GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[dixiegirl1035]

A general shout out to those individuals who have been doing screenshot of entire pages. You are too numerous to name, but you know who you are. I have not read more than 50 pages of the documents due to RL priorities, I'm only keeping up here.

Thank you to anyone and everyone who has done screenshots! I'm sure we may need more of such when the next document dump comes.

 

[Charlot123]

I write murder mysteries and true crime. I hope to goodness the FBI never gets a hold of my history.

I'm just kind of "meh" about NK. My beef's with CW

I think NK's behaviour is understood if we consider that she wanted to get married and have own family. I was thinking, she had several failed relationships, and SW treated her well, and also, maybe there are not too many good guys around? Not drinking, not using, being smart at least in one area (technical), and in addition to it, good-looking? CW was married, true, but he and SW were on diverging courses anyhow, much earlier, it happens.

The only two things that bother me are, the erased text messages and the advice to pawn the ring. I don't think NK was complicit in the drama, but she might have been guessing something.

Still, all the blame for the killings lies on CW. And I would not be surprised if the thought to kill his family first came to his mind much earlier than he met NK. I think that we shall find no cruelty to animals in his childhood, nothing that would be the predictor. It is unfathomable, but he probably used to be a "nice guy" or "mellow guy", per descriptions, slowly accumulating hatred and rage.

 

[millermills]

Hi guys ! Not sure if this hasn’t been asked and answered - forgive me if so. WIth the civil lawsuit brought against CW by the family of SW - with the small amount being sought- I am assuming is more importantly a way to force a deposition where he will have to be questioned directly. Do the lawyers here know is there away to avoid being deposed and/or since he has already been charged and sentenced could he still have a way to refuse to answer based upon incrimination . Thanks !

 

[Tortoise]

Correct. I’m not sure why a family member would doubt a parents medical concerns regarding their own children. It’s shows complete ignorance imo.

I don't think they did doubt it though, because of the epi-pen. I can only conclude they knew, they took a knowing risk with Cece's life, and they wanted to undermine Shanann and stir up trouble at every opportunity. If they did things like that overtly I can only imagine the bad atmosphere, the looks and stuff unsaid hanging in the air. Shanann was only there for them and her daughters to bond, so she was giving them a gift that they threw back in her face.

MOO

 

[curiouschat]

Hi guys ! Not sure if this hasn’t been asked and answered - forgive me if so. WIth the civil lawsuit brought against CW by the family of SW - with the small amount being sought- I am assuming is more importantly a way to force a deposition where he will have to be questioned directly. Do the lawyers here know is there away to avoid being deposed and/or since he has already been charged and sentenced could he still have a way to refuse to answer based upon incrimination . Thanks !

I am not a lawyer but I don't see how they can make him talk. At this point, what could they threaten him with if he's defying court orders? More life sentences, more solitary confinement? The interview I saw with the DA after seemed to indicate he believed Chris would never really give us answers.

I don't know if this means they can get more answers from other people possibly involved -- aka the mistress?

 

[becrietz]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned previously but during the interrogation after the failed polygraph and before CW confessed I felt that the detective interviewing him put the idea that SW killed the girls in CW head. He asked if SW hurt the girls and even gave examples of when a mother had harmed her children. Up to and even during this CW maintained that SW was a good mom and would never hurt the girls. However immediately after this conversation CW asked to speak with his father and then blamed SW for killing the girls. I was disturbed that this technique was used because of this claim there has been a huge amount of hatred and blame put on SW and I really wonder if it was not for the detective mentioning this to CW that he would have ever used this "excuse".

 

[Charlot123]

Not only did the Rzuceks NOT attack their SIL, they gave him his LIFE by not pursuing the death penalty. Somewhere in my heart, I think they did this because they felt Shannan would have wanted them to.

They did it because of the situation with the death penalty in CO. Our state is not unlike CO, we had death penalty, then we had moratorium on DP imposed by the governor, and recently, our Supreme Court outlawed it. I assume CO is on the same curve regarding death penalty. Practically, even if all members of the jury voted for it, and even this is questionable, it would have been impossible to impose.

 

[Gardener1850]

Chris Watts girlfriend searched for Shanann Watts online nearly a year before the murders and long before her affair with Chris Watts began: Report
Kessinger reportedly offered her phone to investigators, but had deleted all text messages between her and Watts as well as any entry for him in her contacts.

The Phone Data Review examined text messages, voice calls, voicemail messages, and online searches that may have been relevant to the investigation. The first entry in the chronological report that includes data from all three devices is from Kessinger’s phone; it states that Kessinger performed an online search for the name Shanann Watts in September 2017.

