Crime Scene Animation by Websleuths Member grayhuze

[grayhuze]

Actually JM argued in an evidentiary hearing (August 7, 2009) that the gunshot was first (page 2, second paragraph), he didn't change his sequence theory until late 2012, a month or two before trial began, here's a minute entry ruling in favor of the especially cruel factor for his notice of intent to seek the death penalty:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3846408.pdf

thanks, I knew that was after she went with self defense but didn't have it exactly in my head. So what made them change the sequence until such a late date? Facts are the facts before that right "we believe the gunshot was first" -Flores 48 hour special. Who is we? Why wasn't that corrected in the news right after that? or anytime in the next 4 years?

 

[grayhuze]

I have plenty of thoughts on the sequence lol but I'll start with a few on the top of my head, I do not believe that is her socked foot in 5:32:16, if you look near the bottom of this crop, you can see her bare foot moving left to right and then upward (arrows):

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These two pics don't seem to be in your gunshot-first recreation, in the first you can see him getting into a sitting position (5:28:54):

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And this is before the full face pic (5:29:12):

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Also, you mention the water droplets are on the camera lens in 5:25:00 but there are no droplets on any of the rest of the pics, when did she wipe it off between pics and on what? There's also some confusion about some of the pics showing his back facing the camera, while JM was showing them that day in court it seems he put the same pic up more than once and stated a different time for it, it's dark and the time stamp doesn't show so no real idea where it came in the actual sequence (I have it as 5:26:56):

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I'll post some more in a bit after I get through the rest of the thread. I do like your work though just not wholly in agreement on some areas.

looks like we did the same thing after viewing that image with all the thumnails on it.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think the gun jammed. Those small .25 caliber pistols jam easily http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=485. Jodi had no training and would not know how to clear the jamm. Also, I would ask why she staged a robbery of the gun only to use a knife first? There was also a moment where Travis stood at the sink. I think at that moment he though Jodi left but soon returned with the knife to attack him at the sink. I have an unfinished animation of that. Minus Jodi. http://youtu.be/yrBgUWHuAto

Knowing what I know of JA now, I believe that she planned this killing and wanted to hurt him. I think that she planned to stab him and that was her main desire. TO slice and stab him as she did. A lot of people can shoot someone but stabbing someone is personal and IMO more depraved. I think that she planned his death and only had the gun to subdue him. I believe she used it at the end to make sure he was really dead.

 

[geevee]

I have both of those, but clearer versions. I didn't put them in because I found them later.

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What I did was take screen shots as Juan moved the photos around to construct larger images than previously shown.
You did the same thing in that first image above.

The second pic you show is a different picture than the one I mentioned (5:26:56), this is the one I meant:



It was very hard to get a decent pic of your first pic above, it was never still on the projector when the camera got a shot of it, to me it looks like he banged his nose and mouth on his knee in the process, causing the trickle of blood from one nostril and raised/scraped lip in the full face shot. Of course there was time between pics for her to have hit him but no red mark on his face to make that as likely. He does seem to move into the sitting position very quickly though so I think she was yelling/threatening him at that point.

 

[geevee]

looks like we did the same thing after viewing that image with all the thumnails on it.

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Oh thanks, I was posting when you put this up, I can see the time stamp now, thanks for that.

 

[geevee]

thanks, I knew that was after she went with self defense but didn't have it exactly in my head. So what made them change the sequence until such a late date? Facts are the facts before that right "we believe the gunshot was first" -Flores 48 hour special. Who is we? Why wasn't that corrected in the news right after that? or anytime in the next 4 years?

I don't know why prosecution changed their theory about which came first, it did seem late in the game and actually gunshot first would make the crime even more egregious since she would have been attacking a wounded and defenseless man with a knife - no self defense foggy theory in the world is going to make that seem less cruel.

I can see both sides of gunshot first or last theories but one of the main reasons I lean towards last is the blood in the hallway, I just have a hard time reconciling Travis being shot and then stabbed numerous times and making it down the hallway to the bedroom carpet under his own power.

