EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

[SStarr33]

Ghostwheel, FWIW, on your last point, Tammy's mother said they were together the entire night and she also said they came home at 3:00.

 

[Aeronomy]

What about the texts that TM sent to Heather saying "someone's about to get their *advertiser censored* beat down" and was she ready "meet the Mrs." -- I think those things that she TEXTED to Heather are part of why people see her as the person responsible... (Edited to add that TM texted those to Heather on Nov. 1)

Just my :twocents:

My understanding is that those were the texts she sent when she first found out about the affair and were part of her initial reaction to learning about it.

 

[tabinmaine]

One of the things that has crossed my mind ever since I started reading about this case over a year ago is this :

Why would TM & SM, no matter who was in control/possession of what phones, continue to text back and forth and make phone calls or answer phone calls from HE's phone ?

I mean if you are planning on killing or kidnapping someone, would you not try to limit, if not AVOID, all contact with that person? You know the LE are going to look at you first, how did they think they could ever get away with this if they had just been in contact with her the same evening she went missing ???

 

[TTF14]

I agree. I've never really understood why everyone zoomed in on TM so quickly. Evidence unknown to us at this time may point to her, but from what we have seen I don't see why she is being or has been seen as the most likely one behind Heather's murder/disappearance (though I do believe she is no longer alive). I stopped posting for a while in the threads in part because I was definitely in the minority in those thoughts. Perhaps I still am, but cases have a way to suck you back in again.

I see the narcissism in TM, I think that's very obvious, but I don't see the control over SM as it keeps being stated. I know about the texts or posts she sent saying she had SM followed since January 2012 and about the fling she stated having occurred between HE/SM in Sept/Oct, but together, those two really don't make sense. If she actually had someone following him then she would have known the affair began in June, which I believe is the time the prosecution stated during the first hearing that the affair began. To me, it seems not only was she talking out her butt about him being followed, but it also seems SM lied to her about when the affair started. Unfortunately, I can see her anger at finding out her spouse was cheating and why she would message what she did to Heather back in November when she found out. Does that incident mean she'd kill her? No, but then again, less than two months later, Heather's missing.

Then there's the pictures sent to Heather which are assumed to have been sent by TM. Whoever said TM sent them? Sidney? Interesting to me, it is also Sidney who told the police about the incidents that led to the IE charges. I can't help but wonder if he sent the pics himself and knew the police would obtain them. Why else would he even tell the police the extent of what they were doing in the car instead of saying cuddling or whatever? Certainly he has no problem with lying and yet he felt compelled enough to give greater detail, why? It's also been stated he was handcuffed to the bed. Didn't SM state that? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. He said it so it must be so . . . and the reasons must be for the reasons he gave?

The only other thing I can think of about TM are those vulgar things she posted. They were horrible and mean, but I felt she posted them because of Heather and SM's affair coming to light. I think her narcissistic ways previously prevented her from telling very many people about it since it would tarnish her image of a faithful, loving family. So when it finally did come to the greater public's knowledge, she responded the way a narcissist would respond - in anger - hostile - and primarily blaming the only person that was not a part of her family. I would not at all be surprised if all the things TM stated about Heather were her just repeating all the loads of crap her husband was feeding her. Not that I don't think TM felt them herself, I do. I'm sure she despised Heather. Don't most wives despise the person their husband cheated on them with? Of course, those other people don't usually go missing or murdered.

I'm not trying to defend TM and say she's innocent. Based on all the evidence I've seen I do believe TM knows what happened and she had some kind of involvement before or after, but to think it was TM's plan or that she concocted it is still a stretch for me.

I've no reason not to think SM isn't just another Scott Peterson who devised his own plan, but took out his mistress instead of his wife.

Very, very interesting to consider.

Now to ponder, why would she stay with him if he was totally the mastermind behind this and responsible for every little bit? I don't get that.

