Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[Heymom]

I totally agree. The crime scene was compromised before the cops got there due to the Ramsey's calling everyone over. Who in the hell would do that after reading the RN? No one would. Except the Ramsey's. Money and status kept this case from being solved in the first 24 hours. And there was absolutely NO reason Pam should have been allowed into the home! They were wealthy! They could afford new freaking outfits for the funeral. Imho there was no excuse for the lack of proper investigation. Sickening to me. Poor little JonBenet.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

They did *everything* the RN told them specifically NOT to do, as if they weren't trying to prevent JonBenet's "beheading," but to assure that she was killed. Or to account for her killing, which had already taken place. It is laughingly amateur, except that JonBenet HAD been killed and they were trying to cover that up, and the BPD unwittingly assisted in that. The victim's advocates should also have been sent away from an active crime scene, what nonsense that they showed up to support the family and were cleaning up after the fingerprint dusting! When I think of it I just get so angry!

 

[TeaTime]

They did great in the long term, but in the critical First 48, they blew it imo. We can talk about inexperience and low staffing, but we wouldn't excuse it in a hospital ER (my frame of reference), so I have difficulty excusing it in this case. It was only one case, not a multitude of victims or a multitude of cases all on the same day. If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution. I get it that Kolar was respectful of his former colleagues, but there were glaring gaps and gaffes in this investigation early on.

Having all those friends in the house made for a bit more complicated crime scene forensically but honestly, there were 40 people in the house at a party on the 23rd, so those extra folks that were there on the 26th was about like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool - negligible change in circumstances.

If LE had banned visitors into the house that morning I don't see how the outcome would have been different. Maybe without friends to occupy her, PR would have blurted out something? I don't think so.

Linda should never have been left alone to oversee all the folks in the house. I think this was a bad decision and led to JR 'finding" JBR's body and moving it from its location. Not a good thing but not a fatal error. Bodies and crime scenes are tampered with all the time and do not render the investigations impossible, just more difficult.

The only thing that may have made any difference whatsoever is if PR and JR were taken to the police station immediately after the body was found, before they could lawyer up at the Fernies house.

So, the officers at BPD erred in thinking that the parents would cooperate in the investigation of the murder of their child and treated them kindly, like victims, rather than perps. This was a judgment call from the top down and the only error of the day.

 

[Heymom]

Having all those friends in the house made for a bit more complicated crime scene forensically but honestly, there were 40 people in the house at a party on the 23rd, so those extra folks that were there on the 26th was about like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool - negligible change in circumstances.

If LE had banned visitors into the house that morning I don't see how the outcome would have been different. Maybe without friends to occupy her, PR would have blurted out something? I don't think so.

Linda should never have been left alone to oversee all the folks in the house. I think this was a bad decision and led to JR 'finding" JBR's body and moving it from its location. Not a good thing but not a fatal error. Bodies and crime scenes are tampered with all the time and do not render the investigations impossible, just more difficult.

The only thing that may have made any difference whatsoever is if PR and JR were taken to the police station immediately after the body was found, before they could lawyer up at the Fernies house.

So, the officers at BPD erred in thinking that the parents would cooperate in the investigation of the murder of their child and treated them kindly, like victims, rather than perps. This was a judgment call from the top down and the only error of the day.

Letting the friends into the house was an added complication in a low-staff situation. They didn't have the manpower to keep an eye on everyone while also investigating the scene. They were inexperienced in the situation in the first place. I think the possible contamination was only a side benefit, if any happened, and what JR & PR were trying to do is make sure that they did everything the supposed kidnappers did NOT want them to do. "Talking to a stray dog" included their friends and their pastor. They couldn't be blamed if the kidnappers saw them & killed JonBenet and then somehow beamed her body back into the house!

At the time LA was left alone at the house, the crime was still seen as a kidnapping although the CBI had already told BPD that it was not likely to be anything other than a domestic crime and the child was likely going to be found inside the house. I guess they didn't listen carefully enough, because they were still falling for the act that JR & PR were putting on.

So then 2 days later, Pam Paugh gets to come and raid the house for funeral apparel and other items. That was also a mistake, because items of evidence could have been removed with no scrutiny. No inventory was ever made of the items Pam took out of the house.

 

[PositiveLight]

Having all those friends in the house made for a bit more complicated crime scene forensically but honestly, there were 40 people in the house at a party on the 23rd, so those extra folks that were there on the 26th was about like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool - negligible change in circumstances.

If LE had banned visitors into the house that morning I don't see how the outcome would have been different. Maybe without friends to occupy her, PR would have blurted out something? I don't think so.

Linda should never have been left alone to oversee all the folks in the house. I think this was a bad decision and led to JR 'finding" JBR's body and moving it from its location. Not a good thing but not a fatal error. Bodies and crime scenes are tampered with all the time and do not render the investigations impossible, just more difficult.