CrimeOnline has noted in its review of the extensive documents, which were compiled by multiple law enforcement agencies, a few instances in which a date appears to have been entered incorrectly. The above entry, however, appears to be the only questionable date in the chronological Phone Data Review.

CrimeOnline has reached out to the Greeley Police Department for clarification or confirmation of the information listed in the entry, and has not yet received a response.

Googling SW on Sept 1, 2017.

NK could have seen these videos and photos from August from Shanann's Instagram and facebook:

Aug 6 SW and CW in swimsuits by a pool: Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “You know because we #DUO #thrive”

Aug 8 SW and CW video with CW's parents and Bella and CeCe in downtown Denver: Shanann Watts

Aug 10 video of Bella and CeCe eating Parmesan cheese at a restaurant (CW is heard in background): Shanann Watts

Aug 25 Photo with Bella and the caption:
I love this girl so much! She's such a mamas girl! She came into my room this morning saying she needed me and wanted me. I feel like she senses what I'm feeling and when I'm nervous, sad or worried. I'm having Anterior Cervical Disectomy done Tuesday and they are doing an arthroplasty for my disk on C5-C6 and I'm a little nervous. She has been holding her neck complaining it hurts for weeks! Bella is one special little girl! #ShesCompassionate #Loving #Caring #OldSoul #LoveMyGirls
Shanann Watts

Aug 26 CeCe in a Target shopping cart: Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “It's Saturday and I'm excited! And generous! $100 CASH BACK To the next THREE NEW PROMOTERS that join me with the $200 pack! $200…”

Aug 26 photo of CW with CeCe on his shoulders: Shanann Watts

Aug 26 post of photo Gallery with caption: This what happens when we let Chris watch the girls while we run errands, network and get things done. Girls have their sassiness on full power! Shanann Watts

Aug 27 photo gallery wishing SW's mom Happy Birthday with pics with Chris and the girls: Shanann Watts

Aug 27 reposting of CW singing and Dancing Hot Digity Dog: Shanann Watts

Aug 28 Photo of SW and CW together in their living room with the caption:
Late Dinner Date with my amazing supportive hubby! He rocks and couldn't imagine life without him! #BossCouple #ThrivinCouple #PowerCouple #Forever Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “Late Dinner Date with my amazing supportive hubby! He rocks and couldn't imagine life without him! #BossCouple #ThrivinCouple #PowerCouple…”

Aug 30 post on SW's facebook:
This is Chris, I wanted to let everyone know Shanann's anterior cervical discectomy and Fusion (ACDF) with Arthroplasty implant (aka neck surgery) yesterday went well. She is going to be staying another night. She's in a lot of pain, but she's doing good. She's strong and still trying to help others. Thank you everyone for prayers and checking in on her!

Aug 31 photo gallery of Bella and CeCe with Caption saying she missed her girls and thanking her friends for taking care of them (I assume SW was in the hospital still recovering): Shanann Watts

--------

The next photo on instagram is from Sept 7th of SW in her neck brace after surgery (with CeCe and Bella): Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “I have 3 samples going out today! Are you next? Message me #ThriveExperience #thrive #minithriveexperience #Energy #focus #mentalclarity…”

NK could have known from her Sept 1st google that they had kids by those photos and videos. In August they look like a happy couple/happy family going by their social media. NK may have also been able to find out about SW having surgery-- Chris had access to SW's facebook and posted about it on the 30th. I think the timing of the Sept 1 search and SW's surgery is interesting. You don't need a Facebook or Instagram to see any of the above.

The timing makes me wonder if CW had laid early groundwork for plans to possibly hook up with NK while SW recovered from surgery. I'm not saying their relationship started then but it makes me wonder. Didn't SW's parents come out to CO to help with the girls during this time? I'm not sure if his in laws being in town would have made it easier for CW to claim he was "working extra hours" to pay medical bills or more difficult for him to sneak around. What do you guys think?

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Correct. I’m not sure why a family member would doubt a parents medical concerns regarding their own children. It’s shows complete ignorance imo.

Shan’ann had posted results from having her allergy tested on her FB page, the allergy was confirmed by a doctor. Whether they doubted it or not, it is possible to make the choice to just get along. Removing nuts from your house for a few days is not too much is not too much of an inconvenience. My husband and I were not pleased (understatement) when our daughter moved in with her boyfriend and now husband. We had some very valid concerns, we had one conversation with our daughter which of course did not change anything. We have never broached the subject again. We had to make a conscious decision to like him. They have been married 4 years, he is the father of our 2 adorable grandchildren, we treat him with kindness and respect.