 

[Dixie E]

I always wondered if SM saw HE out with her date that night and couldn`t handle it. It is odd that he would call from a pay phone almost right after she was dropped off by her date. That may be what prompted him to come out and tell her that he was leaving TM and wanted to be with her. He couldn`t bear the thought of her being with someone else. He was ready to do anything to be with her. Maybe she turned him down about seeing him that night and then he went on home. After a while HE thought it over and decided to call him and when she couldn't reach him back at the pay phone number which she probably didn`t know was a pay phone. When she couldn`t get him at that number, she tried his cell phone. The first call didn`t get answered, but, when she called back the second time, TM knew it was HE and probably told him to answer it and put the speaker on so she could hear what was going on. That is when, maybe, PTL was put into the plan. Just trying to come up with some explanation. Who showed up at PTL in the truck if it was one or both of them, we will probably never know.

 

[TTF14]

One of the things that have crossed my mind ever since I started reading about this case over a year ago is this :

Why would TM & SM, no matter who was in control/possession of what phones, continue to text back and forth and make phone calls or answer phone calls from HE's phone ?

I mean if you are planning on killing or kidnapping someone, would you not try to limit, if not AVOID, all contact with that person? You know the LE are going to look at you first, how did they think they could ever get away with this if they had just been in contact with her the same evening she went missing ???

Because they are dumb?

 

[Madeleine74]

Originally Posted by Aeronomy

I agree. I've never really understood why everyone zoomed in on TM so quickly. Evidence unknown to us at this time may point to her, but from what we have seen I don't see why she is being or has been seen as the most likely one behind Heather's murder/disappearance (though I do believe she is no longer alive).

It's probably the level of crassness that had people hating TM so much until she was arrested (and then she was hated because she allegedly killed Heather). Again it's all about archetypes.

TM embodies qualities very much disliked: a braggart, a liar, the "I'm better than you," the one-upmanship, vulgarness, bullying of a heartbroken family whose daughter is murdered, lack of empathy, sounding gleeful about the murdered young woman, controlling, desperate. And sorry to say but looks matter too. TM was(is) the old(er) worn out, bitter, angry hag in contrast with Heather, the beautiful, young, ingenue-type. Sidney was seen as "the prize," the one each woman wanted. Instead of blaming her husband for his infidelity and lack of appropriate boundaries and trampling marriage vows, the other woman is seen as the primary and maybe sole enemy in this scenario. Women often don't understand the lack of character of their own spouse *is* the major issue when cheating occurs. He is the one who is married, he is the one who needs to remain faithful.

SM is much more of the blank slate. Because he doesn't use social media very much, if at all, and because he wasn't spending time on the Internet and creating one or more personas and acting out verbally, there was nothing else to assign him other than "married guy who cheated." Now he's "married guy who cheated and maybe also killed that young woman, along with his evil nasty controlling wife who attempted to control every move he made."

 

[SStarr33]

Because they are dumb?

and/or were drunk. Clearly TM has a problem with impulse control

 

[tabinmaine]

Because they are dumb?

Well yes I "get" that, but there is dumb....and then there is "really dumb"... and quite honestly, since they have not been able to solve this missing person case, find a body or even have a means of death .... I don't think TM and SM are really all that "dumb"

 

[Madeleine74]

One of the things that has crossed my mind ever since I started reading about this case over a year ago is this :

Why would TM & SM, no matter who was in control/possession of what phones, continue to text back and forth and make phone calls or answer phone calls from HE's phone ?

I mean if you are planning on killing or kidnapping someone, would you not try to limit, if not AVOID, all contact with that person? You know the LE are going to look at you first, how did they think they could ever get away with this if they had just been in contact with her the same evening she went missing ???

Yes! Adding even more evidence to show contact with your victim right up to the time of her disappearance doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do at all. And going to the trouble of using a payphone implies you don't want there to be proof that you are the one who had recent contact.