The only thing that may have made any difference whatsoever is if PR and JR were taken to the police station immediately after the body was found, before they could lawyer up at the Fernies house.

So, the officers at BPD erred in thinking that the parents would cooperate in the investigation of the murder of their child and treated them kindly, like victims, rather than perps. This was a judgment call from the top down and the only error of the day.

I often wonder what would have happened had it just been PR and JR at the house. (As it should have been). The cops I feel would have found her body quicker. Less distractions would have left the LE to focus on the crime scene. I wonder though what was their true reasoning for calling their friends over. Anyone know if there is a copy of their phone logs that day? From the house phone to be precise. I'm aware John had a cell phone but he had no calls made to or from his phone (I truly don't believe this is possible). Didn't Linda Arndt say in an interview that her phone went dead and she used the families cell phones to call command center? Trying to remember!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[dodie20]

To me, the main red flag pointing to the Rs, regarding their own questionable behavior, was them refusing to even consider that maybe Jonbenet suffered prior abuse. They slammed that door shut. And think about it...finding out who had been abusing their daughter, could lead to finding the killer. And what parent wouldn't want that? uncover every stone on the path to the truth, but no, they didn't want that.

 

[kanzz]

Having all those friends in the house made for a bit more complicated crime scene forensically but honestly, there were 40 people in the house at a party on the 23rd, so those extra folks that were there on the 26th was about like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool - negligible change in circumstances.

If LE had banned visitors into the house that morning I don't see how the outcome would have been different. Maybe without friends to occupy her, PR would have blurted out something? I don't think so.

Linda should never have been left alone to oversee all the folks in the house. I think this was a bad decision and led to JR 'finding" JBR's body and moving it from its location. Not a good thing but not a fatal error. Bodies and crime scenes are tampered with all the time and do not render the investigations impossible, just more difficult.

The only thing that may have made any difference whatsoever is if PR and JR were taken to the police station immediately after the body was found, before they could lawyer up at the Fernies house.

So, the officers at BPD erred in thinking that the parents would cooperate in the investigation of the murder of their child and treated them kindly, like victims, rather than perps. This was a judgment call from the top down and the only error of the day.

Oh - when I said - "If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution." - I meant everyone except the R's. Out of the house. BR shouldn't have been allowed to leave.

Then none of that folderol with those people cleaning the house would have happened. None of the protecting of PR and shielding her from the police or her demanding that a detective remove his gun and his shirt. Maybe they could have separated the two of them right there in that great big house and the questioning could have started right away. Then cops could have put a little pressure on the two them while somebody else spoke to BR. I just think they were so taken aback by the social event that PR created, they backed down. They shouldn't have. Somebody should have had the stones to take control of the situation.

JR, PR, and BR should have been taken to headquarters and their phone lines should have been transferred there as soon as 10:00 came and went. And then the 3 of them should have been taken into separate rooms and questioned while detectives combed the house. They would have found JB. The crime scene wouldn't have been contaminated. They would have already had JR, PR, and BR in a pinch.

Weak, lame, punk-*advertiser censored* police work. It would have never happened like that if they had been poor folk. Those friends would have been run off in a heartbeat. And the cops would have been right up somebody's tailpipe with that phony RN. I'd love to see a make-believe version of this story on Lifetime with a ghetto version of JB.. have it play out with the cops right up in the face of the family from the beginning, solve the thing, show the courtroom drama and the sentencing... then have a surprise ending to show how this is how it probably would have gone had JB's parents been poor.

 

[Heymom]

Oh - when I said - "If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution." - I meant everyone except the R's. Out of the house. BR shouldn't have been allowed to leave.

Then none of that folderol with those people cleaning the house would have happened. None of the protecting of PR and shielding her from the police or her demanding that a detective remove his gun and his shirt. Maybe they could have separated the two of them right there in that great big house and the questioning could have started right away. Then cops could have put a little pressure on the two them while somebody else spoke to BR. I just think they were so taken aback by the social event that PR created, they backed down. They shouldn't have. Somebody should have had the stones to take control of the situation.

JR, PR, and BR should have been taken to headquarters and their phone lines should have been transferred there as soon as 10:00 came and went. And then the 3 of them should have been taken into separate rooms and questioned while detectives combed the house. They would have found JB. The crime scene wouldn't have been contaminated. They would have already had JR, PR, and BR in a pinch.

Weak, lame, punk-*advertiser censored* police work. It would have never happened like that if they had been poor folk. Those friends would have been run off in a heartbeat. And the cops would have been right up somebody's tailpipe with that phony RN. I'd love to see a make-believe version of this story on Lifetime with a ghetto version of JB.. have it play out with the cops right up in the face of the family from the beginning, solve the thing, show the courtroom drama and the sentencing... then have a surprise ending to show how this is how it probably would have gone had JB's parents been poor.

