Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[threecrazykids]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...rating-20140108,0,4831276.story#axzz2pr1igRfO

SBM as I have a question for the medical professionals:

Bodies of the brain-dead have been maintained on respirators for months or, in rare cases, years. However, once cessation of all brain activity is confirmed, there is no recovery, Rebecca S. Dresser, professor of law and ethics in medicine at Washington University in St. Louis, told The Times.

Dresser also served on a presidential bioethics council that in 2008 reaffirmed "whole-brain death" as legal death.

Brain cells die without blood flow and autopsies in such cases have shown the brain liquefies.

To the first bolded:
So this circus could go on for YEARS? How is that even possible if she's deteriorating at this pace? This comment was (assuming) based on documented cases - so what makes Jahi's case different than those others - how did they keep those bodies sustained and Jahi's won't?

Also - and please forgive me for the morbidity of this question but I really want to know - Is it possible for her brain itself to completely liquify and drain from her skull and these machines keep the rest of her body functioning to the point her parents could keep them on if her heart is still beating?

Also - another disgusting question but is this liquifying of the brain something that would be visible out of her orifices as in draining out of her nose/ears?

Sorry for the morbid questions but this medical stuff is fascinating to me.:blushing:

 

[meanmaryjean]

OK- here's what DDAVP really is:

(2S)-N-[(2R)-1-[(2-amino-2-oxoethyl)amino]-5-
(diaminomethylideneamino)-1-oxopentan-2-yl]-1-
[(4R,7S,10S,13S,16S)-7-(2-amino-2-oxoethyl)-10-
(3-amino-3-oxopropyl)-16-[(4-hydroxyphenyl)methyl]-
6,9,12,15,18-pentaoxo-13-(phenylmethyl)1,2-dithia-
5,8,11,14,17-pentazacycloicosane-4-carbonyl]
pyrrolidine-2-carboxamide

You're sorry you asked now, aren't you?????

 

[Nore]

I know it would be expensive, but another MRI/brain scan might show the mother and family how much worse Jahi's condition really is. As a mother and RN, I would want to be present to view the MRI on screen as the imaging is done. I have seen one before and you can actually see blood cells flowing through the vessels of the body. It is amazing.

-----------
Thank you Isabelle, the hospital did this with my husband less than 24 hrs. after an aneurysm. They also did a C~SCAN.. both showed no function. Two days later I removed the life support. I sat down, put my head on his chest and heard the last beat~our son had a basilar artery stroke, on life, came off heart continued to beat. Cortex wide open. No, he survived 3 1/2 years.This poor family is in complete denial. God help her mother.

 

[meanmaryjean]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...rating-20140108,0,4831276.story#axzz2pr1igRfO

SBM as I have a question for the medical professionals:

Bodies of the brain-dead have been maintained on respirators for months or, in rare cases, years. However, once cessation of all brain activity is confirmed, there is no recovery, Rebecca S. Dresser, professor of law and ethics in medicine at Washington University in St. Louis, told The Times.

Dresser also served on a presidential bioethics council that in 2008 reaffirmed "whole-brain death" as legal death.

Brain cells die without blood flow and autopsies in such cases have shown the brain liquefies.

To the first bolded:
So this circus could go on for YEARS? How is that even possible if she's deteriorating at this pace? This comment was (assuming) based on documented cases - so what makes Jahi's case different than those others - how did they keep those bodies sustained and Jahi's won't?

Also - and please forgive me for the morbidity of this question but I really want to know - Is it possible for her brain itself to completely liquify and drain from her skull and these machines keep the rest of her body functioning to the point her parents could keep them on if her heart is still beating?

Also - another disgusting question but is this liquifying of the brain something that would be visible out of her orifices as in draining out of her nose/ears?

Sorry for the morbid questions but this medical stuff is fascinating to me.:blushing:

BBM: PLEASE read my above post.

 

[Isabelle]

The mother reported early on that she had done Jahi's nails a pink color with glitter.

From 12/21/13 http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24775261/jahi-her-mom-and-13-days-at-childrens
"On Saturday, Winkfield painted Jahi's fingernails and toenails pink with silver sparkles.
"She always liked to match," her mom said with a smile. The family have placed prayer beads around Jahi's wrist, diamond earrings in her ears and they pump a steady dose of Chris Brown and Beyoncé into her earbuds from her iPod.
"Her blood pressure goes up with the fast songs," her mother said. Winkfield said her daughter twitches when she runs her finger along her feet and other areas."

Would like to witness the elevated heart rate in response to fast music. This should not happen. Could be just a coincidence.

 

[Herat]

I just hope Uncle O hasn't spent it all, already........

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

St. Jude's is world-renowned and treats primarily (possibly exclusively) childhood cancers.

A question was asked about whether or not there's a St. Jude's affiliate in CA or a neighboring state and if said facility might care for a brain-dead child. I think that we're all wondering where Jahi is and grasping at straws to find the information

 

[Quester]

Experts: Brain-dead teen's victory won't set precedent

... Dr. Art Caplan, head of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center,
estimates that it costs between $7,500 and $11,000 per day to keep someone on life support.

... Caplan added that hospitals and other facilities have limited beds, and that
major religions often "reject doing this to a body." ...

http://www.thespectrum.com/usatoday/article/4386597

 

[Leilei]

'hrk hrk hrk'

*pats Minette on the back*

Cough it up, sweetie!

 

[Herat]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...rating-20140108,0,4831276.story#axzz2pr1igRfO




Is it possible for her brain itself to completely liquify and drain from her skull and these machines keep the rest of her body functioning to the point her parents could keep them on if her heart is still beating?

Also - another disgusting question but is this liquifying of the brain something that would be visible out of her orifices as in draining out of her nose/ears?

