DC - Savvas Savopoulos, family & Veralicia Figueroa murdered; Daron Wint Arrested #16

[rkf]

As a shy, very-behind-in-my-work individual (who is slogging through writing work reports that I aspire to produce with the highest technical and language standards, and doing so on a holiday to hopefully move towards removing the "very" in my self-description), this is my first post here after lurking/reading since May.

Among the multitude of horrifying aspects of this tragedy that I cannot bring myself to comment on, what I find myself hung up on today is the bizarre writing in JW's bio (first link in rkf's post above).

I can forgive the subject-verb disagreement in the first sentence of his bio, but what is with the switching from 1st to 3rd person even within the same sentences??? :banghead: This was not a dashed-off FB post, this was something he was putting out there to try to further his career.

Not sure what this speaks to. Stupidity? Poor English instruction at AA HS? Grandiosity in that he likely did not have anyone else proofread important and career-related writing he published on the internet? IMHO

Welcome! :greetings:

 

[stmarysmead]

I agree. But it bugs me when I have a typo in one of my WS posts!

The way that is written shows me a lot of things (inferring):
1. He doesn't have anyone with writing skills to proof-read his web content before he posts it.
2. He doesn't think he needs proof-reading and doesn't see the errors.
3. He doesn't write well.
4. He either doesn't understand how rankings, points and championships work or he counts on his readers to not know.
5. He lies/embellishes/exaggerates details that can easily be fact-checked.

*Does the inconsistent 1st and 3rd person sentence structure mean anything psychologically? Skigirl?

-"Moving forward, he began to explore my interest in speed at age 18 by attending a Stunt Drivers Certification course."
-"As my racing career progressed, he attained a Superlite Truck license and national competition license."
-"Jordan was then invited to be a finalist in the Skip Barber Karts to Cars Shootout which took place over 3 days down at Sebring as well, where I competed against some of the best young talent in racing from around the world..."

I believe he is also impulsive. Too impulsive to read before he posts or ask his GF (or anyone) to proofread.

I think the "mastermind" of this crime, using the term loosely, was also impulsive...and did not plan well. As LE stated "made a lot of mistakes."

Frankly, this biography of his is appalling. It would be unacceptable at a 6grade level. For a man of his age, it shows an impulsive personality that includes deception and grandiosity.

I find it troubling. just my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

I believe he is also impulsive. Too impulsive to read before he posts or ask his GF (or anyone) to proofread.

I think the "mastermind" of this crime, using the term loosely, was also impulsive...and did not plan well. As LE stated "made a lot of mistakes."

Frankly, this biography of his is appalling. It would be unacceptable at a 6grade level. For a man of his age, it shows an impulsive personality that includes deception and grandiosity.

I find it troubling. just my opinion.

I guess I am not as appalled because I constantly hear my DIL read me horrible term papers from her college students. She teaches freshman English at a UNIVERSITY and it is appalling what these kids turn in to her. I go over to help with my newborn grand daughter while my DIL grades papers online. She shakes her head and reads some of them to me while she is wincing in pain.

There are a lot of mistakes like the ones in JW's resume because these kids do not proof read. It is ridiculous. They cut and paste and delete and so they do not read each word like we did back in the day when we typed it laboriously letter by letter, with white out as a back up plan.

I agree that he is impulsive. And a liar. But I just have not made the leap that he is violent or vindictive or dangerous. JMO

 

[Skigirl]

Autobahn really was a god-send, and then he lost it. From what we know, he spent a lot of time trying to create his persona/career, which left little time for working at some other job to pay the bills/racing expenses. I'm leaning toward his job with SS being a part-time, limited stop-gap gig (at least as far as SS was concerned.) JW wasn't interested in making a living at some other job and spending his disposable income on racing. The only "career" acceptable to him was "race car driver". Heck, what aspiring actor doesn't work as a bartender/waiter/uber driver until they can make a living as a paid actor? Unless you come from money, you have to do what it takes to support yourself, while simultaneously working toward your dream job.

It is sad. I can't figure out if it's sad that JW found something he loves, but found it too late, doesn't have the family money needed to pursue it as a vocation/an avocation, isn't a late-blooming prodigy that can out-race people who have been doing it since childhood OR if it's sad that he believes if he could just get a break, he would rise to the top of the racing world.

