Darlie Routier asks for DNA testing

[Goody]

No, the fifth circuit is not the supreme court. You're right that the Supreme Court doesn't need to hear the case.

So what the heck is the fifth circuit. Let me guess... the fifth circuit court of appeals. That would be federal????

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

Ok, I popped in here and saw there was a hearing, and was interested in what the latest scoop was.....What I find in the multi page thread is:
1. General Descriptions of people in the courtroom and guesses as to who they are
2. An argument about who is good looking and who isn't
3. An argument about the Space Shuttle
4. An argument about whether Snooty Vixen is or isn't Jeff.... and I pretty much said "screw it" after that.....

So....does anyone have any info? Why would there be any hesitations about a DNA test on Darin's jeans? I can't see why either side wouldn't want to know the results of that.

Dasgal,
I have missed you too. I remember you from the olden days of websleuthing. LOL
From my understanding they are requesting to test these things.
They are the limb hair found on the sock, the pubic hair for further breakdown analysis, the shirt, and a couple of other items. Mama Darlie wasn't too specific about it.

:truce:

 

[Goody]

Dasgal,
I have missed you too. I remember you from the olden days of websleuthing. LOL
From my understanding they are requesting to test these things.
They are the limb hair found on the sock, the pubic hair for further breakdown analysis, the shirt, and a couple of other items. Mama Darlie wasn't too specific about it.

:truce:

These are all items that were available at trial that they opted not to test. O, that doesn't sound good. Plus they probably won't approve tests that the results won't prove innocence on. Like the pubic hair...it is doubtful that any test could identify the donor. Without a root, even more sophisticated dna won't help...unless there was a suspect to compare it to. I wonder why they don't just turn it down instead of dragging it out like this.

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

These are all items that were available at trial that they opted not to test. O, that doesn't sound good. Plus they probably won't approve tests that the results won't prove innocence on. Like the pubic hair...it is doubtful that any test could identify the donor. Without a root, even more sophisticated dna won't help...unless there was a suspect to compare it to. I wonder why they don't just turn it down instead of dragging it out like this.

There was a root and this newer testing can prove if it belongs to a family member. Proof of an intruder. Attack and Ambush style convictions aren't well respected in fed court. It is still behind closed doors so we will just have to wait.

 

[Goody]

There was a root and this newer testing can prove if it belongs to a family member. Proof of an intruder. Attack and Ambush style convictions aren't well respected in fed court. It is still behind closed doors so we will just have to wait.

It is not in federal court. The new tests are being heard by a Dallas judge...long ways from fed appeals yet.

I read an article in Texas Monthly that Texas courts do not often grant new tests and are really balking on dna testing for inmates who might be proven innocent with the results. I suspect the Dallas court maybe dragging their feet while they wait for some ruling to come down, but I could be wrong. At any rate, there is nothing about these tests that look hopeful for Darlie because even if the hairs prove to belong to someone other than the family, it still does not prove an intruder was in the house. Only if those hairs could be linked to someone who had no reason to be the house that night or in the days preceding the murders...how far do we go back? weeks? And then what about the potential for innocent transfers? I just don't see much hope for her without something stronger...like the bloody fingerprint. If it could be positively identified or if she and all police and EMT personnel could be eliminated, it might be enough to at least warrant a new trial.

 

[SanQuentinvisitor]

It is not in federal court. The new tests are being heard by a Dallas judge...long ways from fed appeals yet.

I read an article in Texas Monthly that Texas courts do not often grant new tests and are really balking on dna testing for inmates who might be proven innocent with the results. I suspect the Dallas court maybe dragging their feet while they wait for some ruling to come down, but I could be wrong. At any rate, there is nothing about these tests that look hopeful for Darlie because even if the hairs prove to belong to someone other than the family, it still does not prove an intruder was in the house. Only if those hairs could be linked to someone who had no reason to be the house that night or in the days preceding the murders...how far do we go back? weeks? And then what about the potential for innocent transfers? I just don't see much hope for her without something stronger...like the bloody fingerprint. If it could be positively identified or if she and all police and EMT personnel could be eliminated, it might be enough to at least warrant a new trial.