 

[AbbyG]

I understand we are to treat NK as a victim. However, on the last thread someone posted an interview with The DA in this case. He said specifically he only used a portion of the evidence in this case during the sentencing. I believe when everything comes out it will be revealed that the affair between NK and CW began months before she claims and that she gave him an ultimatum, it was her or his family. It will be ugly.

I agree it likely started earlier and was far more intense than NK has let on, however I don't think she needed to give him an ultimatum. I think Monster Watts was utterly intoxicated. He was going to have her and be with her no matter what. He wanted a "clean" slate, a do-over, a "fresh start" as the DA said. His wife and children needed to be discarded so that he could still be perceived as "a good guy." Obviously he had no problem hurting his wife in private, causing her tremendous mental anguish with his coldness -- he had been tormenting her for over a month and not even giving her a desperately needed hug, which is something any human would do for an acquaintance not to mention your mate of many years and pregnant mom of your kids! A neighbor also reported that he frequently heard him shouting at Shan'ann. But the selfish prick cold monster CW would not step out of his own needs to give his pregnant wife a but of comfort. No, I do not believe he needed an ultimatum from his mistress; I believe he did away with his family with cold, calculated premeditation to, ironically, come off as the good guy while still getting to be with his new girlfriend. Leaving a pregnant wife and two small children was never going to work with his "good guy" mask, a mask that was desperately important to him. I think NK did not give an ultimatum, but did enjoy the intensity of the relationship, did ramp it up fast -- Amber Frey was completely innocent and unwitting unlike NK, but similarly dove head first into a relationship with a man she in reality barely knew. Both women were ready to marry these men, it seems, and equated a highly sexual relationship with lifelong intimacy. MOO

 

[AbbyG]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned previously but during the interrogation after the failed polygraph and before CW confessed I felt that the detective interviewing him put the idea that SW killed the girls in CW head. He asked if SW hurt the girls and even gave examples of when a mother had harmed her children. Up to and even during this CW maintained that SW was a good mom and would never hurt the girls. However immediately after this conversation CW asked to speak with his father and then blamed SW for killing the girls. I was disturbed that this technique was used because of this claim there has been a huge amount of hatred and blame put on SW and I really wonder if it was not for the detective mentioning this to CW that he would have ever used this "excuse".

This has been mentioned and agreed the technique is what put it in CW's head, but the interrogator really wanted at least a partial confession and wanted CW to tell them where to find the babies. I think he needed that kind of out to confess at all. MOO

 

[Mellowmelly]

This has been mentioned and agreed the technique is what put it in CW's head, but the interrogator really wanted at least a partial confession and wanted CW to tell them where to find the babies. I think he needed that kind of out to confess at all. MOO

I agree it was put in his head, he was too dumb to even come up with that scenario on his own. I understand why they approached it like that also.

 

[BobLive]

Mama Watts only talked about CW's 5-17 yrs, where he was into sports, this question was asked of her though by the reporter, if CW played sport. IIRC, there was no mention of the 18-25 age range from Mama Watts.
CW's former roommate and college friend, Richard Hodges, speaks about the 17-19 yr age where they shared a room until 2004 and he last spoke to CW in 2005. So between 19 -25, I don't know where CW lived, we can only presume it was back home.
CNN.com - Transcripts

Cindy mentioned briefly that they made it possible for him to attend NASCAR Institute after he was graduated from high school. Remember she said he always loved cars and went to NASCAR races with his dad? She said he got a job at a Ford dealership in Moorsville right after he finished the certificate program. She described him as very happy and even started buying his own tools!

 

[Mellowmelly]

I agree it likely started earlier and was far more intense than NK has let on, however I don't think she needed to give him an ultimatum. I think Monster Watts was utterly intoxicated. He was going to have her and be with her no matter what. He wanted a "clean" slate, a do-over, a "fresh start" as the DA said. His wife and children needed to be discarded so that he could still be perceived as "a good guy." Obviously he had no problem hurting his wife in private, causing her tremendous mental anguish with his coldness -- he had been tormenting her for over a month and not even giving her a desperately needed hug, which is something any human would do for an acquaintance not to mention your mate of many years and pregnant mom of your kids! A neighbor also reported that he frequently heard him shouting at Shan'ann. But the selfish prick cold monster CW would not step out of his own needs to give his pregnant wife a but of comfort. No, I do not believe he needed an ultimatum from his mistress; I believe he did away with his family with cold, calculated premeditation to, ironically, come off as the good guy while still getting to be with his new girlfriend. Leaving a pregnant wife and two small children was never going to work with his "good guy" mask, a mask that was desperately important to him. I think NK did not give an ultimatum, but did enjoy the intensity of the relationship, did ramp it up fast -- Amber Frey was completely innocent and unwitting unlike NK, but similarly dove head first into a relationship with a man she in reality barely knew. Both women were ready to marry these men, it seems, and equated a highly sexual relationship with lifelong intimacy. MOO

Completely agree, so so cold. He didn’t feel enough for her to give her a hug, even if it was just because he felt guilty about betraying her. He reminds me so much of my child’s “dad”.

