FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

[Safeguard]

Yikes! With neighbors like that I guess you would have to always be on guard. Have you heard anything about their family Will or inheritance?

It's true. Matt was always hurting animals and younger kids in the neighborhood. The police were called at their home countless times.

I had to call the police once myself when he came into my yard and hit my four year old son in the face with an ice ball.
It was last mean thing he ever did to us. Personally, looking back I feel kind of lucky, knowing he was capable so much worse...

I actually moved before Matt committed that murder I don't really know anything about their family finances if they did have a will I'm sure they didn't have much to leave..

If you meant this case, Nikolas cruz, I have heard the mom had a sizable amount of money, but I have no idea why he would work at the dollar store, and not have his own place, if he inherited that kind of money?

 

[Meryl12]

That is what it is all about, isn't it mpnola.
There are lots of reasons for the unbalanced brain:-
Fetal Alcohol Distress Syndrome FASD. Many women consume alcohol unaware that they are pregnant. A month later when they realise that they are pregnant -- it is already too late. Some don't stop alcohol even then.!!
Lots of chemicals, DDT, herbicides etc. not to mention an assortment of drugs.
There are also heredity factors.
These days they all live in the community with everyone else, and everyone suffers.
There is no answer. Only well funded psychological support which is unlikely to happen.

 

[CARIIS]

I don't know if anyone has found out anything about the adoption of the two, but I read one article that said the older one was adopted around age 2 and the brother (half brother actually) was younger and they were adopted at the same time. I wonder if they came from one of those orphanages overseas or from an original birth parent with psychosis. I have not read anything about the adoption in detail and wonder if this was one of those overseas adoptions.

I was reading the threatening texts that some of the classmates received via text that are being reported in Buzzfeed. Reports say he was not exactly expelled but moved to another school, then there are reports that he was moved yet again to one and perhaps another school through some other process other than expulsion. This sounds like people were terrified of him almost like the professors and students were terrified of Cho prior to the Virginia Tech shooting.

The NY Times posted this https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html . I don't know what a "threat assessment" actually is, but it seemed like an army of people over and over again tried to minimize the violence. This could have been posted earlier to if it has already, I apologize for reposting it.

he did meet criteria to get a slot in a specialized education program for the severly troubled but have been unable
to find duration date reason for changes

aLL that shuffling around in and of itself

is very disorenting to the child

 

[mpnola]

Thank you for sharing your expertise & stories, mpnola.

I think what was being debated/ discussed is when or if we need to revisit **human rights** when a documented and formally investigated hostile, mentally deranged person poses a threat to others in society & to himself. Is there an appropriate and sensible time when a person can have some of those rights to freely roam amongst the general population and bear Arms taken away? And if so, what does that process look like & where do they go?

K, so here's the thing. Rights are really strong things. It takes a whole lot, including court and human rights meetings, to remove the rights of a person. Again, think about someone taking your rights away. It isn't done carelessly.

In addition to that, I talked about this some yesterday- a person has to be an IMMINENT (immediate) threat to themselves or someone else, in order to detain them. There are all kinds of questions a counselor or social worker would ask to determine this. It used to be fairly easy for me to get someone admitted. In Louisiana, we actually go to the coroner's office and tell them why we needed a order of protective custody for a person. If they agreed that the person seemed dangerous, they would basically come, put them in handcuffs and bring them to the hospital (it always made me cry cause they would want me to help and didn't understand, but that was the only approved way to transport). They would sometimes stay for 3 days, sometimes 2 weeks, sometimes end up in the state hospital. That was when I had the homes that were strictly mental health homes. Then, the sudden yank of all mh homes made it much less possible. The hospital social workers were given much stricter guidelines to admit. More often than not, if they did not have an immediate plan of harm, they were released.

This all has to do with funding. In Louisiana (and probably most states), most areas are untouchable and protected, funding cannot be cut. The only available, unprotected and open categories are healthcare and education. Makes sense, right? (Extreme sarcasm). So they made big cuts. And mental health paid the ultimate price. The system literally no longer exists. I went from having 5 mental health homes to 1 in one year. All funding was yanked. All my guys were turned out into the streets. Literally.

Do I think the answer is more taxes? No. I think the answer is not having protected categories. Using the money wisely. Not spending $30,000 on a week long business trip. Whatever. I always say let a single mama look at that budget! We don't look for more money, we look for all the ways our money is leaking out where it isn't necessary. That's all my opinion. The link is to my brain.