I also think she wove small bits of truth into her stories and believe when she said (in the ninja story) that Travis said he couldn't feel his legs, I think he did say that, but I don't know if that would be due to a gunshot or the deep knife wound to the chest. I can't find a place where the blood matches up and she also had the angle to deliver that wound in the bathroom area but it along with the gunshot makes it hard for me to believe he got to the bedroom, even crawling.

 

[LinasK]

looks like we did the same thing after viewing that image with all the thumnails on it.

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5:27:28 is the picture that I was talking about that is missing from your timeline with the white jaggy lines coming down across his shoulder. This is when I believe Jodi stun gunned him.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Thanks for sharing your videos. I tend to be an agnostic when it comes to the gun-or-knife first issue, but there are a few points that have always kept my mind open to the idea that the gun was first -

One was what you mentioned, Gray. Like you, I never found the bullet casing sitting on top of blood as any sort of definitive proof as to when the bullet casing entered the scene (earlier/later in the murder). Like you said, there was so much chaos in that room, I can easily visualize it getting kicked across the floor multiple times and not having blood on it.

Another detail is that IIRC, the knife wound in the center of his chest was at a slight upward angle. Given the way he was sitting in the shower, with his arms resting up on his legs, I was never able to visualize how she could have got a knife into the center of his chest while he was in the shower, let alone how this wound would have been at an upward angle, given that she would have been on her feet, and at a minimum, slightly above him.

Last, I've read of cases of people being shot in the head and then functioning to varying degrees. In one case, a woman was shot by someone standing directly in front of her, so the bullet entered her face, and she was able to run to a neighbor's house and pound on the door for help. I realize that the location of the bullet in the head is key to how the injury will affect someone, but the argument that he had to be immobilized by a bullet in the head was not enough in and of itself to convince me of that.

 

[lonetraveler]

Very interesting. Makes sense that you would not bring a knife to a planned shooting. I too think that Jodi thought that the one shot would kill him and had to retrieve the knife to finish him off. I've often wondered if she only had one bullet in the pistol because I can't justify any other reason as to why she didn't just shoot him again.

 

[lonetraveler]

I don't know why prosecution changed their theory about which came first, it did seem late in the game and actually gunshot first would make the crime even more egregious since she would have been attacking a wounded and defenseless man with a knife - no self defense foggy theory in the world is going to make that seem less cruel.

I can see both sides of gunshot first or last theories but one of the main reasons I lean towards last is the blood in the hallway, I just have a hard time reconciling Travis being shot and then stabbed numerous times and making it down the hallway to the bedroom carpet under his own power.

I also think she wove small bits of truth into her stories and believe when she said (in the ninja story) that Travis said he couldn't feel his legs, I think he did say that, but I don't know if that would be due to a gunshot or the deep knife wound to the chest. I can't find a place where the blood matches up and she also had the angle to deliver that wound in the bathroom area but it along with the gunshot makes it hard for me to believe he got to the bedroom, even crawling.

With the gun shot first scenario I can visualize Jodi stabbing him in the chest as he was using his arms to get to his feet, therefore exposing his chest and not being able to defend himself.

 

[tweezybird]

grayhuze, thanks for adding so much to this conversation. I've bounced back and forth between gunshot first or last, however looking at your video I can see the gunshot happening first. Gun jams, misfires, whatever, he starts crawling out of the shower while she goes and gets a knife. Spent shell on blood never impressed me either way. I've always thought it could have gotten kicked around in any number of scenarios.

 

[geevee]

Same here, I don't find the location of the shell casing compelling as to either sequence, it's near grout and could have been kicked there during the melee and blood/water filled the grout line after she drug him back to the shower area and it wouldn't have blood anywhere but the bottom where it rested. I don't think it was kicked there by a roommate when Travis was discovered as I think the blood would be too dry for it to stick but there are plenty of other ways for it to have gotten where it was.