Moral of the story: Freedom can be bought, and justice isn't blind, not by a long shot. We all know that the cops were at least somewhat intimidated by the Ramseys' perceived social status. Isn't that sad for JonBenet...

 

[singularity]

Oh - when I said - "If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution." - I meant everyone except the R's. Out of the house. BR shouldn't have been allowed to leave.

Then none of that folderol with those people cleaning the house would have happened. None of the protecting of PR and shielding her from the police or her demanding that a detective remove his gun and his shirt. Maybe they could have separated the two of them right there in that great big house and the questioning could have started right away. Then cops could have put a little pressure on the two them while somebody else spoke to BR. I just think they were so taken aback by the social event that PR created, they backed down. They shouldn't have. Somebody should have had the stones to take control of the situation.

JR, PR, and BR should have been taken to headquarters and their phone lines should have been transferred there as soon as 10:00 came and went. And then the 3 of them should have been taken into separate rooms and questioned while detectives combed the house. They would have found JB. The crime scene wouldn't have been contaminated. They would have already had JR, PR, and BR in a pinch.

Weak, lame, punk-*advertiser censored* police work. It would have never happened like that if they had been poor folk. Those friends would have been run off in a heartbeat. And the cops would have been right up somebody's tailpipe with that phony RN. I'd love to see a make-believe version of this story on Lifetime with a ghetto version of JB.. have it play out with the cops right up in the face of the family from the beginning, solve the thing, show the courtroom drama and the sentencing... then have a surprise ending to show how this is how it probably would have gone had JB's parents been poor.

Certainly agree but even with that house full of people, it was possible to contain them had proper procedure went into effect.


First we've got her bedroom....alive or dead...and its supposed to be a kidnapping...something happened there. Seal it immediately. Its priority number one. By proxy this seals off her bathroom where something may have happened as well.


It should've been obvious even to Barney Fife that there was major activity in John Andrew's room. Seal it off. No one is allowed in.

Patsy says the ransom note is found on the bottom of the stairs....well ok Patsy....that now means the 2nd AND the 3rd floor are completely off limits.

Regardless of the when/where/whys of the broken window...that basement should have been declared off limits immediately when the glass shards were spotted. No one is allowed down there and certainly not the father and his BFF.

Had they used such a strategy as sectioning it off in quadrants....which not only secures critical areas, evidence,etc. it does something even more important as far as this case goes.....it paints this family, their friends, advocates, etc. into a very small corner where little to no movement is allowed. Screwups can still occur by even keeping them in the house which was happening no matter what....but can you imagine a scenario where John is not allowed into the basement or the upper floors after say 7 am or so?

 

[dodie20]

Airasae

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9701/11/slain.girl.update/transcript.html

Reading quotes from JR, never ceases to amaze me, such as this little tidbit..." Well, no. I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind. And it said "Don't call the police." You know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy, call the police immediately. "lol... and while PR is consumed with the who... "For the safety of all of the children, we have to find out who did this", JR seems more consumed with why...."we cannot go on until we know why. There's no answer as to why our daughter died" . hmmm

 

[Userid]

I watched the Lifetime movie and documentary about this case last night. The documentary "JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer" took the IDI theory angle and pretty much absolved PR of wrongdoing, because the doctors on the special said that the blow to the head had to have come after the strangulation, because she couldn't have fought back after being struck with such a forceful blow. So therefore, the "accident" theory doesn't hold water, as the garrotte was applied first. They point to the fingernail marks as evidence again, but I have a question: was there ever any of JBR's DNA/skin recovered from beneath her own fingernails? And if there never was, doesn't that prove that those aren't "fingernail marks" on her neck?

 

[Coco'sMommy]

I watched the Lifetime movie and documentary about this case last night. The documentary "JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer" took the IDI theory angle and pretty much absolved PR of wrongdoing, because the doctors on the special said that the blow to the head had to have come after the strangulation, because she couldn't have fought back after being struck with such a forceful blow. So therefore, the "accident" theory doesn't hold water, as the garrotte was applied first. They point to the fingernail marks as evidence again, but I have a question: was there ever any of JBR's DNA/skin recovered from beneath her own fingernails? And if there never was, doesn't that prove that those aren't "fingernail marks" on her neck?

The "fingernail marks" appeared to me to go the opposite direction of the way they would look if JB had been clawing at her own neck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Userid]

The "fingernail marks" appeared to me to go the opposite direction of the way they would look if JB had been clawing at her own neck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, me too. And if there wasn't any of her own DNA beneath her own fingernails, that really drives home the belief that those aren't fingernail marks. I find it convenient that the specials completely leave out whether or not her DNA was found beneath her fingernails -- both in the A&E and Lifetime docs.

