ride a horse or kick a dog?

ajaylee, What a great rundown of thoughts and events.:):):)
Possibly how these two have reacted during this horrid case, with certainly their lives, from now on, will be downwards.
 
Yeah, there is NO way KK's lawyer wasn't at every scene, somewhere close by. No way.

This was my very first post after videos were released. IMO, her attorney was not present during the first 5 minutes of this video in KB's condo.

Just getting started watching the videos but want to post this before I forget:

In video "34-1 Walk through at Patrick's" I noted at about 5 min mark that detective stopped KK and told her that investigators didn't want to talk about a comment KK made because of agreement with her attorney.

IMO - KK's plea deal was in negotiated in phases. Prosecutor was not going to sign off prior to going on tour with KK and hearing and/or validating her story.
 
I find my self coming back too for answers to the evidence that has holes. I do think the surveillance camera is not exact. It seems that the timestamps are more likely when the neighbor downloaded the images to their iPhone.

PF probably showed up before KB. The images at around 12:37 pm are of him entering with something blue, possibly a sweater or backpack. Could he have had the bat inside the sweater? The image of all three could have happened shortly thereafter. I believe he took the baby so KB could nap for an hour. It seemed that KB was unsure of what the plans were because it depended on what PF wanted to do. She probably wanted to make some sides in case they did end up at the franch. PF seems flaky enough to not give her any solid plans. She was probably guessing. I think PF came home at 1:24pm timestamp and put baby in back room. I think his attack of her started in the loft area and ended up in the living room. I think she tried getting away from him, but couldn't. I think he murdered her close to 2pm, and he did try to wipe up with baby wipes . I don't think he put any effort in it. I think he spent 2 hours cleaning himself in the bathroom and washing his clothes in the washer/dryer. I can't seem tote in any images, but I do see what appears to be her purse in one image around 4:30pm. I do see something of yellow color at his feet while the door is wide open. I think he dragged her out
In a tarp or something. Very risky, but he has proven to be quite inept throughout. I think he was hoping KK would take her to Idaho. She wouldn't, so he had to burn her remains. Of course JMO.


You touch on something I've wondered about and I don't recall any experts mentioning in testimony.

IIRC, PF washed his clothes at KB's before going home. He must have cleaned his shoes, too, because there apparently was no blood detected outside the condo or in his truck, although he worried he might not have cleaned his shoes well enough.

I wonder how much blood spatter would have gotten on his clothes? I've always assumed the sweater had a dual purpose - as a blindfold and to contain any blood. He was stupid enough to have told KK that a single blow to the back of the head would result in minimal blood loss and instant death. I was surprised when I read that, because as a nurse, KK should at least have known how badly even small scalp wounds bleed.

I'm curious if the blood on his clothes was from the attack itself or from handling KB's body afterwards. I suspect the latter, particularly because I had the impression from his conversation with JM that most of the blood was in his lap area (where KB allegedly laid her head when she got a nosebleed). I can't see the blood from blows landing in his lap area, but I can see him getting blood there when he was trying to lift her body. He's a strong guy, but she was literally dead weight and I think that's where the mess came from.

Doing laundry also answers a couple other questions: what was he doing in the condo for so long and why (as his defense was quick to point out) was there no visible blood evidence in the photos of him coming and going from the condo.
 
Random thoughts, some of which are sure to generate hot feelings.

KK has a lot to answer for - and I think she has paid and will continue to pay for what she did. I don't think she was evil to start and I still don't think she was evil. She was hopelessly in love and a perfect storm of events led her step by step down a dreadful path. I think that like JM, she thought (hoped) PF was all talk and no action, that he would 'get over' his nonsense about getting rid of KB.

In her defense...KB was smarter, prettier, didn't have the complicated background with PF that KK did - he was probably KK's first real love, she was always self-conscious about her weight, he pursued her off and on throughout the years, never actually offering her anything but tantalizing hints, she 'rebounded' with him when her marriage was failing, she got pregnant by him and he left her feeling abandoned. By the time she realized that there was no future for them, she was just hoping to get out of the mess without her ex-husband and family and kids finding out what had gone on - and how low she had sunk, driving hundreds of miles for a scrap of 'love' from a guy she couldn't get over.

KB had so much more going on for her than KK, but the two women had something in common - they both got suckered by the same vicious depraved man. It went against KB's beliefs and upbringing to get pregnant by a man she wasn't married or even engaged to - but she did get pregnant, not once but twice, so it was obviously not an accident. She told people at work she was married even though it doesn't even appear that they were ever formally engaged. I doubt she ever expected to be left far from friends and family, a woman unwed to the indifferent father of her child.

KK has lost everything. Prison might actually be easier for her, because then when she came out, she could claim that she had paid her debt to society for what she had done.

PF - there's a piece of work. I appreciate the post above suggesting he's a sociopath. I think that's what I was looking for when I posted earlier that it seemed odd that no one actually came out and said "This dude is not right in the head". That said, he seems to have been able to sucker the ladies.