 

[cindymac]

well I disagree with you. There are many instances of people not being immediately incapacitated after being shot in the head, even the brain. Kevin Horn even said "I think I said right here that he wouldn't have been immediately incapacitated" Then he looked at Juan and then changed it back. unfortunately that utterance matches up with the 3 times that Horn told Flores that he would not have been incapacitated. The gunshot first theory was even put in the 48 hour special and then continued on for over a year after that. surely Juan or Horn would have refuted that after the special. they didn't. the reason is because after Jodi went with self defense the sequencing became important and they wanted a counter argument to Jodi. The bullet casing on blood is actually meaningless other than saying there was a pool of blood and the bullet shell at one point landed on it. It does not prove the sequencing one bit. The bullet could have easily been kicked at a later point given the activities in that bathroom and the non smooth floor. even the friends that found the body could have kicked it. I think it's funny how that one thing seals the deal for a lot of people but in actuality is a very weak piece of evidence. I found it odd that the only thing the blood spatter expert seemed absolutely certain about was that. She stated it as fact that the bullet had to have been fired after the knife wounds merely because the shell casing was on top of blood. That just isn't true and it fit the larger narrative of the switching of the sequencing for strategic reasons. yeah...I don't buy the stun gun stuff at all. smoke and mirrors. Oh and Gabby gifford had a massive brain injury and Travis did not.

BBM

Great videos - very talented. However, I entirely disagree with the gunshot first theory - but hopefully you'll accept my comments as an alternate view in the spirit of debate rather than an attack of any kind.

Firstly, I disagree that there are "many instances" where gunshots to the head are not immediately incapacitating. What evidence/data do you have that supports this?

Additionally, the incapacitating effect of a bullet passing through the brain is not really open to debate. Notably, gases creating a large expansile cavity along its path, many times the size of the bullet, generating massive shock waves throughout the brain, with consequent damage compounded by immediate blood loss and brain swelling.

As LinasK pointed out, Gabrielle Giffords is a case in point, in terms of her immediate collapse, and she was one the rare few who survive. 90% of gunshots to the head are fatal, with most dying immediately or before they reach the ER. Couple of quick links:
https://www.columbianeurosurgery.org/conditions/cranial-gunshot-wounds/
http://www.aans.org/Patient Information/Conditions and Treatments/Gunshot Wound Head Trauma.aspx

So statistically, let alone scientifically, the odds are extremely low to zero that Travis was not almost immediately incapacitated.

 

[grayhuze]

well, I guess that is where we differ. I don't see it as hard to believe at all that a man, not incapacitated by a bullet and bleeding but not dead from various stab wounds making one last attempt to leave the bedroom. Jodi could not let that happen and is why she tackled him near the carpet area and hen finished him off with the neck wound where Travis bled out. People, when fighting to live can do pretty amazing things. I just watched a show on ID tv where the father was shot in the head and got on his snow mobile to chase the men who had also taken his two daughters. Many many examples of people still conscious after being shot in the head and even the brain. Horn said he knows of no examples of that. I find that hard to believe as well. I have seen and heard many examples prior to this case. I believe, he was shot in the shower. It was like when a boxer get hit in the head and goes down but they are not completely out. He is groggy and comes out of the shower. the gun jammed. So now Jodi had to kill Travis using other methods. I believe travis crawled on all fours towards the toilet and jodi kicked him in the head or hit him in some way to create the contact blood spatter on the toilet door frame low. He then spit blood up creating the large pool in front of the toilet. Travis was still on all fours and she attacked him again by the scales. She then knew she need to get a knife. I think she ran down the stairs and Travis still in shock thought she had left and made his way to the sink, spitting up blood (aspirated) and (passive)drops. It would take about 12 to 15 seconds to run down the hall get the knife from the kitchen and return. It's only 60 feet or so round trip. he was looking at his face, in shock and observing his wound. then Jodi returned with the knife and stabbed from the side perhaps creating the nipple slice then he turned and blocked a few stabs with his hands but she got a stab to the vena cava in and then travis went down again bleeding and caughing. Perhaps this is when the head stabs happened. Then Travis, in flight or fight got up and made one last attempt to flee. Jodi tackles him near the end of the hall creating the swipe on the wall, she sat on his lower back and he was still alive and stabbed him 8 times with the left hand and once with the right. Then she pulled his head back and slit his throat. She then turned him over and dragged him back down the hall at some point feet first.