You're right Goody. A hair (unless in a case of rape - or a fresh body with fibers or hairs from an attack) could have come from anywhere at any time. It proves nothing in this case. Now blood from an intruder that maybe was cut in the process of this slaughter, absolutely- that would help her case tremendously. Such is not the case and therefore, I see no reason this judge will allow for testing.

I am a true believer that if there is reason to believe evidence could exonerate an inmate, to hell with cost and time- test it!!! But if it's just smoke and mirrors, forget it. Our courts are bogged down enough with irrelevant claims.

In her case - the lack of evidence speaks volumns-. The house is too clean for an outsider to have been there THAT NIGHT. Pubic hair is everywhere and could have come from a shoe or clothing........without a person to connect the hair to, what's the smoking gun?

 

[Goody]

You're right Goody. A hair (unless in a case of rape - or a fresh body with fibers or hairs from an attack) could have come from anywhere at any time. It proves nothing in this case. Now blood from an intruder that maybe was cut in the process of this slaughter, absolutely- that would help her case tremendously. Such is not the case and therefore, I see no reason this judge will allow for testing.

I am a true believer that if there is reason to believe evidence could exonerate an inmate, to hell with cost and time- test it!!! But if it's just smoke and mirrors, forget it. Our courts are bogged down enough with irrelevant claims.

In her case - the lack of evidence speaks volumns-. The house is too clean for an outsider to have been there THAT NIGHT. Pubic hair is everywhere and could have come from a shoe or clothing........without a person to connect the hair to, what's the smoking gun?

Exactly. The judge in Dallas was apparently hoping the two sides could work it out together as it seems a lot of time was wasted on his sending them out to do that and nothing ever happened. The paperwork indicates the state agreed but never responded to defense's requests for the materials. That is what brought them to the judge's chambers, I think, and now there is yet another delay. I don't know what is going on, but bottomline I don't think her requests have much substance. Esp in light of Texas' resistance to testing after conviction. I think she has a better chance on the transcript problems, but if she has to show that she might have won an appeal if they were complete and certaified, it might be another dead end for her because I don't see any error in the transcripts that could have been detrimental to her case, then or now. Overall, it doesn't look good for Darlie.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

So what the heck is the fifth circuit. Let me guess... the fifth circuit court of appeals. That would be federal????

Yes, you're right!!

 

[Goody]

Yes, you're right!!

So how many appeals can Darlie have in the fifth circuit? As many as she can think up?

And do each of them go higher up or do they end with the fifth circuit?

 

[SanQuentinvisitor]

So how many appeals can Darlie have in the fifth circuit? As many as she can think up?

And do each of them go higher up or do they end with the fifth circuit?

Here's the appeal process for TX....each state varies as it states here:

In a capital murder case, the appellate process varies slightly from state to state but there are generally at least eight levels of appeal available.

• The first appeal is filed with the state court of appeals and is based on issues developed from the original trial record. If granted, the case is sent back to the district court for acquittal, retrial or rehearing but the state can appeal the reversal.
  
• If denied, the convicted can appeal to the US Supreme Court asking for a "certiorari" review. If denied, this ends the "direct appeal".
  
• A person sentenced to death is then entitled to seek state habeas corpus review, which is basically just an additional appeal. It differs from the direct appeal in that the defendant may now raise claims based on facts outside the trial record and they must be claims that could not be raised in the direct appeal. These usually consist of claims of ineffective assistance of counsel. This appeal is filed with the trial court but reviewed by the state appeals court also.
  
• If the state habeas corpus review is denied, the inmate can appeal to the US Supreme Court.
  
• Then the Federal habeas appeals begin when the inmate files a petition for habeas review with the US District Court that oversees that area.
  
• If the writ of habeas corpus is denied by the District Court, the appeal can then move to the US Circuit Court.
  
• If the Circuit Court denies the appeal, the inmate can again ask the US Supreme Court for certiorari review. As with certiorari after the direct appeal, the US Supreme Court rarely agrees to hear and consider such cases.
  