 

[curiouschat]

I don't think they did doubt it though, because of the epi-pen. I can only conclude they knew, they took a knowing risk with Cece's life, and they wanted to undermine Shanann and stir up trouble at every opportunity. If they did things like that overtly I can only imagine the bad atmosphere, the looks and stuff unsaid hanging in the air. Shanann was only there for them and her daughters to bond, so she was giving them a gift that they threw back in her face.

MOO

I may be giving them way too much benefit of the doubt but I just don't feel safe concluding they /wanted/ or expected to hurt Cece with the peanuts. I see it as a more older generation stubbornly dismissing all the “newfangled allergies”. I'm willing to admit Cindy may have been way more sinister about it but honestly when I read the history between them and Shanann I can see how compared to their seemingly quiet and mellow son (and yes he had something going on under the surface I'm not saying he was just a quiet mellow guy) Shanann could have seemed a bit intense and particular.


I've wondered what the cross contamination at the engagement party actually entailed. I honestly can see how from their viewpoint she was blowing up on them and calling them evil when they weren't intending malice (though maybe they were and I'm way off?).


I do agree though, damn, they barely got to see their grandkids even if they absolutely think it's foolish and she was out there with her food demands just do what you can to make peace. It's not how I would have done things. I just think it's tragic for /everyone/ and don't feel good about ripping apart one set of grieving grandparents. Though I may very well be giving them too much credit because the whole case is mind boggling to me.

 

[Charlot123]

Googling SW on Sept 1, 2017.

NK could have seen these videos and photos from August from Shanann's Instagram and facebook:

Aug 6 SW and CW in swimsuits by a pool: Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “You know because we #DUO #thrive”

Aug 8 SW and CW video with CW's parents and Bella and CeCe in downtown Denver: Shanann Watts

Aug 10 video of Bella and CeCe eating Parmesan cheese at a restaurant (CW is heard in background): Shanann Watts

Aug 25 Photo with Bella and the caption:
I love this girl so much! She's such a mamas girl! She came into my room this morning saying she needed me and wanted me. I feel like she senses what I'm feeling and when I'm nervous, sad or worried. I'm having Anterior Cervical Disectomy done Tuesday and they are doing an arthroplasty for my disk on C5-C6 and I'm a little nervous. She has been holding her neck complaining it hurts for weeks! Bella is one special little girl! #ShesCompassionate #Loving #Caring #OldSoul #LoveMyGirls
Shanann Watts

Aug 26 CeCe in a Target shopping cart: Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “It's Saturday and I'm excited! And generous! $100 CASH BACK To the next THREE NEW PROMOTERS that join me with the $200 pack! $200…”

Aug 26 photo of CW with CeCe on his shoulders: Shanann Watts

Aug 26 post of photo Gallery with caption: This what happens when we let Chris watch the girls while we run errands, network and get things done. Girls have their sassiness on full power! Shanann Watts

Aug 27 photo gallery wishing SW's mom Happy Birthday with pics with Chris and the girls: Shanann Watts

Aug 27 reposting of CW singing and Dancing Hot Digity Dog: Shanann Watts

Aug 28 Photo of SW and CW together in their living room with the caption:
Late Dinner Date with my amazing supportive hubby! He rocks and couldn't imagine life without him! #BossCouple #ThrivinCouple #PowerCouple #Forever Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “Late Dinner Date with my amazing supportive hubby! He rocks and couldn't imagine life without him! #BossCouple #ThrivinCouple #PowerCouple…”

Aug 30 post on SW's facebook:
This is Chris, I wanted to let everyone know Shanann's anterior cervical discectomy and Fusion (ACDF) with Arthroplasty implant (aka neck surgery) yesterday went well. She is going to be staying another night. She's in a lot of pain, but she's doing good. She's strong and still trying to help others. Thank you everyone for prayers and checking in on her!

Aug 31 photo gallery of Bella and CeCe with Caption saying she missed her girls and thanking her friends for taking care of them (I assume SW was in the hospital still recovering): Shanann Watts

--------

The next photo on instagram is from Sept 7th of SW in her neck brace after surgery (with CeCe and Bella): Thrive Healthy Fit Mom on Instagram: “I have 3 samples going out today! Are you next? Message me #ThriveExperience #thrive #minithriveexperience #Energy #focus #mentalclarity…”

NK could have known from her Sept 1st google that they had kids by those photos and videos. In August they look like a happy couple/happy family going by their social media. NK may have also been able to find out about SW having surgery-- Chris had access to SW's facebook and posted about it on the 30th. I think the timing of the Sept 1 search and SW's surgery is interesting. You don't need a Facebook or Instagram to see any of the above.

