Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[Donjeta]

In the case of brain death, it liquefies.

In the case of lesser degrees of damage, such as persistent vegetative states, the brain generally atrophies and functional cortex is replaced by the brain's version of scar tissue.

Scar tissue in the brain is not dense like a keloid in the skin. It's just atrophy and replacement of functional neuronal tissue by non-conducting cells that can have no CNS functional activity.

And the non-conducting cells wouldn't last forever without any cerebral perfusion either.

 

[Karmady]

In the case of brain death, it liquefies.

In the case of lesser degrees of damage, such as persistent vegetative states, the brain generally atrophies and functional cortex is replaced by the brain's version of scar tissue.

Scar tissue in the brain is not dense like a keloid in the skin. It's just atrophy and replacement of functional neuronal tissue by non-conducting cells that can have no CNS functional activity.

I guessing you know this, but, apparently, it's called "respirator brain"

From the link (there are photos there, as well)

Severe and protracted HIE damages the cortex, deep nuclei, and brainstem, resulting in brain death. If such a patient is put on the respirator, the brain (under normal body temperature) undergoes an enzymatic autodigestion which may end in liquefaction. The term"respirator brain" that has been applied in such cases is misleading because the autolysis is not caused by the respirator. The term "non-perfused brain" is more accurate. Because circulation is arrested and all metabolic activity ceases, the non-perfused brain does not show any reactive changes (inflammation, macrophages, gliosis), only autolysis. Imaging reveals hypodensity due to edema and disintegration of brain tissue without enhancement.

http://neuropathology-web.org/chapter2/chapter2aHIE.html

 

[Nore]

California teen declared brain dead gets feeding, breathing tubes

... Sealey told reporters Monday that Jahi traveled by ground from Children's Hospital to the unnamed facility and there were no complications in the transfer, suggesting she may still be in California.

... "If her heart stops beating while she is on the respirator, we can accept that because it means she is done fighting," he said. "We couldn't accept them pulling the plug on her early."

http://www.fox8live.com/story/24405...lared-brain-dead-gets-feeding-breathing-tubes

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I hope someone can answer this question. Is there any law about keeping a brain dead person in a hospital? Even though the heart and lungs are "functioning" would other types of decomp continue? The brain its self for example. Decomp liquifies it. Would that still happen? I hope this is not out of line, but I wonder. We need Dr. G. here..:loveyou:

 

[threecrazykids]

In the case of brain death, it liquefies.

In the case of lesser degrees of damage, such as persistent vegetative states, the brain generally atrophies and functional cortex is replaced by the brain's version of scar tissue.

Scar tissue in the brain is not dense like a keloid in the skin. It's just atrophy and replacement of functional neuronal tissue by non-conducting cells that can have no CNS functional activity.

Well, THAT makes sense to the idiot who knows zero about medical terms. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: Just kidding

:slap:

Layman's terms maybe will help me? If not, I'll just move on and know that her brain won't literally drain out.

When I think of scar tissue I reference when I had knee surgery. Obviously WAY different than brain tissue - but I can still feel that scar tissue, which is hardened tissue or lumpy matter under the skin.

I guess I just don't understand how scar tissue can equal a liquid - but know you all are right, I just don't get it because I've never seen or experienced it. :blushing:

 

[Yoda]

I guessing you know this, but, apparently, it's called "respirator brain"

From the link (there are photos there, as well)

Severe and protracted HIE damages the cortex, deep nuclei, and brainstem, resulting in brain death. If such a patient is put on the respirator, the brain (under normal body temperature) undergoes an enzymatic autodigestion which may end in liquefaction. The term"respirator brain" that has been applied in such cases is misleading because the autolysis is not caused by the respirator. The term "non-perfused brain" is more accurate. Because circulation is arrested and all metabolic activity ceases, the non-perfused brain does not show any reactive changes (inflammation, macrophages, gliosis), only autolysis. Imaging reveals hypodensity due to edema and disintegration of brain tissue without enhancement.

http://neuropathology-web.org/chapter2/chapter2aHIE.html

Over my head.

 

[Karmady]

Over my head.

In a nutshell, when you put a brain-dead person on a respirator/ventilator, the brain "autodigests" itself (destroys itself with enzymes). The autodigestion continues causing the brain to soften and, ultimately, liquefy if the mechanical intervention continues long enough. Medical professionals please correct me if I'm reading that incorrectly. jmo

eta: lol'ing at the image. That's me MOST of the time!

 

[Quester]

There's a Second Tragedy in the [JM] Story

... The people who work in this hospital are angels and heroes to many, many families like mine. Children's Hospital and Research Center in Oakland distributed 139 million dollars of charity care and benefits in 2012.

Seventy-five percent of the pediatricians working at the hospital are on the "Best Doctors in America" list. Lives are literally being saved every day at this hospital. ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

 

[threecrazykids]

Over my head.

LMAO! EXACTLY :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Herat]

The brain doesn't have the kind of tissue that scars like your skin or any kind of tissue that makes lumps you can feel, other than the membranes that cover the surface. When it is completely deprived of blood flow and oxygenated blood, as occurs in brain death, the cells die completely and fall apart into a structureless amalgum of soft liquid material. (autolysis).