Sorry for the morbid questions but this medical stuff is fascinating to me.:blushing:

No, and No, unless there was some very significant trauma or unclosed or unhealed surgical brain incision that caused disruption of the dura mater.

 

[Miziree]

I also just want to say I would do the surgery now even after reading this case. It has helped my children a lot. My son was very small (he grew a foot in the year after surgery) snorned very loudly (no snoring now at all) was doing very poorly in school (straight As since) was mouth breathing (this has stopped) and struggled to breathe noticeably when sleeping (again this is gone). My first daughter had no snoring but severe apnea on sleep study (worse then her brother) slept walked and night terrors (stopped) and severe headaches everyday (stopped). My last child only snored which is gone. None of my kids were or are overweight and are otherwise healthy.

I really hope this case does not prevent other families from getting this surgery.

Moo

 

[ItsJustaName]

I tend to think that Jahi is in a small long-term care facility like a nursing home or hospice. That said, this type of facility probably doesn't have surgical capabilities, so I'm having trouble reconciling where the trach and g-tube procedures would have been performed. It's also possible that Jahi is in a private home, perhaps a relative or family friend, with licensed medical personnel attending to her 24/7. :moo:

ETA: The Fullerton facility does not appear to be part of the St. Jude Children's Research Hospital network.

http://www.stjudemedicalcenter.org/About-Us.aspx

I agree. I can't imagine any reputable facility would want the inevitable publicity.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Would like to witness the elevated heart rate in response to fast music. This should not happen. Could be just a coincidence.

Jahi's mother "wants" desperately to believe that her daughter is responding to various stimuli - music, touch, voices - but I doubt that it's true. :moo:

That said, do individuals on ventilators tend to exhibit heart arrhythmias?

 

[Donjeta]

So this circus could go on for YEARS? How is that even possible if she's deteriorating at this pace? This comment was (assuming) based on documented cases - so what makes Jahi's case different than those others - how did they keep those bodies sustained and Jahi's won't?

IIRC it was the study by Alan Shewmon, quoted somewhere in these threads, about the long term ventilated brain dead, that said those brain dead whose brain death was caused by primary brain damage "survived" longer than those who had more systemic problems (eg. a cardiac arrest.)

He defined long term in the study as more than a week, and the majority of the cases only took weeks or months for the heart to stop.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM: PLEASE read my above post.

Thank you - I guess I don't understand then.

Either it liquifies or scar tissue forms (replacing what was once the brain) - but I don't equate scar tissue with liquid so something isn't adding up for me...

 

[Herat]

Jahi's mother "wants" desperately to believe that her daughter is responding to various stimuli - music, touch, voices - but I doubt that it's true. :moo:

That said, do individuals on ventilators tend to exhibit heart arrhythmias?

Since there is no auditory cortex, she cannot "hear". Since there is no auditory cortex, it can't interact with processing centers and excite the heart or any other organ. There might be some percussive effect where the vibration is physically stimulating the heart, just as if you put a speaker on your chest, but it isn't hearing. jeesh.

The reaction to the foot scratching is a spinal reflex not at all reflecting brain funtion and I'm sure the family has been told this more than a hundred times already. It's just another piece of verified medical information they are chosing to ignore.

Arrhythmias can occur from many reasons (cardiac conduction cell damage like from an infarct or hypotension, electrolye imbalances, oxygen deprivation or chronic hypoxemia). Certainly could have arrythmias with or without adequate mechanical ventilation.

 

[Herat]

Thank you - I guess I don't understand then. Someone is wrong or I just don't understand.

Either it liquifies or scar tissue forms (replacing what was once the brain) - but I don't equate scar tissue with liquid so something isn't adding up for me...

In the case of brain death, it liquefies.

In the case of lesser degrees of damage, such as persistent vegetative states, the brain generally atrophies and functional cortex is replaced by the brain's version of scar tissue.

Scar tissue in the brain is not dense like a keloid in the skin. It's just atrophy and replacement of functional neuronal tissue by non-conducting cells that can have no CNS functional activity.

 

[txsvicki]

I'd like to see cases stories of any brain dead who survived for years, and when it was.

 

[jaxibear]

This is nothing really new, but I just keep thinking how terrible it's going to be for this family when her heart does stop. I guess it's possible they'll have peace that they did everything they could, but IMO the more likely scenario is that all the grief they haven't been letting themselves feel while fighting this and holding out false hope is going to come crashing down. Bad enough to lose your child, worse to keep hoping and hoping and taking extreme steps and then to have nothing at the end of it. They've replaced the grieving process with fighting to "save" her. I know that their lives will never be the same after this, but in all my experiences with loss, it's only the getting on with life that eventually allows things to get better. They haven't done that, and instead have put their whole focus on her and an impossible hope of her recovery. IMO, that's going to make the inevitable even harder to bear, and it's already such an unbelievable loss.

That's JMO, and I certainly hope it's not true and that they will just have peace when it happens. But I think it's part of why it makes me so angry that there are people continuing to fill them with hope about this instead of assisting in the grieving process.

MOO.

Agreed. I sincerely hope that her siblings will not be in need of any kind of surgery any time in the near future. I can't imagine the terror they would have.

I really do feel for this family.

 

[Donjeta]

Thank you - I guess I don't understand then.

Either it liquifies or scar tissue forms (replacing what was once the brain) - but I don't equate scar tissue with liquid so something isn't adding up for me...

Maybe this will help a bit:

Liquefactive necrosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For unclear reasons, hypoxic death of cells within the central nervous system also results in liquefactive necrosis.[1] This is a process in which lysosomes turn tissues into soup as a result of lysosomal release of digestive enzymes. Loss of tissue architecture means that the tissue is essentially liquefied.