I was a competitive athlete as a child. I did the work for hours every day and I sacrificed a lot. I was great by most standards, but as I got into my teens it became clear that I didn't really have what it took to make it to the top or even close. My parents and I saw that it was about to get exponentially more expensive, that it was interfering with my education and my ability to relate to peers, and we decided none of it was worth it. I cried and then I moved on. Lots of people do that. I would love to be a rock star. I'm too old and not really that good at playing the guitar. Too bad I didn't learn to play guitar earlier!

What separates the above from the behavior we've been discussing is something akin to narcissistic personality disorder:

- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Requires excessive admiration.
- Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
- Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. <- DANGEROUS
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

 

[kammiemc]

<modsnip>
We are picking apart JW's online resume and accusing him of exaggerating his wins in a Go Kart racing career and stretching that into motive for slaughtering a family?

Actually, if anything, it makes it seem more normal that he lied to LE in the investigation. If lying comes easily to him--even lies that can be easily detected, then maybe he wasn't hiding anything suspicious. Maybe he was just creating his own reality as he went along and believed what he was saying, so it didn't occur to him that the facts might not check out. Doesn't mean he is a felony murderer, just gives insight to his character.

 

[FelicityLemon]

As a shy, very-behind-in-my-work individual (who is slogging through writing work reports that I aspire to produce with the highest technical and language standards, and doing so on a holiday to hopefully move towards removing the "very" in my self-description), this is my first post here after lurking/reading since May.

Among the multitude of horrifying aspects of this tragedy that I cannot bring myself to comment on, what I find myself hung up on today is the bizarre writing in JW's bio (first link in rkf's post above).

I can forgive the subject-verb disagreement in the first sentence of his bio, but what is with the switching from 1st to 3rd person even within the same sentences??? :banghead: This was not a dashed-off FB post, this was something he was putting out there to try to further his career.

Not sure what this speaks to. Stupidity? Poor English instruction at AA HS? Grandiosity in that he likely did not have anyone else proofread important and career-related writing he published on the internet? IMHO

Some people are extremely intelligent and have problems with composing sentences, spelling and grammar.
Different people have different skills and different ways of learning. :/

 

[Skigirl]

Me, too, but I don't think he has the self-control to stay off SM for two months. I think he can't post.

ITA about not being able to stay off SM. I think he might be posting under another name.

 

[rkf]

He might actually believe his own lies. For instance, I can't understand why he would lie about something like having accompanied the acct into the bank and witnessing the transaction when he would so easily be found out. I start to wonder about his grasp of reality.

IMO, he is arrogant. He has been allowed to get away with stuff his whole life, either because he appears to be charming and unimpeachable or because he puts people in a position of having to be "rude" if they don't go along. I do wonder where wishful thinking becomes delusion. Is he not smart enough to know LE would check his story?

Delusion + desperation = ?

 

[kammiemc]

I was a competitive athlete as a child. I did the work for hours every day and I sacrificed a lot. I was great by most standards, but as I got into my teens it became clear that I didn't really have what it took to make it to the top or even close. My parents and I saw that it was about to get exponentially more expensive, that it was interfering with my education and my ability to relate to peers, and we decided none of it was worth it. I cried and then I moved on. Lots of people do that. I would love to be a rock star. I'm too old and not really that good at playing the guitar. Too bad I didn't learn to play guitar earlier!

What separates the above from the behavior we've been discussing is something akin to narcissistic personality disorder:

- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Believes that he or she is &#8220;special&#8221; and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Requires excessive admiration.
- Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
- Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. <- DANGEROUS
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

This exactly describes the guy I knew from HS. He thought he would be a famous actor. To his credit, he did break into the outer edges of that circle for awhile.

 

[mdcat]

I agree. But it bugs me when I have a typo in one of my WS posts!

The way that is written shows me a lot of things (inferring):
1. He doesn't have anyone with writing skills to proof-read his web content before he posts it.
2. He doesn't think he needs proof-reading and doesn't see the errors.
3. He doesn't write well.
4. He either doesn't understand how rankings, points and championships work or he counts on his readers to not know.
5. He lies/embellishes/exaggerates details that can easily be fact-checked.

*Does the inconsistent 1st and 3rd person sentence structure mean anything psychologically? Skigirl?

-"Moving forward, he began to explore my interest in speed at age 18 by attending a Stunt Drivers Certification course."
-"As my racing career progressed, he attained a Superlite Truck license and national competition license."
-"Jordan was then invited to be a finalist in the Skip Barber Karts to Cars Shootout which took place over 3 days down at Sebring as well, where I competed against some of the best young talent in racing from around the world..."