As for intelligence in disposing or hiding a body... it's not that impossible when you live in an area that has a lot of places like waterways, swamps, woods, thickets of trees, abandoned wells, septic tanks and who knows what else. Sometimes it's a matter of dumb luck and that luck hasn't run out (yet).

 

[Ghostwheel]

Ghostwheel, FWIW, on your last point, Tammy's mother said they were together the entire night and she also said they came home at 3:00.

I do remember, but which one would I go with? They were together the entire night, or that they came home at 3:00am? :waitasec:

 

[Aeronomy]

Very, very interesting to consider.

Now to ponder, why would she stay with him if he was totally the mastermind behind this and responsible for every little bit? I don't get that.

There's a lot I don't get either.

NOT THAT I BELIEVE THIS, but maybe TM really doesn't know anything concrete and he's playing her for a fool just as he did when he was cheating.

Madeleine74 posted earlier about really not knowing what SM felt toward Heather and vice versa and I think much the same. Not just that, but we really don't know TM's feelings for SM or how far she'd go for him or against him. Wasn't there a text mentioned in the first hearing that SM had sent to someone in the family asking for TM's forgiveness and that he was sorry for everything he's caused . . . (or something like that?) I'm really vague on it and need to go back and find a link. I'll post it if I find it.

 

[Ghostwheel]

One of the things that has crossed my mind ever since I started reading about this case over a year ago is this :

Why would TM & SM, no matter who was in control/possession of what phones, continue to text back and forth and make phone calls or answer phone calls from HE's phone ?

I mean if you are planning on killing or kidnapping someone, would you not try to limit, if not AVOID, all contact with that person? You know the LE are going to look at you first, how did they think they could ever get away with this if they had just been in contact with her the same evening she went missing ???

IF you are trying to move focus from one location to another AFTER you accidentally killed someone, then you would try to make a breadcrumb trail for LE to follow by communicating back and forth with the phone of the person you are trying to shift focus on. As a scenario:
Heather was picked up at her place by SM
They drove off and stopped and TM got in the truck (whichever one they were driving at the time)
SM and TM did something that resulted in Heather's death (on purpose or accidentally) and the M's left Heather where ever. Or one went to leave Heather where ever after they...
Went back to Heather car, one got in and drove it to PTL. The person in the truck stopped at the house to-trade up vehicles, drop something off, pick something up (like the cell phone), etc.
The one in Heather's car had Heather's phone. Both contacted each other.
The truck came by and picked up whomever was at PTL.
Everyone is looking at PTL, when the actual crime took place somewhere else.

ETA: And then there is the obvious answer that they didn't know anyone could trace them from the payphone....Heather calling the cell phone would just PROVE that she was harassing SM.

 

[Ghostwheel]

It's probably the level of crassness that had people hating TM so much until she was arrested (and then she was hated because she allegedly killed Heather). Again it's all about archetypes.

TM embodies qualities very much disliked: a braggart, a liar, the "I'm better than you," the one-upmanship, vulgarness, bullying of a heartbroken family whose daughter is murdered, lack of empathy, sounding gleeful about the murdered young woman, controlling, desperate. And sorry to say but looks matter too. TM was(is) the old(er) worn out, bitter, angry hag in contrast with Heather, the beautiful, young, ingenue-type. Sidney was seen as "the prize," the one each woman wanted. Instead of blaming her husband for his infidelity and lack of appropriate boundaries and trampling marriage vows, the other woman is seen as the primary and maybe sole enemy in this scenario. Women often don't understand the lack of character of their own spouse *is* the major issue when cheating occurs. He is the one who is married, he is the one who needs to remain faithful.

SM is much more of the blank slate. Because he doesn't use social media very much, if at all, and because he wasn't spending time on the Internet and creating one or more personas and acting out verbally, there was nothing else to assign him other than "married guy who cheated." Now he's "married guy who cheated and maybe also killed that young woman, along with his evil nasty controlling wife who attempted to control every move he made."