• If denied a hearing from the US Supreme Court, an execution date is set and the final appeal left to the defendant is to ask for clemency or commutation from the governor and/or the parole board of the state.
  
• If this is denied, the execution is carried out, unless another court intervenes for some reason.
  

 

[dasgal]

Dasgal,
I have missed you too. I remember you from the olden days of websleuthing. LOL
From my understanding they are requesting to test these things.
They are the limb hair found on the sock, the pubic hair for further breakdown analysis, the shirt, and a couple of other items. Mama Darlie wasn't too specific about it.

:truce:

Hello, whoever you are!
Hmmm, if they are just wanting a retest, I can see why there would be some reluctance. Do you know if Darin's clothing are among the items that they are wanting to test? Now, that, I could see. Please update whenever you know more. With you being a friend of the family, I wouldn't expect you to betray their confidences, but I'm sure eventually, this hearing, the requests, and the decision will be made public. Any further info is much appreciated.

 

[dasgal]

These are all items that were available at trial that they opted not to test. O, that doesn't sound good. Plus they probably won't approve tests that the results won't prove innocence on. Like the pubic hair...it is doubtful that any test could identify the donor. Without a root, even more sophisticated dna won't help...unless there was a suspect to compare it to. I wonder why they don't just turn it down instead of dragging it out like this.

Warning-I'm highjacking my own thread-LOL
I could be totally wrong, but I thought that they were now able to identify DNA through hair slicing even without the root folicle. Again, could be wrong.
But I hear ya though.....even if these items were determined not to have belonged to anyone in the house, I can't imagine that it would have much baring as far as innocents. Even the cleanest housekeeper in the world is going to miss something.

 

[dasgal]

There was a root and this newer testing can prove if it belongs to a family member. Proof of an intruder. Attack and Ambush style convictions aren't well respected in fed court. It is still behind closed doors so we will just have to wait.

Oops, didn't see your post before highjacking....I thought I had heard of that....I digress.

I don't think you can really correlate materials belonging to other unknown persons as being proof of an intruder. That's a lot of ground to cover.
Part of Darlie's defense was that she was some kind of supermom who had neighbor kids climbing all around the house all the time. These kids can transfer items from their own homes into the Routier home. I know that Darlie cleaned that day, and that the house was kept by a maid, but let me put it to you like this: If I called a hazmat team into my home and asked them to disenfect it from top to bottom, without ripping out the carpets, drapes, removing furniture ect, I can guarantee you that I could walk back into my homes, minutes after their departure and find numerous hairs. As someone who has people visit on a regular basis, I could type all my friends and family, and still find hairs that they brought in from "thier" homes via transfer from thier clothes, bodies, etc.....so in essense, something as simple and as common as hair isn't going to mean anything.

 

[dasgal]

LOL.........ok, I can see that I am going to have to read entire threads before responding.......I just keep babbling on about what has already been said. :innocent:

 

[Goody]

Warning-I'm highjacking my own thread-LOL
I could be totally wrong, but I thought that they were now able to identify DNA through hair slicing even without the root folicle. Again, could be wrong.
But I hear ya though.....even if these items were determined not to have belonged to anyone in the house, I can't imagine that it would have much baring as far as innocents. Even the cleanest housekeeper in the world is going to miss something.

You may be right. I don't follow it close enough to know for sure. I agree with your final thoughts and I don't see how knowing all there is to know about a hair would do much good if there is no person to connect it to. It would be different if Darlie's hair or one of the kids hairs were found in some stranger's car or on his jacket or something. If couldn't explain how their hair could have transferred to him, they would have a viable suspect. But how do you connect a hair to an unknown person? Unless you can get a dna profile to compare to a databank? Still,if it came up empty, you'd be in the same boat...unable to prove there was a stranger in the house that night. All you would have is a dna profile of an unknown person, who for all we know could be Darlie's best friend's sister's lover who had never set foot in the house.