The timing makes me wonder if CW had laid early groundwork for plans to possibly hook up with NK while SW recovered from surgery. I'm not saying their relationship started then but it makes me wonder. Didn't SW's parents come out to CO to help with the girls during this time? I'm not sure if his in laws being in town would have made it easier for CW to claim he was "working extra hours" to pay medical bills or more difficult for him to sneak around. What do you guys think?

But NK did not even work with CW at that time. If he hooked up with her sooner, why the third kid with SW?

Of course, they might have met accidentally, and then she got interested in his family, or perhaps it was unrelated to CW at all?

I am thinking under what circumstances I would be sleuthing an unknown person. One of the answers is, if she is not unlike me in looks, but dresses much better, I'd probably try to copy her style.

Or maybe Thrive is popular in CO?

 

[kkdj]

Correct. I’m not sure why a family member would doubt a parents medical concerns regarding their own children. It’s shows complete ignorance imo.

... and disregard and lack of love.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I think NK's behaviour is understood if we consider that she wanted to get married and have own family. I was thinking, she had several failed relationships, and SW treated her well, and also, maybe there are not too many good guys around? Not drinking, not using, being smart at least in one area (technical), and in addition to it, good-looking? CW was married, true, but he and SW were on diverging courses anyhow, much earlier, it happens.

The only two things that bother me are, the erased text messages and the advice to pawn the ring. I don't think NK was complicit in the drama, but she might have been guessing something.

Still, all the blame for the killings lies on CW. And I would not be surprised if the thought to kill his family first came to his mind much earlier than he met NK. I think that we shall find no cruelty to animals in his childhood, nothing that would be the predictor. It is unfathomable, but he probably used to be a "nice guy" or "mellow guy", per descriptions, slowly accumulating hatred and rage.

I doubt we find past incidents of cruelty to animals in his past. Those type of perps get pleasure out of killing, they have a different motivation. Other FA’s do not have distubing pasts, no violence. It was my understsnding that prior to Shan’ann leaving for the summer things were good. Chris said in one of his LE interviews that he fell out of love with Shan’ann because he fell in love with NK. Yes, they had stresses before NK, but I really do not think they were having a troubled marriage.

 

[Tortoise]

Agreed.



Agreed - my argument was reductio ad absurdum

All of us have narcissistic tendencies and sociopaths are quite likely to display unhealthy levels

But I just don't see with CW that the kind of self delusion was dominant with what we know about him.

What is interesting about SWs text messages is that from her expressed view, CW doesn't appear to have displayed any kind of erratic behaviour until the final weeks

Personally i see him more as a well hidden sociopath whose family simply got in the way once he found a new life for himself

What I do think is that his sociopathy will have been exhibited in other ways prior to that summer - but that seems to be well hidden?

The only real "tells" we have are

1. The stuff with his mother
2. Likely Tinder affairs
3. His badmouthing of SW to friends etc

BBM I see it in spades. In the porch interviews and all through his interview with detectives. In fact even in his audacious planning of murder in preference to divorce which will ruin his image. That is thinking one is invincible is it not? A smile playing on his lips, thinking he could deceive everyone, thinking friends were so impressed by him that he could even bring up the topic of selling his house and eat pizza and not have to worry that they would see him as not behaving appropriately. It doesn't come across to me as bravado, but true arrogance.

MOO

 

[Gardener1850]

But NK did not even work with CW at that time. If he hooked up with her sooner, why the third kid with SW?

Of course, they might have met accidentally, and then she got interested in his family, or perhaps it was unrelated to CW at all?

I am thinking under what circumstances I would be sleuthing an unknown person. One of the answers is, if she is not unlike me in looks, but dresses much better, I'd probably try to copy her style.

Or maybe Thrive is popular in CO?

How do you know she didn't work with him at that time? Actually, don't answer that unless it's in the documents or the MSM. Because I think it might be considered sleuthing her and against the rules. I'm not aware of when she started working at CW's job. If she didn't work with CW but was googling SW and CW for some reason in Sept 2017 then it makes me think she may have gotten her job due to CW recommending her. She said she never met SW. The timing is just way to coincidental for me-- SW was in the hospital at least 2 days recovering from surgery and CW's future mistress is googling her name a day after that?