I have to admit, I get a little satisfaction out of thinking what his last few weeks have been like. He's been sitting in jail for months, knowing he might lose his freedom for years or forever. He's suckered those around him into believing his lies about KB but that might or might not work with a jury. He's probably in a rage about KK - he knows he can't talk to her freely and say the things he likely wants to say. He needs to blame someone for his situation because I think it's clear he has never been held accountable for anything - it's always someone else's fault, those nasty evil women who might take him away from his Ma and the Franch.

So he's sitting there bored out of his mind and stewing and...tada! He strikes up a conversation with a low-level gangbanger-wannabe and in short order, he goes from asking this gangsta boy to arrange a hit on KK to having him take out an extended list of people, some of who have nothing to do with the trial, even adding on things like stealing from JM's 'cash cow' partner to talking about the jobs they'll do together in the future when he gets out. (Pure speculation here: PF was in financial difficulties because cattle prices had allegedly not been favorable. I don't know enough about cattle prices to know if they were really bad or if he was simply a lousy businessman. He ran cattle with his friend JM - perhaps his resentment of JM comes from JM's partner, the 'cash cow' whose money could have tided them over if the cattle market truly was tough.)

What a whiplash of emotions that must have been. From boredom and despondency to euphoria! His problems solved and his future financial independence assured! He shaves his head and he's not just a gangsta-wannabe, he's both customer and order-giver. Keep in mind, this all unfolded in September and October. His new pal gets bonded out in October.

Then time slows down as PF waits for news that his orders have been carried out. He's impatient, but he knows these guys have to set things up, logistics, etc.

More time passes. The trial approaches. PF gets a sinking feeling as there's no word from his ex-con pal and it's clear that his intended victims are alive and well. The trial starts and his worst nightmare - there's KK on the stand, spilling the beans.

And then...a few days before us, but not much - just when PF probably thinks things can't get any worse - PF finds out that his jailhouse buddy not only didn't carry out his orders, his jail house buddy turned on him and the letters are going to come out in court. He still had to sit there (and go back to his cell at night) for several days while the rest of us were out of the loop, knowing what was coming and being powerless to do anything to stop it.

I wonder at what point he finally realized that he probably wasn't walking free, that he will never see the franch again or ride a horse or kick a dog?
 
But Patrick did tell LE that they were broken up and exchanging Baby K. I remember that.

I think shortly after that was when his father figure made some comment about asking the guy she worked with at DOSS where Kelsey was.
Yes. It was an exchange of custody (lie PF told to LE) and a temporary pick-up to go run errands (what he texted KB). In reality it was a temporary pick-up to make an alibi run. Although the definitions vary according to whom was on the receiving end of PF's lies, the initial pickup of baby K w
But Patrick did tell LE that they were broken up and exchanging Baby K. I remember that.

I think shortly after that was when his father figure made some comment about asking the guy she worked with at DOSS where Kelsey was.
Yes. PF said it was an exchange of custody (lie PF told to LE) and a temporary pick-up to go run errands (lie he texted KB). In reality it was a temporary pick-up to make an alibi run with the baby. Although the definitions vary according to whom was on the receiving end of PF's lies, there was an initial pick-up of baby K.
 
I am not sure that’s the baby. I originally thought it was. I think it’s just movement of his other arm that the camera went wacky on.
I don't know. I see baby K on his left hip in 4:26. I assumed she is also on his hip in shots 4:20, 4:27, and 4:28 as well.

The attached photos are 4:20 (on the Left) compared to the 4:26 (on the Right). IMO it looks like Baby K' s little leg is there in both shots but she's leaning forward in 4:26. But your guess is as good as mine.

20191125_205928.jpg

Photos are from
 
Random thoughts, some of which are sure to generate hot feelings.

KK has a lot to answer for - and I think she has paid and will continue to pay for what she did. I don't think she was evil to start and I still don't think she was evil. She was hopelessly in love and a perfect storm of events led her step by step down a dreadful path. I think that like JM, she thought (hoped) PF was all talk and no action, that he would 'get over' his nonsense about getting rid of KB.

In her defense...KB was smarter, prettier, didn't have the complicated background with PF that KK did - he was probably KK's first real love, she was always self-conscious about her weight, he pursued her off and on throughout the years, never actually offering her anything but tantalizing hints, she 'rebounded' with him when her marriage was failing, she got pregnant by him and he left her feeling abandoned. By the time she realized that there was no future for them, she was just hoping to get out of the mess without her ex-husband and family and kids finding out what had gone on - and how low she had sunk, driving hundreds of miles for a scrap of 'love' from a guy she couldn't get over.

KB had so much more going on for her than KK, but the two women had something in common - they both got suckered by the same vicious depraved man. It went against KB's beliefs and upbringing to get pregnant by a man she wasn't married or even engaged to - but she did get pregnant, not once but twice, so it was obviously not an accident. She told people at work she was married even though it doesn't even appear that they were ever formally engaged. I doubt she ever expected to be left far from friends and family, a woman unwed to the indifferent father of her child.