I hate typos too, which is why I had my husband read my 1st post before submitting it! (and this one as well, LOL)

RE: possible reasons behind the 1st person/3rd person garbling of language in his writing...so many potential differential diagnoses! ADHD, written language learning disability, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Mild Neurocognitive Disorder due to TBI (recall his reported concussions), etc.

Or, as I said before, poor education (although Annapolis HS is reasonably ranked among MD and US high schools according to US News & World Report http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...emagnet=y&state=MD&schooltypecharter=y&page=2), garden-variety impulsivity, some sort of identity disturbance...

Although I have a doctoral degree and extensive career experience which enable me to speak knowledgeably about these issues, all of this is IMHO of course!

 

[stmarysmead]

There was damning evidence against both of them. Poor little Caylee was thrown out like trash in Casey's childhood hiding place. And Scott cleaned the house with bleach before calling to report his pregnant wife missing on Christmas Eve.
We are picking apart JW's online resume and accusing him of exaggerating his wins in a Go Kart racing career and stretching that into motive for slaughtering a family?

There may yet be damning evidence against JW. We don't know.

Because this family WAS slaughtered, we are looking closely at certain people. Because JW lied to police, we are looking closely at HIS history. Because he lies just about everywhere we look, some of us find that troubling.

No one believes his lies are a "motive", but he certainly is a prolific liar and a careless one. Like many liars in high profile cases before (casey, Scott P), that personality disorder can be an indicator of more serious problems.

 

[al66pine]

I agree it's common. But this wasn't his dating profile. He is trying to become a professional race car driver. He's trying to get sponsors. His bio is basically his resumé....
We are making judgment calls (speculating) on people involved in this case from limited information. The thing about JW is that with very few exceptions, the only information we have about him has been supplied by him....

bbm sbm

Agreeing w Wyle_E_Coyote: "...lying on the internet. It's a rather common phenomenon."

rkf makes a distinction about dating websites vs job sites (& similar) w professional resumes.
Seems to me (without opening a dating site, shudder, to check) a lot of info requested & posted is subjective and not easily quantified or verified, like good sense of humor; avid reader; kind; athletic.
Much info on resumes contain is objective, can be verified as true or found to be false, e.g. employer names, dates, etc.

One other issue: readers' expectations about reliability of content. Do ppl expect dating site info to be 100% truthful and accurate? What about resumes? Well not necessarily the gospel truth but gen'ly higher than dating sites.

JM2cts, could be all wrong.

 

[Skigirl]

I agree. But it bugs me when I have a typo in one of my WS posts!

The way that is written shows me a lot of things (inferring):
1. He doesn't have anyone with writing skills to proof-read his web content before he posts it.
2. He doesn't think he needs proof-reading and doesn't see the errors.
3. He doesn't write well.
4. He either doesn't understand how rankings, points and championships work or he counts on his readers to not know.
5. He lies/embellishes/exaggerates details that can easily be fact-checked.

*Does the inconsistent 1st and 3rd person sentence structure mean anything psychologically? Skigirl?

-"Moving forward, he began to explore my interest in speed at age 18 by attending a Stunt Drivers Certification course."
-"As my racing career progressed, he attained a Superlite Truck license and national competition license."
-"Jordan was then invited to be a finalist in the Skip Barber Karts to Cars Shootout which took place over 3 days down at Sebring as well, where I competed against some of the best young talent in racing from around the world..."

I don't know if anyone has done any research about switching between first and third person, but most people interested in that sort of thing think that using third person can be a sign of narcissism. That may be a little unfair of me, since bios almost demand the third person. The switching is so CONSISTENT, though, which is interesting and strange. I am really shaking my head over it. I can't even think of a good mental diagnostic category, it's almost like a mid-sentence onset dissociative disorder. Maybe he finds it frustrating to be corrected and so didn't seek out someone to proofread. Maybe he thinks it doesn't matter because if he isn't bothered by errors other people won't notice or be bothered by them either?

It is a hallmark of a personality disorder to expect to be able to lie without consequence. People who lie consistently don't really have a good picture of what other people are thinking and take peoples' disinclination to rudely challenge someone in casual conversation for believing the lies. From there, I think it's self-perpetuating because people who lie and 'get away with it' start to overestimate how easy it is and how believable they are.

 

[facundo]

Another tragic example about deportation of violent felons...... Makes me sick.

http://wn.ktvu.com/story/29472601/s...-of-felonies-deportations#.VZc7-ZaTBik.mailto

This troubles me too. He had a detainer from ICE placed on him when they turned him over to SanF. So much for sanctuary cites if they can't comply. Something needs done, he was already deported 5 times. I don't understand what happened to common sense in our country.