When there is damage, but not complete cell death, some cells degenerate and there are only a few functioning cells left. It's as if you had millions of electrical cords plugging into milliions of electical outlets. Then have 80% of the electical cords lose their electrical prongs and there is nothing to plug into the outlets. They might still look like electrical cords, but no lights are going to go on, nothing is going to happen. This is more like what happens in lesser degrees of brain injury such as persistent vegetative states.

And I'm done with commenting on this subject. I think people are obsessing about the unpleasant physical aspects and I don't think that's respectful.

 

[Karmady]

There's a Second Tragedy in the [JM] Story

... The people who work in this hospital are angels and heroes to many, many families like mine. Children's Hospital and Research Center in Oakland distributed 139 million dollars of charity care and benefits in 2012.

Seventy-five percent of the pediatricians working at the hospital are on the "Best Doctors in America" list. Lives are literally being saved every day at this hospital. ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

So glad to see that!

 

[vlpate]

I wonder if Jahi was ever taken to the hospital for other issues and suffered episodes of sleep apnea while in the hospital. There were so many drugs in the bag her mother was carrying...seems excessive for a child. In this video she mentions how she never had trouble getting her children's medical records before...I'm curious if other hospital visits have been mentioned before that I haven't caught.

 

[swilla2]

:truce:

I wonder if Jahi was ever taken to the hospital for other issues and suffered episodes of sleep apnea while in the hospital. There were so many drugs in the bag her mother was carrying...seems excessive for a child. In this video she mentions how she never had trouble getting her children's medical records before...I'm curious if other hospital visits have been mentioned before that I haven't caught.

I'm thinking those meds may be the mom's. Looks like there is an inhaler in the bag. Maybe she brought them in case she was away from home a long time (which I guess she was, if she had been at the hospital).

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your knowledge and insight with us. We are all learning, while also feeling mad, sad, confused, angry, etc.

Have tried to read every post, so this has probably been suggested, but has anyone considered that Jahi is in Mexico? talked to my partner last night at length about this story and the first thing he said was Mexico.

Also, I had surgery (with general anesthesia) in late November and there was nothing at all said to ask me not to wear nail polish - in fact, the nurses talked about my fun polish. Nose stud had to come out, but zilch about nail polish FWIW.

 

[Quester]

The Science Behind Brain Death

... The parents of [JM] “are hoping their daughter will recover and asking to reverse a decision that isn’t under human control,” he said. “In the Munoz case, the family is asking to reverse a decision that is under human control, and has to do with whether the mother would want to be a mother under these circumstances.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/health/the-science-behind-brain-death.html?_r=0

 

[jaxibear]

There's a Second Tragedy in the [JM] Story

... The people who work in this hospital are angels and heroes to many, many families like mine. Children's Hospital and Research Center in Oakland distributed 139 million dollars of charity care and benefits in 2012.

Seventy-five percent of the pediatricians working at the hospital are on the "Best Doctors in America" list. Lives are literally being saved every day at this hospital. ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

OMG that made me cry. It is disgusting to me that the reputation of this hospital and its doctors is being trashed before anyone knows the true story.

I know they could not save Jahi's life, but they save countless others every single day. It's a tragedy that fact is getting lost.

 

[Softail]

OMG that made me cry. It is disgusting to me that the reputation of this hospital and its doctors is being trashed before anyone knows the true story.

I know they could not save Jahi's life, but they save countless others every single day. It's a tragedy that fact is getting lost.

I'm not so sure it is as lost as you think. From what I have read in the comments of various news reports, people seem more on the side of common sense, and "get" this entire situation. At least I hope that is true for the sake of the hospital. :twocents:

 

[Nore]

Would like to witness the elevated heart rate in response to fast music. This should not happen. Could be just a coincidence.

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Hi again, I dont want an answer but I think this might mean the ventilator is malfunctioning. IMO.

 

[Ribbit]

Cardiac dead people are being discriminated against. Everyone just talks about the brain dead and the comatose and the vegetative individuals but the cardiac dead are no less deserving of a miracle than the brain damaged and their families. So they should all be fitted with a heart - lung machine.
Cardiopulmonary bypass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about decapitated people. Shouldn't they be fitted with heart and lung machines? It's only fair.

 

[katydid23]

There's a Second Tragedy in the [JM] Story

... The people who work in this hospital are angels and heroes to many, many families like mine. Children's Hospital and Research Center in Oakland distributed 139 million dollars of charity care and benefits in 2012.

Seventy-five percent of the pediatricians working at the hospital are on the "Best Doctors in America" list. Lives are literally being saved every day at this hospital. ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

My older brother is a PI and workers comp attorney in Oakland. He investigates hospitals and clinics for a living. He has a long list of doctors that he warns people to stay away from. He knows the rumors and the skeletons in the closet. He knows who is sloppy or drunk or shady.

He says that CHO is a top rate, well respected hospital and highly recommends it. He would take his own kids there and has done so over the years. So this is very sad for all concerned.

 

[Karmady]

I'm not so sure it is as lost as you think. From what I have read in the comments of various news reports, people seem more on the side of common sense, and "get" this entire situation. At least I hope that is true for the sake of the hospital. :twocents:

I agree. The support for this is vocal, but very much in the minority imo. Thank goodness. jmo