 

[Coco'sMommy]

Yes, me too. And if there wasn't any of her own DNA beneath her own fingernails, that really drives home the belief that those aren't fingernail marks. I find it convenient that the specials completely leave out whether or not her DNA was found beneath her fingernails -- both in the A&E and Lifetime docs.

Yes those documentaries were a waste of my time. The way they ignored the DNA issue is maddening. The CBS one was great. I'm the course of my daily life I pass the house every two weeks. It makes me sad each time.

Last Friday someone was coming out to the gate (there is an iron fence now around it) with a big huge gorgeous dog.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Userid]

^ Yeah, I really liked the ID Channel's -- I thought that was by far the most partial and really looked at both sides (IDI, RDI) equally and really didn't leave anything out.

I saw a special about the new owner of the house (forgot where now). It was a woman (I assume she has a family, considering how big that house is). She said she was very hesitant at first, but once she saw it, she fell in love.

 

[kanzz]

I watched the Lifetime movie and documentary about this case last night. The documentary "JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer" took the IDI theory angle and pretty much absolved PR of wrongdoing, because the doctors on the special said that the blow to the head had to have come after the strangulation, because she couldn't have fought back after being struck with such a forceful blow. So therefore, the "accident" theory doesn't hold water, as the garrotte was applied first. They point to the fingernail marks as evidence again, but I have a question: was there ever any of JBR's DNA/skin recovered from beneath her own fingernails? And if there never was, doesn't that prove that those aren't "fingernail marks" on her neck?

BBM

I didn't watch, so I don't know if it's new or a re-run. But I'll say this - those docs are wrong about a couple of things. They would understand this case if they had read the AR.
The head blow came first. Period. Those wounds caused subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage. That would not have happened if she had already been dead. This caused her to become unconscious, probably immediately. She was breathing when the ligature was applied to her neck, which then caused her death. This is evidenced by the petechiae and fluid on her lungs.
The marks on the neck were not fingernail marks. They were petechiae.

As for her own DNA under her nails - I doubt that they checked, but I don't know. My first thought is - why would they? We all have our own DNA under our nails.

Of course, the Touch DNA (tDNA) is a Red Herring anyway and Mary Lacy knew it all along.
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/jonbenet-ramsey/ci_30514220/jonbenet-ramsey-dna-evidence

The lab that performed the DNA testing, for example, told Lacy in March 2008 that it was "likely" the two samples found on JonBenet's long johns came from "more than two people" and "should not be considered a single-source profile," according to the documents obtained by the Camera and 9NEWS.

 

[Userid]

BBM

I didn't watch, so I don't know if it's new or a re-run. But I'll say this - those docs are wrong about a couple of things. They would understand this case if they had read the AR.
The head blow came first. Period. Those wounds caused subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage. That would not have happened if she had already been dead. This caused her to become unconscious, probably immediately. She was breathing when the ligature was applied to her neck, which then caused her death. This is evidenced by the petechiae and fluid on her lungs.
The marks on the neck were not fingernail marks. They were petechiae.
As for her own DNA under her nails - I doubt that they checked, but I don't know. My first thought is - why would they? We all have our own DNA under our nails.

Yeah, I hear you Kanzz. As far as I know, it was a new doc. One of the doctors was the same guy from the A&E special (skinny, shaved head, glasses) that was convinced of IDI. The doctors on here said that the marking (not the fingernail markings, but the other markings) show that blood was still flowing, and that obviously it was hindered by the binding and that the heart was still working while the binding was applied. Also, they were saying (if I remember correctly) that the hemorrhaging would have been more severe had she still been alive.

True, I just thought that if one was fighting for her life, she would have extra DNA or skin beneath her nails; or even blood (from her neck), etc. I would hope that they would have automatically checked a victim's fingernails, if only to see if any foreign DNA could be found.

 

[Tortoise]

Yeah, I believe the head blow was first and the strangulation was last. The only thing that bothers me somewhat is if the head blow caused unconsciousness, why JonBenet didn't release her bladder at that point.

 

[kanzz]

Yeah, I believe the head blow was first and the strangulation was last. The only thing that bothers me somewhat is if the head blow caused unconsciousness, why JonBenet didn't release her bladder at that point.

People don't usually lose control of their bladder &/or bowels when they lose consciousness.

 

[Afterimage]

People don't usually lose control of their bladder &/or bowels when they lose consciousness.

Very true...otherwise boxing and MMA would be a very messy and embarrassing sport.

Bladder and bowel release doesn't happen until death has occurred.

 

[Tortoise]

People don't usually lose control of their bladder &/or bowels when they lose consciousness.

If the bladder is full then it takes muscle control to stop urination. This is not just a faint, it's coupled with a serious brain injury, and I think incontinence is likely to occur. Spitz even said she was brain dead.