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[ATasteOfHoney]

From so many vantage points, it doesn't really matter if the adoption was international or domestic. First, domestic (non-private) and international adoptions have lower rates of comprehensive prenatal health care and FAS. The situations are much more tenuous and poverty (access to healthcare, nutrition, vitamins, etc) is a huge issue in many domestic and international adoptions. In international adoptions a potential issue for development and bonding comes in the form of children living in an institution with less than adequate caregiving compounded with inadequate prenatal care. For those who have asked, yes, adoptive parents are counseled about potential issues that can and do occur. That said, when you are wanting a baby (through pregnancy or adoption) you never think you will be the person to miscarry, have a child with a genetic anomaly, or adopt a child with unknown health/developmental issue. Adoptive parents start out like biological parents--thinking about the great and wonderful aspects of raising a perfect and wonderful child. People who adopt children with disabilities (even those who adopt with some known disabilities and get surprised by undiagnosed ones) are also counseled-- but again many APs think they will get the lesser disability or consequences of a disability. So, yes, we know but we dream just like all parents do.

My understanding is that this family took custody these boys when they were days old. If his brother is bio to him and was in custody at two days old, then it is impossible that this was international. Children in international adoptions (back then in differing ways than today) have to have paperwork that proves abandonment, health certifications, etc. There is no way a two day old or very young infant would be able to enter the US that quickly-- four months was incredibly young (and, exceedingly rare) back in the late 1990s. If the bio or half-bio is correct and if the two day old photo story is correct, they had to be born in the US. I have experience with international adoption, many adoptive parents would give their eye teeth to hold their child at 2 days or a week old.

Biological mother drug use, stress level (including trauma related to trafficking or rape), access to care, maternal mental health/functioning, and generational care are all factors in delivering a healthy baby. When factors for an optimal pregnancy are compromised, a baby can be born with health or developmental issues. If that same baby is born with drug related or alcohol related withdrawal issues, we have prenatal factors and newborn factors to contend with. All of a child's issues are compounded if their placement in a home is erratic or changing or chaotic-- ie, with a parent who is unable to care/provide for them in love/food/shelter, a foster home with many children with many needs, or an orphanage with too few caregivers or too little food. Yes, adopted kids can be at a greater risk for mental health issues but stable, consistent homes with parents who are well counseled/educated can overcome lots just as children born to parents who don't have enough food or shelter, struggle with providing love, maintain chaotic homes, etc can be at great risk without every entering the realm of adoption.

Hope this tome helps those who are asking about country of origin or know about the adoption nightmares and are wondering about parallels.

Thank you. I think from everything I’ve read that N.C. was 2 yrs old and his half-brother was approx 3 months old when adopted.
NC showed developmental delays at 4 yrs old.

It’s unlikely they were international adoptions based on the young age of the half-brother and your info from your post.

What I see in the face of N.C. is a blankness, lack of emotion and lack of spark or soul coming from his eyes. I really wonder if there was a detachment disorder occurring as an infant and what was going on where he lived for the first two years of his life?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Comparing systems within Europe

http://www.eiumedia.com/index.php/l...y-leads-europe-in-dealing-with-mental-illness

From what I can see that study is comparing how successful countries are at keeping and integrating mentally ill people into society. It doesn't seem to address how the system deals with those who shouldn't be in the community in the first place.

 

[Inthedetails]

From so many vantage points, it doesn't really matter if the adoption was international or domestic. First, domestic (non-private) and international adoptions have lower rates of comprehensive prenatal health care and FAS. The situations are much more tenuous and poverty (access to healthcare, nutrition, vitamins, etc) is a huge issue in many domestic and international adoptions. In international adoptions a potential issue for development and bonding comes in the form of children living in an institution with less than adequate caregiving compounded with inadequate prenatal care. For those who have asked, yes, adoptive parents are counseled about potential issues that can and do occur. That said, when you are wanting a baby (through pregnancy or adoption) you never think you will be the person to miscarry, have a child with a genetic anomaly, or adopt a child with unknown health/developmental issue. Adoptive parents start out like biological parents--thinking about the great and wonderful aspects of raising a perfect and wonderful child. People who adopt children with disabilities (even those who adopt with some known disabilities and get surprised by undiagnosed ones) are also counseled-- but again many APs think they will get the lesser disability or consequences of a disability. So, yes, we know but we dream just like all parents do.