KK has lost everything. Prison might actually be easier for her, because then when she came out, she could claim that she had paid her debt to society for what she had done.

PF - there's a piece of work. I appreciate the post above suggesting he's a sociopath. I think that's what I was looking for when I posted earlier that it seemed odd that no one actually came out and said "This dude is not right in the head". That said, he seems to have been able to sucker the ladies.

I have to admit, I get a little satisfaction out of thinking what his last few weeks have been like. He's been sitting in jail for months, knowing he might lose his freedom for years or forever. He's suckered those around him into believing his lies about KB but that might or might not work with a jury. He's probably in a rage about KK - he knows he can't talk to her freely and say the things he likely wants to say. He needs to blame someone for his situation because I think it's clear he has never been held accountable for anything - it's always someone else's fault, those nasty evil women who might take him away from his Ma and the Franch.

So he's sitting there bored out of his mind and stewing and...tada! He strikes up a conversation with a low-level gangbanger-wannabe and in short order, he goes from asking this gangsta boy to arrange a hit on KK to having him take out an extended list of people, some of who have nothing to do with the trial, even adding on things like stealing from JM's 'cash cow' partner to talking about the jobs they'll do together in the future when he gets out. (Pure speculation here: PF was in financial difficulties because cattle prices had allegedly not been favorable. I don't know enough about cattle prices to know if they were really bad or if he was simply a lousy businessman. He ran cattle with his friend JM - perhaps his resentment of JM comes from JM's partner, the 'cash cow' whose money could have tided them over if the cattle market truly was tough.)

What a whiplash of emotions that must have been. From boredom and despondency to euphoria! His problems solved and his future financial independence assured! He shaves his head and he's not just a gangsta-wannabe, he's both customer and order-giver. Keep in mind, this all unfolded in September and October. His new pal gets bonded out in October.

Then time slows down as PF waits for news that his orders have been carried out. He's impatient, but he knows these guys have to set things up, logistics, etc.

More time passes. The trial approaches. PF gets a sinking feeling as there's no word from his ex-con pal and it's clear that his intended victims are alive and well. The trial starts and his worst nightmare - there's KK on the stand, spilling the beans.

And then...a few days before us, but not much - just when PF probably thinks things can't get any worse - PF finds out that his jailhouse buddy not only didn't carry out his orders, his jail house buddy turned on him and the letters are going to come out in court. He still had to sit there (and go back to his cell at night) for several days while the rest of us were out of the loop, knowing what was coming and being powerless to do anything to stop it.

I wonder at what point he finally realized that he probably wasn't walking free, that he will never see the franch again or ride a horse or kick a dog?
Adding PF left her in debt up to her eyeballs, he owed her $9000 for a horse and no telling what else she bought him, I will never understand her willing to commit murder for him,but desperate people do desperate things. I do think she will serve time most likely the MAX allowed ( which is lenient) by the law( and she should) hopefully she will learn from what was most likely the worst mistake after mistake of her life.
 
Adding PF left her in debt up to her eyeballs, he owed her $9000 for a horse and no telling what else she bought him, I will never understand her willing to commit murder for him,but desperate people do desperate things. I do think she will serve time most likely the MAX allowed ( which is lenient) by the law( and she should) hopefully she will learn from what was most likely the worst mistake after mistake of her life.

I wonder how long he had been raising cattle? Was that a relatively new venture that he jumped into without knowing what he was doing and got burned? He could get by working as a farrier and raising dogs, but only if he was basically living rent-free on SF's franch.

He didn't seem to think it was a big deal to promise KB that she wouldn't have to work when she came to Colorado and he clearly knew SF wasn't having her at the ranch - he had already arranged a place for her before he helped her move. Then a couple years later, he can't make his loan payment, he can't afford Baby K's medical and he obviously doesn't have free daycare on call and he's in debt to his mistress.

eta: I forgot about his dad's death and the inheritance. Perhaps he made decisions based on what he expected his share of the estate to be and spent money he didn't really have yet.
 
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I wonder how long he had been raising cattle? Was that a relatively new venture that he jumped into without knowing what he was doing and got burned? He could get by working as a farrier and raising dogs, but only if he was basically living rent-free on SF's franch.

He didn't seem to think it was a big deal to promise KB that she wouldn't have to work when she came to Colorado and he clearly knew SF wasn't having her at the ranch - he had already arranged a place for her before he helped her move. Then a couple years later, he can't make his loan payment, he can't afford Baby K's medical and he obviously doesn't have free daycare on call and he's in debt to his mistress.

eta: I forgot about his dad's death and the inheritance. Perhaps he made decisions based on what he expected his share of the estate to be and spent money he didn't really have yet.

Another thought as I'm days into my Frazee detox:

I'd be curious to know how KK paid her part of the combined purchases she and Patrick made....
Cash to him or to the seller?

Since Patrick often traded his farrier work instead of paying cash, he may have pocketed KK's money while trading his time for the horses or whatever.

Patrick seems to have skipped any ethics training so, why not?
 
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