BBM: :floorlaugh: There must be slim pickin's in that neighborhood....

 

[rtjedarling]

I always wondered if SM saw HE out with her date that night and couldn`t handle it. It is odd that he would call from a pay phone almost right after she was dropped off by her date. That may be what prompted him to come out and tell her that he was leaving TM and wanted to be with her. He couldn`t bear the thought of her being with someone else. He was ready to do anything to be with her. Maybe she turned him down about seeing him that night and then he went on home. After a while HE thought it over and decided to call him and when she couldn't reach him back at the pay phone number which she probably didn`t know was a pay phone. When she couldn`t get him at that number, she tried his cell phone. The first call didn`t get answered, but, when she called back the second time, TM knew it was HE and probably told him to answer it and put the speaker on so she could hear what was going on. That is when, maybe, PTL was put into the plan. Just trying to come up with some explanation. Who showed up at PTL in the truck if it was one or both of them, we will probably never know.

It does seem as something caused urgency that night, because if this were thought out and it may have been to some degree, but something pushed it for a showdown that night. Else why answer a call from Heathers phone if she is calling and especially have a 4 minute convo if you're carrying out a long thought out plan to kill her. You would wait and carry out your plan another time. What can the Ms say about that 4 min convo - well she called and we took 4 mins to tell her to stop calling after Sidney already called her from a pay phone to tell her stop calling (of course BW is saying something different). He said I don't want you and she went to PTL and jumped in with her phone and floated away after trying to call him back a few times, or maybe they'll say Heather took 4 mins to tell Sidney I have another man and I've decided to meet him right now and run away forever and toss my phone but I'll be sure to call you again a few more times after 3 am before I do. That just does not make sense.

And if Heather and Sidney had sex at some point in her car, his DNA certainly may be found there.

 

[tabinmaine]

I snipped this from the timeline of events... here is what I see could have happened :

• 1:35am: SM called Heather from a pay phone on 10th Avenue North; the call lasted 4.83 minutes (SM is alone, on foot, no car, fight with TM about HE while they were out drinking, wants to go see Heather at her apt)

• 1:44am: From her apartment, Heather called her roommate BW, who was in Florida, and spoke for 2.2 minutes; was crying and upset after the call from SM because she was trying to get her life back together after her affair with him and harassment by TM (she does not tell her friend that he is on his way over though, she is embarrassed that she has agreed to see him again and leaves that out of the conversation, maybe she is upset because she is not sure what to do)

• 1:53-2:09am: Ten posts were made to Heather's Tumblr (this is what young girls do when they want to distract themselves, or are stuck waiting for something to happen, she was waiting for him to show up at her place)

• 2:29am: Heather tried to call SM back at the pay phone number several times, but no one answered (she called because a hr has passed and he is still not there)


This is the time frame.. 2:30-3:15am... where I see SM doing something to HE, he had 45 min, I think he got to the apt via foot or taxi and a crime was committed

• 3:16am: Heather tried to call SM's cell phone, no answer (so I think at this point SM has allegedly killed HE, he panics and calls TM on his cell knowing she has his phone, he used HE's phone because he has NO choice, he also may not have known TM's cell # by heart but knew his own)

• 3:17am: Heather called SM's cell phone and spoke with someone for 4.15 minutes; Heather's and SM's phones were each at their own homes at this point (he finally gets a hold of TM..she is at their home ....he tells her what happened and says he is going to bring HE in her own car to PTL, to meet him there, he picks her up, her keys and phone and gets into her car)


• ~3:21am: Heather drove from her apartment to Peachtree Landing (this was SM driving with HE in the car )

• 3:36am: A security camera at a private residence 1.7 miles from the M home recorded a distinctive late-model Ford F150 coming from that direction and heading toward Peachtree Landing

• 3:38-3:39am: Heather had arrived at Peachtree Landing and tried to call SM's cell phone four times, but there was no answer (again, it's SM calling TM frantically)