Hopefully the Obama initiative reported Thursday in the Washington Post to direct ICE to chase criminals as first priority will help to reduce the criminal immigrants at large in the U.S. However, It will take more than federal priorities to gain universal cooperation with states and local LE authorities. For several years, major cities including Los Angeles, Baltimore, even Washington DC refused to report any violations by immigrants because they disagreed with ICE enforcement priorities, which were sweeping up any illegals for even minor offenses rather than targeting criminal activities. ICE was picking the low-hanging fruit while the major offenders such as Wint escaped the ICE deportation net.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...0960d2-1b56-11e5-93b7-5eddc056ad8a_story.html

 

[rkf]

There was damning evidence against both of them. Poor little Caylee was thrown out like trash in Casey's childhood hiding place. And Scott cleaned the house with bleach before calling to report his pregnant wife missing on Christmas Eve.
We are picking apart JW's online resume and accusing him of exaggerating his wins in a Go Kart racing career and stretching that into motive for slaughtering a family?

His lying shows he is not who he says he is. I'm not necessarily seeing JW murdering the victims with his bare hands. I think it's a much shorter reach from narcissistic sociopath to thief. If he is involved, I don't think he thought through all the possible outcomes - just saw something he wanted and thought he could take it without consequences.

 

[mdcat]

Some people are extremely intelligent and have problems with composing sentences, spelling and grammar.
Different people have different skills and different ways of learning. :/

I agree with you 100%. I in no way think that there is a 1:1 correspondence between intelligence and grammar skills. I do a ton of writing for work, and I sometimes don't see my typos even with close proofreading because our brains are primed to "see" what we intend to write which overrides what is actually on the paper or screen (and then I cringe when I look at what I have written a few months later and the typo jumps off of the page!).

We all have strengths and weaknesses. IMO, one of the most functional ways to get through life is to recognize one's own strengths and weaknesses, harness the strengths, and use compensatory mechanisms to work on or around the weaknesses.

The part that makes me go :banghead: is seeing a piece of writing that was clearly intended to support career advancement that was posted without the writer taking some sort of action to clean up the wording and grammar. That, and the potential psychological implications of the 1st person/3rd person mash-up.

 

[rkf]

This exactly describes the guy I knew from HS. He thought he would be a famous actor. To his credit, he did break into the outer edges of that circle for awhile.

It's not paranoia if people are after you. If you really are the top of your field, you're not a narcissist for thinking so. JMO

 

[rkf]

Actually, if anything, it makes it seem more normal that he lied to LE in the investigation. If lying comes easily to him--even lies that can be easily detected, then maybe he wasn't hiding anything suspicious. Maybe he was just creating his own reality as he went along and believed what he was saying, so it didn't occur to him that the facts might not check out. Doesn't mean he is a felony murderer, just gives insight to his character.

Yes! If the lies to LE were not isolated incidents, it tells us something about JW. It doesn't necessarily mean he is a torture-murderer.

 

[kammiemc]

IMO, he is arrogant. He has been allowed to get away with stuff his whole life, either because he appears to be charming and unimpeachable or because he puts people in a position of having to be "rude" if they don't go along. I do wonder where wishful thinking becomes delusion. Is he not smart enough to know LE would check his story?

Delusion + desperation = ?

I think you could be right. The way he presents himself on SM paints him to be pretty arrogant. Maybe he lives in a reality that doesn't adhere to rules and facts. Maybe he believes he is above all that.

He felt like he deserved to race, even if he was ineligible, so just lied that he was 25.

He felt like he deserved to be rich and famous, even though he didn't have the money to pay for racing gigs or the wins to substantiate that, so he just made up some wins and booked the races without paying the money.

He felt he deserved to flaunt his connection to the S's wealth to up his own image, without having had the privilege of being born into it or having to trudge for it.

He felt that he was above being caught when he lied about things that could so obviously be checked out in a heartbeat.

Maybe he believes he is special and can get away with things the rest of us can't.

Wonder why he got fired from the go kart place.

 

[kammiemc]

His lying shows he is not who he says he is. I'm not necessarily seeing JW murdering the victims with his bare hands. I think it's a much shorter reach from narcissistic sociopath to thief. If he is involved, I don't think he thought through all the possible outcomes - just saw something he wanted and thought he could take it without consequences.

That's what I think, too. I don't see the bare-hands murdering by him. Mostly because I can't go there, and there is nothing to indicate that he is violent. (Not because I believe he mirrors the image he portrayed on SM.)