 

[Goody]

Hello, whoever you are!
Hmmm, if they are just wanting a retest, I can see why there would be some reluctance. Do you know if Darin's clothing are among the items that they are wanting to test? Now, that, I could see. Please update whenever you know more. With you being a friend of the family, I wouldn't expect you to betray their confidences, but I'm sure eventually, this hearing, the requests, and the decision will be made public. Any further info is much appreciated.

From what I understand, they want to test/retest:

Darlie's shirt, Darin's jeans, the hairs, the screen fiber, etc. There are affidavits from Laber and maybe Epstein, too, with their recommendations. You might check justicefordarlie.net for updated info on that stuff. O, is there something about a hat?

 

[beesy]

I'm confused, where was this stupid hair found and does it have a root?

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

Oops, didn't see your post before highjacking....I thought I had heard of that....I digress.

I don't think you can really correlate materials belonging to other unknown persons as being proof of an intruder. That's a lot of ground to cover.
Part of Darlie's defense was that she was some kind of supermom who had neighbor kids climbing all around the house all the time. These kids can transfer items from their own homes into the Routier home. I know that Darlie cleaned that day, and that the house was kept by a maid, but let me put it to you like this: If I called a hazmat team into my home and asked them to disenfect it from top to bottom, without ripping out the carpets, drapes, removing furniture ect, I can guarantee you that I could walk back into my homes, minutes after their departure and find numerous hairs. As someone who has people visit on a regular basis, I could type all my friends and family, and still find hairs that they brought in from "thier" homes via transfer from thier clothes, bodies, etc.....so in essense, something as simple and as common as hair isn't going to mean anything.

Look for numerous breeds of dog hairs from my house. We ripped out all the carpet replaced with tile and I can not believe the amount of hair 1 chihuahua can shed in 1 week. Fur balls everywhere. Look for the perp who is covered in dog hairs, a Jack Russell, a plot hound, a pom/chihuahua, a chihuahua and a pit bull. If this combo of doggy hairs shows up anywhere you have your man/woman. I am not as fastidious as Darile or even my mother I only vacuum 1 a week on my day off. Maybe I just don't notice them but I don't find pubic hairs anywhere but my bathroom and dressing area. There is carpet in the bedrooms and the carpet seems to keep the stuff from getting blown or tracked around as much. I do notice head hairs as when I loose a hair its over a foot long. They get everywhere. Even wrapped around the legs of furniture. I have heard it is normal to loose 100 hairs a day. More than that and you may have a balding problem.

What about the facial hair that was tested and didn't belong to Darlie ( never knew her to have facial hair anyway) or Darin. I know they keep a fingerprint profile on rescue workers like police and ambulance personnel why not a DNA too. It would sure clear out a room full of possible contributors in any case where police have to investigate a crime scene and rescue personnel where there first.

Can you call that haz mat team for me I could use some help I hate housework. When I was a stay at home mom it wasn't that bad as it doesn't pile up. Now I look for any reason to not have to do it.

 

[cami]

There is a picture of the cemetary on that same link and you can see headstones. I never said anything about there being a headstone. Where my grandfather is buried they only allow markers, but not so where Damon and Darin are. Anyway, I've never seen this one justice and Goody are talking about and I looked on several different sites. I don't know how old the picture on Find a Grave is.

I just saw it in that new programme I just watched. It's a flat marker, it had a bouquet of roses on it. In the right top corner is an airplane and in the left a motorcycle. Damon and Devon together forever it reads.

 

[cami]

These are all items that were available at trial that they opted not to test. O, that doesn't sound good. Plus they probably won't approve tests that the results won't prove innocence on. Like the pubic hair...it is doubtful that any test could identify the donor. Without a root, even more sophisticated dna won't help...unless there was a suspect to compare it to. I wonder why they don't just turn it down instead of dragging it out like this.

The only way to test limb hair too is by mitochondrial dna, not nucleur. But the tests are not nearly as conclusive as nucleur so I doubt the appeals court will opt to have limb hair tested. No way will it prove her innocent and that's what the onus is on her now.