 

[grayhuze]

BBM

Great videos - very talented. However, I entirely disagree with the gunshot first theory - but hopefully you'll accept my comments as an alternate view in the spirit of debate rather than an attack of any kind.

Firstly, I disagree that there are "many instances" where gunshots to the head are not immediately incapacitating. What evidence/data do you have that supports this?

Additionally, the incapacitating effect of a bullet passing through the brain is not really open to debate. Notably, gases creating a large expansile cavity along its path, many times the size of the bullet, generating massive shock waves throughout the brain, with consequent damage compounded by immediate blood loss and brain swelling.

As LinasK pointed out, Gabrielle Giffords is a case in point, in terms of her immediate collapse, and she was one the rare few who survive. 90% of gunshots to the head are fatal, with most dying immediately or before they reach the ER. Couple of quick links:
https://www.columbianeurosurgery.org/conditions/cranial-gunshot-wounds/
http://www.aans.org/Patient Information/Conditions and Treatments/Gunshot Wound Head Trauma.aspx

So statistically, let alone scientifically, the odds are extremely low to zero that Travis was not almost immediately incapacitated.

well when you say it's not open to debate that means it is open to debate. I have heard this shockwave thing a million times and people are not always immediately incapacitate even when a bullet his part of their brain. It all depends on what part of the brain, the caliber etc. So to say it's not open for debate is just inaccurate. Gabby gifford is not a good comparison because she was shot with a more powerful gun and in a completely different portion of the brain. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8664147. The gun and bullet used to shoot travis was very weak and I think if it even hit the brain, it barely hit it. It's obvious by the trajectory which I have show above. I disagree with you, but two each His/her own.

 

[grayhuze]

Same here, I don't find the location of the shell casing compelling as to either sequence, it's near grout and could have been kicked there during the melee and blood/water filled the grout line after she drug him back to the shower area and it wouldn't have blood anywhere but the bottom where it rested. I don't think it was kicked there by a roommate when Travis was discovered as I think the blood would be too dry for it to stick but there are plenty of other ways for it to have gotten where it was.

so, this image means the gunshot was last? Very shaky evidence.

 

[cindymac]

I can buy that if the bullet really did graze the brain that the dura mater would have been hit and he made a typo. But isn't that pretty incredible? if you looke at the bullet angle, that I created that matches exactly the x-rays then you can see how the trajectory misses the brain, but lets say it may have grazed it, it barely would have hit it. Thus Travis would not have been immediately incapacitated. The serial cross sections shows no bullet tracks and yes, were mildly decomposed, which the term "somewhat" means. the brain was not liquid as horn originally said, then when questioned about doing cross sections, he seemed to not remember he did that and then said...oh..well then it wasn't liquid, it was a pudding. See, all the mistakes and corrections help the knife first theory. I have read that the dura mater is thick...let me check.....yep. Dura mater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura_mater
Wikipedia
Dura mater or dura, is a thick membrane that is the outermost of the three layers of the meninges that surround the brain and spinal cord. It is derived from ...

There's nothing "incredible" about a typo - it's human error; the omission of a single word. Furthermore, it's an obvious typo by virtue of the fact that there's a hole in the skull. It's impossible for something to pass through the skull without also passing through the dura mater.

The trajectory - and suggestion that it missed the brain - is purely speculative. There's no evidence (available to you or I, at least) that the bullet entered the skull at the angle shown in your video. For all we know, it entered straight on, deep into the frontal lobe, and weaved it's way across to its end point. It's also somewhat speculative to claim that the brain was "mildly" decomposed, based on Dr. Horn's use of the word "somewhat". We're not acquainted with what this might mean in Dr. Horn's line of work - "somewhat" compared to... what?