• 3:39am: A security camera at a business 1.2 miles from Peachtree Landing recorded the Ford F150 heading toward the landing

• 3:41am: All data and GPS signals ended on Heather's phone (TM gets there, they put HE in their truck and her keys, lock the car up and TM tells SM to get rid of HE's phone, which is put in the water to immediately shut off GPS signals)

• 3:45am: The security camera at the same business location recorded the Ford F150 returning from the direction of Peachtree Landing

• 3:46am: The security camera at the same private residence recorded the Ford F150 returning from the direction of Peachtree Landing toward the M home (but I don't believe they go right home, I believe they take care of HE's body/purse and keys first, if you look at the map they may have headed back towards their home but they could have turned right by their driveway and headed out to another street)

 

[Madeleine74]

BBM: :floorlaugh: There must be slim pickin's in that neighborhood....

Heather was swooning over him in her Twitter posts, she was *very* attracted to him & made that quite graphically clear. And we've seen how TM has acted as well.

 

[Aeronomy]

I always wondered if SM saw HE out with her date that night and couldn`t handle it. It is odd that he would call from a pay phone almost right after she was dropped off by her date. That may be what prompted him to come out and tell her that he was leaving TM and wanted to be with her. He couldn`t bear the thought of her being with someone else. He was ready to do anything to be with her. Maybe she turned him down about seeing him that night and then he went on home. After a while HE thought it over and decided to call him and when she couldn't reach him back at the pay phone number which she probably didn`t know was a pay phone. When she couldn`t get him at that number, she tried his cell phone. The first call didn`t get answered, but, when she called back the second time, TM knew it was HE and probably told him to answer it and put the speaker on so she could hear what was going on. That is when, maybe, PTL was put into the plan. Just trying to come up with some explanation. Who showed up at PTL in the truck if it was one or both of them, we will probably never know.

That's been one of my posing theories as well Dixie E. It's really my only theory that puts TM as the one that killed her and it's that last unexpected phone call that made a big difference. In one of my theories, SM, scared as all get-out of what could happen, takes his time to PTL while arguing with TM, he arrives, Heather hops in and TM goes crazy screaming at her from behind the seat and proceeds to choke the life out of Heather. Freaking out, SM speeds out of there.

 

[Ghostwheel]

There's a lot I don't get either.

NOT THAT I BELIEVE THIS, but maybe TM really doesn't know anything concrete and he's playing her for a fool just as he did when he was cheating.

Madeleine74 posted earlier about really not knowing what SM felt toward Heather and vice versa and I think much the same. Not just that, but we really don't know TM's feelings for SM or how far she'd go for him or against him. Wasn't there a text mentioned in the first hearing that SM had sent to someone in the family asking for TM's forgiveness and that he was sorry for everything he's caused . . . (or something like that?) I'm really vague on it and need to go back and find a link. I'll post it if I find it.

There was one about how SM $%^& TM over from SM to TM's sister. From http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?239289-Sidney-amp-Tammy-s-recovered-texts-social-media-postings-from-bond-hearing-3-17

Picture here[URL="http://imgur.com/a/1lVsi#73"]http://imgur.com/a/1lVsi#73[/URL]

The only thing I can point to as a fact is that TM hasn't worked in forever, if ever. If she doesn't have SM to support her, especially if he is in jail, would she be able to support herself? That would be enough for some women to keep their man close...cough....

 

[rtjedarling]

from tabinmaine-3:16am: Heather tried to call SM's cell phone, no answer (so I think at this point SM has allegedly killed HE, he panics and calls TM on his cell knowing she has his phone, he used HE's phone because he has NO choice, he also may not have known TM's cell # by heart but knew his own)

and he may have called his own phone from Heathers rather than TMs so he could say Heather kept calling me though I asked her to stop especially since he has her phone and sees she talked to BW after he called from pay phone and that Heather had tried back the pay phone.