My understanding is that this family took custody these boys when they were days old. If his brother is bio to him and was in custody at two days old, then it is impossible that this was international. Children in international adoptions (back then in differing ways than today) have to have paperwork that proves abandonment, health certifications, etc. There is no way a two day old or very young infant would be able to enter the US that quickly-- four months was incredibly young (and, exceedingly rare) back in the late 1990s. If the bio or half-bio is correct and if the two day old photo story is correct, they had to be born in the US. I have experience with international adoption, many adoptive parents would give their eye teeth to hold their child at 2 days or a week old.

Biological mother drug use, stress level (including trauma related to trafficking or rape), access to care, maternal mental health/functioning, and generational care are all factors in delivering a healthy baby. When factors for an optimal pregnancy are compromised, a baby can be born with health or developmental issues. If that same baby is born with drug related or alcohol related withdrawal issues, we have prenatal factors and newborn factors to contend with. All of a child's issues are compounded if their placement in a home is erratic or changing or chaotic-- ie, with a parent who is unable to care/provide for them in love/food/shelter, a foster home with many children with many needs, or an orphanage with too few caregivers or too little food. Yes, adopted kids can be at a greater risk for mental health issues but stable, consistent homes with parents who are well counseled/educated can overcome lots just as children born to parents who don't have enough food or shelter, struggle with providing love, maintain chaotic homes, etc can be at great risk without every entering the realm of adoption.

Hope this tome helps those who are asking about country of origin or know about the adoption nightmares and are wondering about parallels.

Do you happen to know if there is an age limit for adoptive parents? These adopting parents were older, which is one reason I was wondering about international rather than national adoption. They also don't seem to have an extended family, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem but there is a risk with older parents that they could pass away/suffer illness while the adopted kids are still minors (which did indeed happen)...seems like a national agency would look into contingency plans like that. Or isn't that part of the process of getting approved?

tia.

 

[Gooddeeds]

It's true. Matt was always hurting animals and younger kids in the neighborhood. The police were called at their home countless times.

I had to call the police once myself when he came into my yard and hit my four year old son in the face with an ice ball.
It was last mean thing he ever did to us. Personally, looking back I feel kind of lucky, knowing he was capable so much worse...

I actually moved before Matt committed that murder I don't really know anything about their family finances if they did have a will I'm sure they didn't have to leave..

If you meant this case, Nikolas cruz, I have heard the mom was had a sizable amount of money, but I have no idea why he would work at the dollar store, and not have his own place, if he inherited that kind of money?

Agree, you are fortunate to have been spared.
Yes, Nikolas Cruz, this case. I don’t have a clue as to what their inheritance arrangement was. Since the mother died quickly and unexpectedly, I don’t see how she could have reviewed the details with them.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Studies show US prison population growth as off the charts, its horrible. We're ahead of every nation, with Russia just behind us. SMH. That's how we deal with more severe mental illness in the US.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9f04e6946f008cbebdfe5f3a3dfb1ae0

This chart shows the UK above the OECD average but it doesn't take into account the fact that around half of the people in UK prisons are foreign nationals, and one of the reasons there are so many foreign criminals in our prisons is that our judiciary and immigration appeals system makes it virtually impossible to deport foreign criminals regardless of how serious a threat they pose to the general population. So they have to be imprisoned instead of deported.

With EU citizens even deporting them doesn't seem to stop them coming back. This is a very recent case in point:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5402829/Homeless-man-dead-Westminster-child-abuser.html

Without all the foreign criminals in our jails, the UK would be fairly close to the bottom end of the above graph.

 

[kaen]

Thank you. I think from everything I’ve read that N.C. was 2 yrs old and his half-brother was approx 3 months old when adopted.
NC showed developmental delays at 4 yrs old.

It’s unlikely they were international adoptions based on the young age of the half-brother and your info from your post.

What I see in the face of N.C. is a blankness, lack of emotion and lack of spark or soul coming from his eyes. I really wonder if there was a detachment disorder occurring as an infant and what was going on where he lived for the first two years of his life?

You are welcome. I have a lot of friends who talk about attachment issues. But, I can say (as a person trained in the mental health field) I have only seen two or three kids with attachment disorder among adoptive kids. Is it possible? Yes, but I think the other diagnoses that have been mentioned in the media are probably closer to what is going on. We don't know if his prenatal development was affected by teratogens that compromised his development. We don't know how emotionally healthy his adoptive family was (IIRC, there were four people who showed up to his mother's funeral.) NC is complicated young man with serious mental health issues. We have reports of autism and ADHD. I am sure that there are many other issues that will be determined once his legal team has him assessed (I know they will b/c they feel he has been ill-served and are determined to prove it. They may be right even if he is still responsible for his actions.)

The picture of his mother and a baby are reported to be the killer and not his brother. Who knows though?

 

[mpnola]

From what I can see that study is comparing how successful countries are at keeping and integrating mentally ill people into society. It doesn't seem to address how the system deals with those who shouldn't be in the community in the first place.

We actually had clients (we didn't call them that, but it is just easier for the point in this discussion) who I had 2 on 1 supervision for. That means 2 staff for that 1 person. 24 hours a day. She was superhuman strong and violent. If she took off running after a person, they would have to physically restrain her. Behavior plans are in place with very specific guidance and training. Her plan said they had to be within 3 feet of her at all times. I couldn't do that job. She was exhausting!!! But 2 on 1 is almost never approved and it's only a temporary situation. She did have 1:1 24 hours a day, but that was because she was an institutional abuse case (Gary W. Case) and so she could basically get any help we needed for her.

By the way, the people who work in mental health are brilliant. They could do so much, if they were funded. They already have most of the ideas worked out. They need money and a more middle of the road allowance. Example- everyone can't lose their rights cause they have a diagnosis, but also, not everyone can live independently in an apartment with 3 hours of supervision and a roommate! We are kind of talking about some horror stories here, but I have so many beautiful success stories that it would make you smile. It's why I did it for so long. Very slow but very real progress.

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[KlaraBell]

BBM

That's a good question. Maybe they were aware of some problems, but convinced themselves that he just wasn't a good fit for the school system?

I know some people who felt that the school system brought out the worst in their children, that their kids had unique personalities and they weren't able to adapt to, thrive in, that environment, ( and sometimes it's even true!). Maybe they were using some sort of justification for some of his problems and thought that he was salvageable.

I know a family that lived right across the street from me in Fitchburg that did the same thing with their son. And they felt his personality was just incompatible with the school system the neighborhood...that he was just misunderstood...

in truth he was mean and evil and you could see it from a really young age.

When he was 19 he murdered a man for fun, in Cold Blood, on a dare basically, so we heard.
http://www.nashobavalleyvoice.com/ci_22360427/life-sentence-reinstated-2001-townsend-murder-case

(OT: I’m in that neck of the woods. Always fun to find a ‘neighbor’ online.)

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Agree, you are fortunate to have been spared.
Yes, Nikolas Cruz, this case. I don’t have a clue as to what their inheritance arrangement was. Since the mother died quickly and unexpectedly, I don’t see how she could have reviewed the details with them.

Do we know if there was even a will? She might have died intestate.

Or if there was a will was it going through probate? (Does the US have probate?)

 

[kaen]

Do you happen to know if there is an age limit for adoptive parents? These adopting parents were older, which is one reason I was wondering about international rather than national adoption. They also don't seem to have an extended family, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem but there is a risk with older parents that they could pass away/suffer illness while the adopted kids are still minors (which did indeed happen)...seems like a national agency would look into contingency plans like that. Or isn't that part of the process of getting approved?

tia.

In the 90s/00s, there were age limits but they differed from country to country in international adoptions. In Russian, determination was age differential. The parent could not be more than 45 years older than the child (at 45 you could adopt an infant, at 50 you had to adopt a child 5 or older). In China, you add the parents ages together and if the sum is 90 or greater, you can not adopt (average would be 45ish). Each country sets its own rules. In the US or FL in particular, I am not sure for state or non-private adoptions. In private adoptions, the arrangement with the relinquishing parent sets the terms of the legal agreement to adopt. In all cases, the home study is done to determine fit and eligibility for adoption and the social worker recommends the age of child that should be placed in the home.

In international adoptions, you provide financials and have to demonstrate the ability to financially care for a child (think immigration discussions about caring for a relative). In the home study, a social worker would discuss a plan for caring for the child in the event of death (regardless of age). In our case we had an agreement that my children would be cared for by one of my siblings.

The home study is comprehensive. You discuss financial ability, disability possibilities and mindsets, discipline practices, the emotional needs of an adopted child, etc. You also discuss issues that can occur if adopting transracially. At best a home study is a great way to self-assess your own readiness to parent. It is a good process. I think all parents should have to do it with a good social worker.

 

[kaen]

Do we know if there was even a will? She might have died intestate.

Or if there was a will was it going through probate? (Does the US have probate?)

Without a will, her kids would be her beneficiaries equally. I would think she had a will-- she lost her husband unexpectedly, had a home and probably had his retirement.

 

[Inthedetails]

In the 90s/00s, there were age limits but they differed from country to country in international adoptions. In Russian, determination was age differential. The parent could not be more than 45 years older than the child (at 45 you could adopt an infant, at 50 you had to adopt a child 5 or older). In China, you add the parents ages together and if the sum is 90 or greater, you can not adopt (average would be 45ish). Each country sets its own rules. In the US or FL in particular, I am not sure for state or non-private adoptions. In private adoptions, the arrangement with the relinquishing parent sets the terms of the legal agreement to adopt. In all cases, the home study is done to determine fit and eligibility for adoption and the social worker recommends the age of child that should be placed in the home.

In international adoptions, you provide financials and have to demonstrate the ability to financially care for a child (think immigration discussions about caring for a relative). In the home study, a social worker would discuss a plan for caring for the child in the event of death (regardless of age). In our case we had an agreement that my children would be cared for by one of my siblings.

The home study is comprehensive. You discuss financial ability, disability possibilities and mindsets, discipline practices, the emotional needs of an adopted child, etc. You also discuss issues that can occur if adopting transracially. At best a home study is a great way to self-assess your own readiness to parent. It is a good process. I think all parents should have to do it with a good social worker.

Thanks for the info,

The mom was older than 45, right? I'm assuming the father was too, though I don't know for sure. And they didn't seem to have plan in case of their deaths - really no support system for that mom at all. The only people who showed up for her funeral were her two sons and two friends (one of whom took the boys until NC was kicked out because he had a gun). If they have extended family, they were not close enough to even attend the funeral and we haven't seen anyone step forward.

I suppose they might have had a better support system at the time of adoption. Just seems a bit off in terms of a typical adoption within the US...though I could be the one who is off.

jmo

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Without a will, her kids would be her beneficiaries equally.

Sure, but I assume there would be a process to go through which could mean that the sons would not yet have received the money.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

If they have extended family, they were not close enough to even attend the funeral and we haven't seen anyone step forward.

I seem to remember reading that there was extended family in NY state but they had only met the boys once or twice so certainly weren't close. Also the US seems to conduct funerals very quickly, at least by UK standards, so it's very possible that other family members could not have got there in time anyway.

 

[kaen]

Thanks for the info,

The mom was older than 45, right? I'm assuming the father was too, though I don't know for sure. And they didn't seem to have plan in case of their deaths - really no support system for that mom at all. The only people who showed up for her funeral were her two sons and two friends (one of whom took the boys until NC was kicked out because he had a gun). If they have extended family, they were not close enough to even attend the funeral and we haven't seen anyone step forward.

I suppose they might have had a better support system at the time of adoption. Just seems a bit off in terms of a typical adoption within the US...though I could be the one who is off.

jmo

Just as in giving birth, a parent doesn't need a plan for financial help (although in international adoption, you must prove you can financially support the child) or family supports. People are estranged for a myriad of reasons but I think it is very interesting how isolated this family was from their extended family. Why would siblings not visit each other? How could the sister-in-law have met the kids just once at a funeral? It is a bit odd.

 

[Inthedetails]

Just as in giving birth, a parent doesn't need a plan for financial help (although in international adoption, you must prove you can financially support the child) or family supports. People are estranged for a myriad of reasons but I think it is very interesting how isolated this family was from their extended family. Why would siblings not visit each other? How could the sister-in-law have met the kids just once at a funeral? It is a bit odd.

I don't mean financial help - I mean with older parents (late 40s for the mom, unknown for the dad), you would think that an agency would ask for plans in case the older parents passed away while the children were minors. Who would be available to take in the children if needed?

But apparently that is not a question that is asked in the USA agencies.

Learn something new every day.