I also think that what may appear to you to be "mistakes and corrections" are simply reflective of an ME who is not as adept as he could or should be at expressing what exactly he means the first time around.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

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so, this image means the gunshot was last? Very shaky evidence.

It helps my conclusion. I think she shot him after all the work was done. The stabbing and slashing. She then shoots him last to make sure he is dead and the casing landed there and stuck in the blood.

 

[cindymac]

well when you say it's not open to debate that means it is open to debate. I have heard this shockwave thing a million times and people are not always immediately incapacitate even when a bullet his part of their brain. It all depends on what part of the brain, the caliber etc. So to say it's not open for debate is just inaccurate. Gabby gifford is not a good comparison because she was shot with a more powerful gun and in a completely different portion of the brain. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8664147. The gun and bullet used to shoot travis was very weak and I think if it even hit the brain, it barely hit it. It's obvious by the trajectory which I have show above. I disagree with you, but two each His/her own.

Your link doesn't support your assertion. It cites 53 case reports "in the last century", with no details of of what :sustained capability means", and is preceded by the following statement: "... penetrating gunshot wounds of the head commonly result in immediate incapacitation..."

You are quite right to say that a major factor in Gifford's survival was the back-to-front bullet path. By comparison, the sideways direction of Travis' injury would reduce his likelihood of survival. And it remains the case that she was incapacitated, and is one of just 10% or so who survive a gunshot to the head - compared to the 90% who die, regardless of caliber. As I said previously, caliber has little bearing on incapacitating effects, because the resulting cavity are shock waves are nonetheless large, and devastating. What's more, "weaker" bullets are more prone to "wobble", giving them the capacity to create greater damage than one with enough energy to pass clean through.

There's no question that the bullet entered the brain - once it's passed through the frontal skull there's nowhere else for it to go.

 

[Smarty Jones]

well, I guess that is where we differ. I don't see it as hard to believe at all that a man, not incapacitated by a bullet and bleeding but not dead from various stab wounds making one last attempt to leave the bedroom. Jodi could not let that happen and is why she tackled him near the carpet area and hen finished him off with the neck wound where Travis bled out. People, when fighting to live can do pretty amazing things. I just watched a show on ID tv where the father was shot in the head and got on his snow mobile to chase the men who had also taken his two daughters. Many many examples of people still conscious after being shot in the head and even the brain. Horn said he knows of no examples of that. I find that hard to believe as well. I have seen and heard many examples prior to this case. I believe, he was shot in the shower. It was like when a boxer get hit in the head and goes down but they are not completely out. He is groggy and comes out of the shower. the gun jammed. So now Jodi had to kill Travis using other methods. I believe travis crawled on all fours towards the toilet and jodi kicked him in the head or hit him in some way to create the contact blood spatter on the toilet door frame low. He then spit blood up creating the large pool in front of the toilet. Travis was still on all fours and she attacked him again by the scales. She then knew she need to get a knife. I think she ran down the stairs and Travis still in shock thought she had left and made his way to the sink, spitting up blood (aspirated) and (passive)drops. It would take about 12 to 15 seconds to run down the hall get the knife from the kitchen and return. It's only 60 feet or so round trip. he was looking at his face, in shock and observing his wound. then Jodi returned with the knife and stabbed from the side perhaps creating the nipple slice then he turned and blocked a few stabs with his hands but she got a stab to the vena cava in and then travis went down again bleeding and caughing. Perhaps this is when the head stabs happened. Then Travis, in flight or fight got up and made one last attempt to flee. Jodi tackles him near the end of the hall creating the swipe on the wall, she sat on his lower back and he was still alive and stabbed him 8 times with the left hand and once with the right. Then she pulled his head back and slit his throat. She then turned him over and dragged him back down the hall at some point feet first.
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BBM: I saw that same episode, crazy! IMO Travis was shot first - I can't think of any other scenario that puts him over the sink with the amount/pattern of the blood. However, I think that's where Jodi started stabbing/slashing him in the shoulders. I think she had the knife at hand. Your re-enactments are thought provoking. :thinking: